Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, and Liberty (Libby) German, 14/The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #88

[Falling Down]

I checked the distance from Monon high bridge to the local grain elevator. It’s 2.4
miles, 45 minutes walking distance, 15 minutes by bicycle; interesting detail from entrance of Monon high bridge trail
a person could easily cross the w300m
road and you come to train tracks that run directly into this property

FWIW, I drove by there to the place where the girls were dropped off, in August of '17. From Andersons (a driveway from C.R. 300 into the complex), to there was about 2 minutes or so, at 35 MPH (minus the slow down at the curve). Walking I'd say it's about 12 minutes or so. For reference I use the abandoned county building which is between C.R. 300 and IN-25, it's right by the Andersons complex.

A witness said the morning of Feb. 13th, 2017, she saw a white pick up parked at the abandoned building, when she went to lunch in Delphi. Approximately 11:30 AM. I'd imagine a walk from there, to the NW end of the bridge, would take around 20 minutes. It's a short walk from the abandoned building, to the Freedom Bridge where the High Bridge trail starts.

I don't have a link handy for the eyewitness' statement.

Interesting, Street View shows the abandoned building had been razed by August of 2018:

Google Maps

 

[CrimeDawg123]

I checked the distance from Monon high bridge to the local grain elevator. It’s 2.4
miles, 45 minutes walking distance, 15 minutes by bicycle; interesting detail from entrance of Monon high bridge trail
a person could easily cross the w300m
road and you come to train tracks that run directly into this property

FWIW, I drove by there to the place where the girls were dropped off, in August of '17. From Andersons (a driveway from C.R. 300 into the complex), to there was about 2 minutes or so, at 35 MPH (minus the slow down at the curve). Walking I'd say it's about 12 minutes or so. For reference I use the abandoned county building which is between C.R. 300 and IN-25, it's right by the Andersons complex.

A witness said the morning of Feb. 13th, 2017, she saw a white pick up parked at the abandoned building, when she went to lunch in Delphi. Approximately 11:30 AM. I'd imagine a walk from there, to the NW end of the bridge, would take around 20 minutes. It's a short walk from the abandoned building, to the Freedom Bridge where the High Bridge trail starts.

I don't have a link handy for the eyewitness' statement.

Interesting, Street View shows the abandoned building had been razed by August of 2018:

Google Maps

Sorry I missed it, but the importance of a grain elevator is what exactly? TIA

 

[Jabarn]

I can't find a MSM link for it yet, but here is some news from the court at MyCase.Gov:

APPOINTMENT OF DEPUTY PROSECUTING ATTORNEY - ROBERT T. IVES
04/10/2019
Oath Filed
Oath of Service filed.
Filed By: Ives, Robert T.
File Stamp: 04/10/2019
Case Search - MyCase

Apparently he's back? Could there possibly be a new development and he wants back on the team to finish the case since he was there from the beginning? This was a comment he made when he stepped down at the end of 2017:
Ives said if charges had been filed, he would not resign and try to see them through, and that he will be willing to offer any help to whomever replaces him.
Carroll Co. prosecutor to step down

That’s interesting, but not sure I lean toward a POI on the horizon, although hopeful. It might be Ives is coming back part time, not sure. I know some jobs like this allow a retiree to come back after a period of time and keep their retirement benefits, while earning an additional salary, if there is some need to bring them back. It could be a backlog of cases establishes a need. Not sure, but I am interested in this as well.

ETA: not sure if this is the program Ives would fall under to come back to work, but here is a link for consideration on how it works in Indiana for some state employees: INPRS: TRF Member Handbook: Working after Retirement

 

[book-thinker]

Sorry I missed it, but the importance of a grain elevator is what exactly? TIA

With BG’s ability to quickly cross over Monon high bridge, would his job skills include the ability to move easily on high structures like iron frames. The grain elevator is near Monon high bridge that’s the reason it was brought up. I hope that helps explain the grain elevator.

 

[TTF14]

With BG’s ability to quickly cross over Monon high bridge, would his job skills include the ability to move easily on high structures like iron frames. The grain elevator is near Monon high bridge that’s the reason it was brought up. I hope that helps explain the grain elevator.

