IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #166

[FrostedGlass]

If BB still remains confident that she saw a younger man with poofy hair and a '65 Comet, then I'm doubtful she would be a helpful witness for the prosecution. Jmo.

So then what?

If there isn't any evidence linking RA to the scene or the girls (per the memorandum), will the juvenile witnesses who might have seen him 45 minutes earlier be believable enough?

BMcD's source told her about the bullet long ago and they weren't even sure it didn't belong to LE. And the only recorded interview with RA he said he left at 1:30.

Forget the Odinist stuff. Forget the fanfiction writing style. RA very well might be the guy, and there IS evidence to suggest that, imo, but I don't have a problem wondering about some of these things. It's crucial to get it right. Jmo.

If the jury is made up of people who have the utmost faith in the prosecutor, judge, etc, then yes, those 3 juveniles may be enough. IMO. I wouldn't consider the one who saw a man dressed in black a credible witness. I'd have to look at the PCA to get the exact wording of one of the other witnesses but I believe she said she didn't really get a look at him but believed that person to be a white male. She would be real iffy for me. That leaves one witness.

The bullet... I have some serious questions about that based on the search warrant return and things in the memorandum.

 

[photographer4]

It's my own personal opinion that they may have been recording in hopes of reading his lips. They likely couldn't use that in court but it could possibly help them with their investigation. MOO

Or, a bug was somewhere in the room that wasn't noticed. Recording devices are easy to hide in plain sight. We once had a cell phone wall charger that recorded audio and video as a nanny cam in my elderly' mother's room. We told her care givers there was one there, but didn't tell them where / what. Most forgot about it. None ever noticed it.

 

[M. Kay]

This may have been discussed a long time ago, but is it just me that see's a resemblance between the YBG sketch and the young fellow whose pics were uploaded to the anthony shots site.?

It' s not just you. I posted years ago, with others, thinking that his 'sketch' was posted to bring forth other young girls who might have had contact, thinking they were interacting with "him".

 

[FrostedGlass]

Or, a bug was somewhere in the room that wasn't noticed. Recording devices are easy to hide in plain sight. We once had a cell phone wall charger that recorded audio and video as a nanny cam in my elderly' mother's room. We told her care givers there was one there, but didn't tell them where / what. Most forgot about it. None ever noticed it.

I think they would be in big trouble for bugging the room. However, recording him for "safety purposes" is a little more passive. Defense was smart to put that on record.

 

[Inthedetails]

Other than what defence has put out in regard to the YBG sketch ^^, is there anything else to substantiate the claim about BB being the source for that sketch? (Somewhere else .. can't find it now .. someone posted that it was RA or possibly RA who gave that description ???)

This may have been discussed a long time ago, but is it just me that see's a resemblance between the YBG sketch and the young fellow whose pics were uploaded to the anthony shots site.? I'm not going to link to the young man's photos, but they are readily available in google images. This is in NO WAY to make insinuations about the young fellow, just thinking someone who may have been on the anthony shots site may have provided that description as a red herring.

Now that you say that, I can see a resemblance between Anthony_Shots and YBG. (And it goes without saying the real person behind the AS photo is in no way involved.)

jmo

 

[gremlin444]

Murder Sheet episode just released:

Todd Click, the detective cited in the Defense Memorandum claims Richard Allen's attorneys misrepresented the facts in a statement to the Murder Sheet

The Delphi Murders: Todd Click on the Franks Memorandum

In this episode, we will report on an exclusive statement from the former assistant chief of police from Rushville, Indiana: Todd Click. Send tips to murdersheet@gmail.com. The Murder Sheet is a production of Mystery Sheet LLC .

art19.com

 

[FrostedGlass]

This is a footnote that I came across and I have a couple of questions that someone might be able to answer.
What exactly is a narrative and what is the difference between a memorandum and any other legal document.

"The Defense only has a narrative that allegedly memorializes Westfall’s interview.
The Defense has requested both Holder’s and Westfall’s videotaped interviews."

 

[Miya]

No, he IS charged with killing them via the mechanism called "felony murder".

It's not as if felony murder is some lesser form of killing or carries a lesser sentence.

As others have noted, there is evidence on tape that RA kidnapped the victims, and their bodies showed they died at the place to which he brought them. That's enough.

