IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #166

[FrostedGlass]

Wow. Unbelievable. Thank you, I hadn’t seen this.

It's my own personal opinion that they may have been recording in hopes of reading his lips. They likely couldn't use that in court but it could possibly help them with their investigation. MOO

 

[Arkay]

As I understand the felony murder charge - the state has to prove that he committed a felony that led to the girl's death but not that he killed them. And that felony would be the kidnapping from the bridge.

From these Indiana specific links, it seems to be that Indiana state law has only one murder charge, not degrees like Murder 1 and Murder 2. Killing them is why there’s any sort of murder charge against him—-without him killing them he’d be charged with a different felony, (minus murder), such as kidnapping them from the bridge.

Screenshots then links:View attachment 448768View attachment 448768

 

[iamnotagolem]

I’m sure all prison guards wear body cams.

 

[10ofRods]

What do you think the reason is?

What JustTrish just said. IOW it’s first degree murder whether he intended to kill them or not. He kidnapped them (two felonies right there). So even if he didn’t intend to kill them, it’s treated as first degree under the felony murder rule. A death of a victim while another felony is being committed invokes the felony murder rule - and the jury will be instructed that no intent for murder is needed.

Same thing with Bryan Kohberger. He broke into a house (felony). So it’s first degree murder when he kills someone (even if he says it’s self-defense or passion or whatever).

 

[justtrish]

@Miya I have copy/pasted the charges and then the statue. What he was charged with carries a possible death sentence. It is in no way less than the (1) knowingly or intentionally kills another human being.. He didn't just knowingly and intentionally kill the girls, he first kidnapped them and who knows what else he had in mind with them possibly child molesting and/or rape. They didn't charge him with this offense because they aren't sure he killed them or somehow because it's lesser than the first option. They charged him with it because he did kidnap them, they have it on video, he did it with a gun and they have the girls saying something about a gun. He took them to another location and killed them. That is exactly what that (2) under murder is for and it carries the same possible sentence as the (1) does. It doesn't mean they aren't sure he did it or that maybe it was accidental while he was kidnapping them.

Sec. 1. A person who:

(1) knowingly or intentionally kills another human being;

(2) kills another human being while committing or attempting to commit arson, burglary, child molesting, consumer product tampering, criminal deviate conduct (under IC 35-42-4-2 before its repeal), kidnapping, rape, robbery, human trafficking, promotion of human labor trafficking, promotion of human sexual trafficking, promotion of child sexual trafficking, promotion of sexual trafficking of a younger child, child sexual trafficking, or carjacking (before its repeal);

Charges​

Hide all charge details
��

01	02/13/2017	35-42-1-1(2): Murder
	Statute 35-42-1-1(2) Degree MR
02	02/13/2017	35-42-1-1(2): Murder
	Statute 35-42-1-1(2) Degree MR

 

[O.Incandenza]

A lot of people are still debating if RA murdered the girls.

He confessed to his wife and mother at least 5 times! This should be a slam dunk for the prosecution. Why would you confess to your wife and mother of all people if you did not do it?

Murder suspect Richard Allen admitted 5 times to killing teen girls in recorded jail calls with wife, mom: docs

The Indiana man that allegedly killed two teenage girls on a hiking trail in 2017 admitted to the gruesome murders multiple times in prison phone calls to his wife and mother.

nypost.com

I think RA probably did it, but as others have pointed out, there's someone in the defense memorandum who confessed at separate times to two of his sisters. So I don't think "he confessed to family members" is a slam dunk argument by itself. False confessions really do happen, even if they seem inexplicable to most of us.

 

[O.Incandenza]

Felony murder IS Murder. It is murder committed during the commission of a felony

Sort of, but not really. You can be charged with felony murder if you kill someone during the commission of a felony. But you can also be charged with felony murder if you commit a felony and someone is killed or dies during it even if you didn't personally kill them and had no intent that they die.

For example, here's an Indiana felony murder case where the defendant was convicted because he kidnapped someone to help his friend escape custody and during the escape his friend was shot and killed by police. He didn't shoot his friend, he didn't intend for his friend to die, but he was still guilty of felony murder because his friend died during the commission of a felony that he took part in.

So RA would still be guilty of felony murder if he kidnapped L&A and someone else killed them.

 

[Miya]

From these Indiana specific links, it seems to be that Indiana state law has only one murder charge, not degrees like Murder 1 and Murder 2. Killing them is why there’s any sort of murder charge against him—-without him killing them he’d be charged with a different felony, (minus murder), such as kidnapping them from the bridge.

Screenshots then links:View attachment 448767View attachment 448768View attachment 448768View attachment 448772

Yeah, that still means that he isn't charged with killing them, just with a felony that led to their death. Just like I explained before. And what I'm trying to say with that is not that I don't think he did it or wasn't involved, I'm just wondering what evidence they have or don't have and why they can't charge him with murder. Why they don't think they can prove murder to a jury.

 

[justtrish]

Yeah, that still means that he isn't charged with killing them, just with a felony that led to their death. Just like I explained before. And what I'm trying to say with that is not that I don't think he did it or wasn't involved, I'm just wondering what evidence they have or don't have and why they can't charge him with murder. Why they don't think they can prove murder to a jury.

He is charged with murder. I copy/pasted his actual charge up above that came from the court docket. The charge is murder and the possible penalty is death.

 

[FrostedGlass]

Sort of, but not really. You can be charged with felony murder if you kill someone during the commission of a felony. But you can also be charged with felony murder if you commit a felony and someone is killed or dies during it even if you didn't personally kill them and had no intent that they die.

For example, here's an Indiana felony murder case where the defendant was convicted because he kidnapped someone to help his friend escape custody and during the escape his friend was shot and killed by police. He didn't shoot his friend, he didn't intend for his friend to die, but he was still guilty of felony murder because his friend died during the commission of a felony that he took part in.

So RA would still be guilty of felony murder if he kidnapped L&A and someone else killed them.

McLeland used Murder 2 on a Flora case that I'm following. Three defendants and one of them who was found guilty only knew of the planned robbery but didn't participate. The other two accused each other so who knows the truth.

GUILTY - IN - Willie Lee Smith Jr., 55, murdered during a meetup for sex, Flora, June, 2021 *2 Arrested*

Suspects in Lafayette man's murder held without bond until hearings [snips] Note: the murder happened in June but charges weren't filed until July. DELPHI, Ind. — Willie Lee Smith Jr. drove to Flora on Wednesday July 16 to have sex with Shianne Brooks-Brown for $80, according to probable cause...

www.websleuths.com

 

[FrostedGlass]

What JustTrish just said. IOW it’s first degree murder whether he intended to kill them or not. He kidnapped them (two felonies right there). So even if he didn’t intend to kill them, it’s treated as first degree under the felony murder rule. A death of a victim while another felony is being committed invokes the felony murder rule - and the jury will be instructed that no intent for murder is needed.

Same thing with Bryan Kohberger. He broke into a house (felony). So it’s first degree murder when he kills someone (even if he says it’s self-defense or passion or whatever).

Among the murder cases I follow in IN, MOO it's not a very common charge. Most go for plain ol' Murder.

Why would they not use M2 more often if it's easier to make their case?

 

[CGBSpender]

How It Is Possible to be Convicted of Murder Without Killing Anyone

The statute defining murder is very simple in Indiana. In order to convict someone of murder, the State must prove that: The Defendant; Knowingly; Killed; Another person. Can You Be Charged With Murder if You Never Killed Someone? This is by far the most common method in which individuals are...

banksbrower.com

 

[Miya]

He is charged with murder. I copy/pasted his actual charge up above that came from the court docket. The charge is murder and the possible penalty is death.

Richard Allen, charged with 2017 Delphi murders, held on $20 million bond

Richard Allen, who has been charged with the 2017 murders of Libby German and Abby Williams in Delphi, Indiana, has been ordered held on $20 million bond for two counts of felony murder.

abc7chicago.com

DELPHI, Ind. (WLS) -- Richard Allen, who has been charged with the 2017 murders of Libby German and Abby Williams in Delphi, Indiana, has been ordered held on $20 million bond for two counts of felony murder.

 

[O.Incandenza]

The crime scene description in the defense's memorandum helps me understand why the prosecution chose to charge RA with felony murder instead of the more usual murder with intent to kill. As others have pointed out, they have the same penalty in Indiana (not true in all states), so there' s no real penalty for doing it and the strangeness of the crime does at least raise the possibility BG might have had an accomplice waiting below in the woods.

I still think this was most likely a 1 man crime, but charging with felony murder instead of murder with intent to kill means you don't have to worry about that. You just need to prove that RA was BG.