What happened in between may or may not have been witnessed. Why muddy the waters when felony murder is a slam dunk?

The bolded part. If someone is charged with felony murder, they didn't have to kill anyone, see the many examples that have been posted above. And yes, again, makes me wonder what evidence they have or don't have, seems like there is no DNA for example, no fingerprints, etc. And also makes me wonder if they think others were involved.

 

[Arkay]

This is a footnote that I came across and I have a couple of questions that someone might be able to answer.
What exactly is a narrative and what is the difference between a memorandum and any other legal document.

"The Defense only has a narrative that allegedly memorializes Westfall’s interview.
The Defense has requested both Holder’s and Westfall’s videotaped interviews."

A narrative just means a story, with a beginning, middle and end. It may be fictional or it may be factual. Similar to how a narrator is the one telling a story.

A memorandum is just a memo, like when your boss sends you a memo to remind you of a meeting, or you create a shopping list to remember what to buy, for instance. A memo is short, factual and an aid to memory.

IMO saying that the narrative ALLEGEDLY memorializes the interview means that the Defense is telling a story, which ALLEGEDLY, so not proven, preserves the MEMORY of what Westfall said in his interview.

Therefore the Defense wants the videotaped interview so they can check what was ACTUALLY said in the interview.

Memo, memorandum, memorialize, commemorate, memorial all come from the same root as to remember. (Memorare).

Just replying to your question as I do not believe the Defense’s narrative.

IMO the 136- page memorandum is cobbled together from disparate sources, like Frankenstein, snatching pieces from various places to create a monster story.

I’m a teacher of English, not a lawyer, so I am unsure of what precisely determines the threshold for the legality of a document. Lawyers know, though.

IMO I would give more credence to the Defense memorandum if it were written in a distinguished and professional manner, not as mythology or fanfic scrawled by a breathless teenager.

memorandum | Etymology of memorandum by etymonline

MEMORANDUM: "(something) to be remembered," a note of something to be remembered for future reference or… See origin and meaning of memorandum.

www.etymonline.com

 

[gremlin444]

Murder Sheet episode just released:

Todd Click, the detective cited in the Defense Memorandum claims Richard Allen's attorneys misrepresented the facts in a statement to the Murder Sheet

The Delphi Murders: Todd Click on the Franks Memorandum

In this episode, we will report on an exclusive statement from the former assistant chief of police from Rushville, Indiana: Todd Click. Send tips to murdersheet@gmail.com. The Murder Sheet is a production of Mystery Sheet LLC .

art19.com

Summary: They received the statement this morning. Mr. Click (former Rushville Assistant Police Chief, now retired) is being careful of what he is saying because he doesn't want to violate the gag order and plans to speak to his attorney to find out the limits.

Exact quote from Mr. Click as read by the Murder Sheet hosts:

"There are two things that I would like to clear up immediately, though. Detective Ferency and Detective Murphy were not Rushville cops. Detective F was a detective from the Terre Haute police department that was assigned to the FBI Joint Terrorism Task Force. Detective Murphy was an Indiana State police detective that was also assigned to the FBI Joint Terrorism Task Force. So, the FBI was associated with the investigation until at least July 2021. Secondly, no one in law enforcement believes Abby and Libby were killed in a ritual in a ritual sacrifice. That is the defence twisting facts for sensationalism. You can quote me on those two items."

 

[Tealgrove]

A narrative just means a story, with a beginning, middle and end. It may be fictional or it may be factual. Similar to how a narrator is the one telling a story.

A memorandum is just a memo, like when your boss sends you a memo to remind you of a meeting, or you create a shopping list to remember what to buy, for instance. A memo is short, factual and an aid to memory.

IMO saying that the narrative ALLEGEDLY memorializes the interview means that the Defense is telling a story, which ALLEGEDLY, so not proven, preserves the MEMORY of what Westfall said in his interview.

Therefore the Defense wants the videotaped interview so they can check what was ACTUALLY said in the interview.

Memo, memorandum, memorialize, commemorate, memorial all come from the same root as to remember. (Memorare).

Just replying to your question as I do not believe the Defense’s narrative.

IMO the 136- page memorandum is cobbled together from disparate sources, like Frankenstein, snatching pieces from various places to create a monster story.

I’m a teacher of English, not a lawyer, so I am unsure of what precisely determines the threshold for the legality of a document. Lawyers know, though.

IMO I would give more credence to the Defense memorandum if it were written in a distinguished and professional manner, not as mythology or fanfic scrawled by a breathless teenager.

memorandum | Etymology of memorandum by etymonline

MEMORANDUM: "(something) to be remembered," a note of something to be remembered for future reference or… See origin and meaning of memorandum.

www.etymonline.com

^^^^^
And there you have it.

 

[Nova]

The bolded part. If someone is charged with felony murder, they didn't have to kill anyone, see the many examples that have been posted above. And yes, again, makes me wonder what evidence they have or don't have, seems like there is no DNA for example, no fingerprints, etc. And also makes me wonder if they think others were involved.

Miya, I'm the one who posted some of those examples! I know what felony murder is.

It may be the Delphi DA thinks other people could have been involved, or it may just be s/he is being careful and only charging what s/he knows s/he can prove: RA kidnapped the victims and they ended up dead. Under a theory of felony murder, the DA does not have to prove "intent to kill", just intent to commit the underlying felony (i.e., kidnapping).

As Boxer pointed out above, intent to kidnap is proven by the tape where RA says "down the hill".

 

[Springrain]

JMO I have seen a lot of doubt since RA's arrest about his guilt based on the fact that he is a shorter man and seemingly normal with no prior criminal history. I think a lot of people since the start of this case have perceived BG to be a weird-seeming lone wolf type who never married, acted odd to everyone (like stereotypes of how a serial killer would act) and had been arrested before at least once. Reality is that many, many murderers don't even come close to fitting this image. So I was not surprised when RA's identity was released and that he did not fit this profile at all. Most people just seem like regular people even if they are privately monsters. There are murderers, pedophiles, thieves, all sorts of criminals that walk around us daily and we don't know because they don't "seem" like they would do it. IMO that is a large contributor to people who seem nice and normal getting away with heinous crimes. To me this brings to mind known SKs like Dennis Rader, Joseph James DeAngelo, Ted Bundy, even Andrei Chikatilo, who had normal jobs and lives and seemed normal while being very much not normal. Many murderers are not the type you might envision because they look like normal people just like us, for the most part. Many killers don't have any red flags in their pasts, or at least not ones that we can see and point to, that point to them possibly becoming murderers. JMO.

 

[Nova]

What i find strange about US trials vs what I am used to (UK, commonwealth law) is how the Defence Attorney's are allowed to sock puppet wild theories into the trial based on wild speculation.

For instance, will RA testify at his Frank's hearing about the Odinist prison guards who are trying to railroad him for a crime he didn't commit?

Or is this just pure fanfic written by the defence which actually has nothing to do with the hearing

There are restrictions on what the defense can claim, even on this side of the Pond. But how "wild" is too wild depends on the judge (and eventually on appellate courts).

In theory the defense or prosecution can be sanctioned for asserting anything they know to be false, but proving what somebody "knew" when they filed a motion can be almost as difficult as the classic "proving a negative".

 

[kittythehare]

Summary: They received the statement this morning. Mr. Click (former Rushville Assistant Police Chief, now retired) is being careful of what he is saying because he doesn't want to violate the gag order and plans to speak to his attorney to find out the limits.

Exact quote from Mr. Click as read by the Murder Sheet hosts:

"There are two things that I would like to clear up immediately, though. Detective Ferency and Detective Murphy were not Rushville cops. Detective F was a detective from the Terre Haute police department that was assigned to the FBI Joint Terrorism Task Force. Detective Murphy was an Indiana State police detective that was also assigned to the FBI Joint Terrorism Task Force. So, the FBI was associated with the investigation until at least July 2021. Secondly, no one in law enforcement believes Abby and Libby were killed in a ritual in a ritual sacrifice. That is the defence twisting facts for sensationalism. You can quote me on those two items."

They won't like that.
Short and sweet and very very powerful.

if defense insist upon bringing this to court they will be met with a very strong rebuttal which in all likelihood will make them look like heedless clowns.

 

[Andieinsyd]

Summary: They received the statement this morning. Mr. Click (former Rushville Assistant Police Chief, now retired) is being careful of what he is saying because he doesn't want to violate the gag order and plans to speak to his attorney to find out the limits.