 

[FrostedGlass]

Murder Sheet put up a new podcast, Q&A about the memorandum. Someone asked about flannel shirt guy and the couple arguing. The arguing couple was identified. Apparently the male was a person the online sleuthers looked at pretty hard. That one went right over my head.
At the 20:13mm

The Delphi Murders: The Franks Memorandum: Questions: Part One

In this episode, we will answer a litany of questions stemming from the Franks memorandum recently filed in the Delphi murders case. Send tips to murdersheet@gmail.com. The Murder Sheet is a production of Mystery Sheet LLC .

art19.com

 

[Springrain]

Okay, I'm not even going to get into my opinions about the alleged "white nationalist cult sacrifice", but I'm confused why a white nationalist group would even theoretically ritually sacrifice two very white young girls. I would expect a hate group like that to target minorities? That's the whole point of white nationalist groups, that they are bigoted and hateful towards minorities, not white schoolchildren. I would even go as far as to think that white nationalist groups who are set on killing somebody would be more likely to victimize a man/men or boy/boys rather than two young girls, murders and other crimes done by these groups are sadly very real, but most that I've read about targeted black/Asian/Hispanic men, often men who had relationships with white women. I'm not sure where Libby and Abby would fit into a similar situation. JMO

In my opinion, the fact that his defense team has to put forth a really, really weird theory like that, means that there is a lot of evidence that will come out and it will not be in RA's favor. All JMO

 

[justtrish]

What JustTrish just said. IOW it’s first degree murder whether he intended to kill them or not. He kidnapped them (two felonies right there). So even if he didn’t intend to kill them, it’s treated as first degree under the felony murder rule. A death of a victim while another felony is being committed invokes the felony murder rule - and the jury will be instructed that no intent for murder is needed.

Same thing with Bryan Kohberger. He broke into a house (felony). So it’s first degree murder when he kills someone (even if he says it’s self-defense or passion or whatever).

Yes after reading more on it, this charge is easier to prove and they don't have to prove he intentionally killed them (even though slitting throats seems very intentional to me). Juries are weird an can get hung up on small things. I was reading this article and they explain it very well how intentional murder can include manslaughter as a lesser included in case the jury can't come to an agreement on the 4th element of intentional killing. With murder committed during a felony they don't have to decide if it was intentional because that element doesn't have to be proven. Same penalty so why not charge it that way. It makes the jury less likely to convict on a lesser charge if they can't agree on intent.

Delphi Suspect Richard Allen Faces Murder Charges with Underlying Offenses, New Court Records Indicate

The suspect in the Delphi Murders is accused of a specific subsection of Indiana's murder statute which involves at least one underlying offense.

lawandcrime.com

"To secure a conviction on the basic charge, according to Indiana’s model jury instructions, the state must prove four elements beyond a reasonable doubt: (1) the defendant (2) killed (3) each specific victim in a (4) knowing and intentional matter.

That might sound simple, but at times, it is not.

Proving the fourth element can sometimes be vexing. "

Regardless of which underlying offense is at play, the murder charges — as they are currently listed under Ind. Code § 35-42-1-1(2) — will require prosecutors to prove as follows: (1) that the named defendant (2) killed (3) each specific victim (4) while “committing or attempting to commit” the underlying offense.

 

[Springrain]

Yes after reading more on it, this charge is easier to prove and they don't have to prove he intentionally killed them (even though slitting throats seems very intentional to me). Juries are weird an can get hung up on small things. I was reading this article and they explain it very well how intentional murder can include manslaughter as a lesser included in case the jury can't come to an agreement on the 4th element of intentional killing. With murder committed during a felony they don't have to decide if it was intentional because that element doesn't have to be proven. Same penalty so why not charge it that way. It makes the jury less likely to convict on a lesser charge if they can't agree on intent.

Count me in the camp who would rather they play it safe with the specific charge as long as they secure a conviction that has him behind bars for life. We don't need another Casey Anthony incident. JMO

 

[katydid23]

It would have taken time to interview individuals and have experts review crime scene photos. It doesn’t surprise it could take up to a year. When was the Defense allowed to view the crime scene photos and reports? I have a hard time seeing how one person could control both of them without one escaping? It’s so brutal and torturing I definately want anyone involved prosecuted!

I don't think it would be that hard for one grown man to control two terrified young girls. If he pointed the gun at one girl's head, the other would probably stay frozen in fear.

 

[Miya]

Okay, I'm not even going to get into my opinions about the alleged "white nationalist cult sacrifice", but I'm confused why a white nationalist group would even theoretically ritually sacrifice two very white young girls. I would expect a hate group like that to target minorities? That's the whole point of white nationalist groups, that they are bigoted and hateful towards minorities, not white schoolchildren. I would even go as far as to think that white nationalist groups who are set on killing somebody would be more likely to victimize a man/men or boy/boys rather than two young girls, murders and other crimes done by these groups are sadly very real, but most that I've read about targeted black/Asian/Hispanic men, often men who had relationships with white women. I'm not sure where Libby and Abby would fit into a similar situation. JMO

In my opinion, the fact that his defense team has to put forth a really, really weird theory like that, means that there is a lot of evidence that will come out and it will not be in RA's favor. All JMO

The defense claims in the memo because Abby's mom was "dating outside her own race".