Exact quote from Mr. Click as read by the Murder Sheet hosts:

"There are two things that I would like to clear up immediately, though. Detective Ferency and Detective Murphy were not Rushville cops. Detective F was a detective from the Terre Haute police department that was assigned to the FBI Joint Terrorism Task Force. Detective Murphy was an Indiana State police detective that was also assigned to the FBI Joint Terrorism Task Force. So, the FBI was associated with the investigation until at least July 2021. Secondly, no one in law enforcement believes Abby and Libby were killed in a ritual in a ritual sacrifice. That is the defence twisting facts for sensationalism. You can quote me on those two items."

Thanks for this and thanks to Murder sheet for getting this out on a weekend.

Very interesting and I feel like that was a “drops mic and leaves stage” from Mr Click.

 

[Miya]

Miya, I'm the one who posted some of those examples! I know what felony murder is.

It may be the Delphi DA thinks other people could have been involved, or it may just be s/he is being careful and only charging what s/he knows s/he can prove: RA kidnapped the victims and they ended up dead. Under a theory of felony murder, the DA does not have to prove "intent to kill", just intent to commit the underlying felony (i.e., kidnapping).

As Boxer pointed out above, intent to kidnap is proven by the tape where RA says "down the hill".

I didn't say you didn't post examples, I was just saying to be charged and convicted of felony murder, you don't have to kill anyone and "see the examples", lol. I really don't care what they charge him with as long as it can be proven in court that he did it and/or was involved. And if that's the case, that they throw away the key.

I know I'm repeating myself, it just makes me wonder what evidence they have, not enough for murder maybe, or that others were involved (cult or not, there is the KK angle as well). And I hope, if others are involved (that doesn't even mean that they were there that day), that they go away for a long time as well and that LE makes sure to get everybody involved. If there are others, they are just as dangerous and should be locked up.

 

[girlhasnoname]

They won't like that.
Short and sweet and very very powerful.

if defense insist upon bringing this to court they will be met with a very strong rebuttal which in all likelihood will make them look like heedless clowns.

Too late, they are already the biggest headless clowns I've seen in a Defense team. Sheesh. moo

 

[MistyWaters]

The bolded part. If someone is charged with felony murder, they didn't have to kill anyone, see the many examples that have been posted above. And yes, again, makes me wonder what evidence they have or don't have, seems like there is no DNA for example, no fingerprints, etc. And also makes me wonder if they think others were involved.

That is not correct. Each State has their own Criminal Code. This is Indiana’s and what’s commonly referred to as felony murder. Notice the act of “killing” is a combined component of the crime.

See Section 35-42-1 (2)
“kills another human being while committing or attempting to commit……<> kidnapping

2022 Indiana Code :: Title 35. Criminal Law and Procedure :: Article 42. Offenses Against the Person :: Chapter 1. Homicide :: 35-42-1-1. Murder

Justia Free Databases of US Laws, Codes & Statutes

law.justia.com

 

[Nova]

I didn't say you didn't post examples, I was just saying to be charged and convicted of felony murder, you don't have to kill anyone and "see the examples", lol. I really don't care what they charge him with as long as it can be proven in court that he did it and/or was involved. And if that's the case, that they throw away the key.

I know I'm repeating myself, it just makes me wonder what evidence they have, not enough for murder maybe, or that others were involved (cult or not, there is the KK angle as well). And I hope, if others are involved (that doesn't even mean that they were there that day), that they go away for a long time as well and that LE makes sure to get everybody involved. If there are others, they are just as dangerous and should be locked up.

Again, you instructed me to "see examples" which included those I myself provided in the first place.

Even the post of mine you quoted demonstrated that I clearly know what felony murder is because I included a brief definition.

As for why the DA is going with a theory of felony murder, I think the answer has to be that s/he has no definitive evidence that shows an intent to kill. Whether that's because the DA thinks others were involved (which I find doubtful since s/he hasn't mentioned any others) or simply because the DA lacks witnesses to what took place once RA and the victims left the trail doesn't matter in terms of eventual sentencing, but it matters quite a bit in terms of the DA's burden of proof.

Felony murder is almost always easier to prove.