I think his job skills (if he has one) also require a lack of a fear of heights (which of course goes with moving easily on high structures). I don't see anyone who is afraid of heights moving over that bridge with their hands in their pockets like it is no big deal. I'd be crawling across on all fours.

 

[NmJustSleuthinHbu]

The only problem I have with that is that if one is trying to escape, and escape fast, crossing a creek would not be the way to go. That would slow you down considerably. So to me it seems less likely that they crossed the creek in an attempt to escape.
In truth, it is hard to find a theory as to how or why they crossed the creek that actually makes good sense.

Although yall have sort of moved on from this a couple pages back, I just wanted to mention something.

I know one of the girls had been to the bridge several times before, but it seems likely that neither of them were familiar with the area immediately beyond the bridge (which appears to just be woods if you're standing on the far side of the bridge). Assuming that's true, then the (likely split-second) decision is this: run off into the woods where there is no certain help/shelter OR run back in the direction of the area you're familiar with and where you know there are other people (i.e. across the creek and following the bridge back to where they started). IMO, it seems extremely reasonable that they'd choose to run across the creek.

 

[NmJustSleuthinHbu]

I think his job skills (if he has one) also require a lack of a fear of heights (which of course goes with moving easily on high structures). I don't see anyone who is afraid of heights moving over that bridge with their hands in their pockets like it is no big deal. I'd be crawling across on all fours.

But people lacking a fear of heights work in all kinds of professions. Sure, working on tall structures seems to require that quality, but it's not like lack of that fear compels people to work on tall structures. This seems like a really flimsy premise to go off of. Someone not afraid of heights could just as easily be an "office drone" as they could be in any profession working on tall structures. It doesn't make sense to me to jump from "he must not be afraid of heights" to "he may have been working on the nearest tall structure".

 

[steeltowngirl]

Hey guys. I’m about done here. I have been following this case since the girls went missing...spent a good bit of time lurking before I started commenting. I just need a break from thinking about it and I feel for the families who cannot take a break.
You guys are amazing. Together we have discussed every aspect of this case to the tiniest detail. Every tree, every leaf, every pixel in that picture of BG. Every nuance of the audio. Every pervert mentioned within a thousand miles. Every theory. Every rumor. Every possibility. There is nothing left to talk about with the limited information we have.
Up until fairly recently LE used the public as an ally in fighting crime and solving cases. Not so anymore. Did it change because of social media? I don’t know but, in my opinion, it shouldn’t have. Police used to release pretty much everything about a case in hopes someone would recognize some aspect that would help solve it. They would keep a few things to themselves which was right. Now the norm is to release nothing, absolutely nothing. In this particular case it almost feels like the police feel like you and I are more the enemy than the actual killer. We are the ones they are fighting to defeat. They release nothing because they want to protect the integrity of the case they say, but none of that was necessary 10 or 15 years ago. Name a case that was thrown out because of something that was said or done by a member of the public after LE released some information. I’m sure there probably is one...somewhere...maybe. Now name how many cases were solved because a member of the public contacted police after hearing about some information LE released and it jogged their memory about something.
Let me be clear, I do not want info released so we can all know the lurid details, but after 2 years, LE is doing a disservice to the families and the community by continuing with this failing strategy. I know LE is working hard but two dozen POI after two years is nothing to crow about.
I hope something will break soon and I will jump back on here. I will check back in from time to time...just in case.
I need to not think about it for awhile. I guess this is what LE wants from all of us. To just go away. Stop thinking. But I won’t stop caring.

I hear ya. I remember we all had our hands slapped back in 2017 for sending in tips of offenders that were similar looking to their sketch. The Police even posted on their FB page, specifically calling out a web group I was involved in. It has been frustrating.

 

[gregjrichards]

Hey guys. I’m about done here. I have been following this case since the girls went missing...spent a good bit of time lurking before I started commenting. I just need a break from thinking about it and I feel for the families who cannot take a break.
You guys are amazing. Together we have discussed every aspect of this case to the tiniest detail. Every tree, every leaf, every pixel in that picture of BG. Every nuance of the audio. Every pervert mentioned within a thousand miles. Every theory. Every rumor. Every possibility. There is nothing left to talk about with the limited information we have.
Up until fairly recently LE used the public as an ally in fighting crime and solving cases. Not so anymore. Did it change because of social media? I don’t know but, in my opinion, it shouldn’t have. Police used to release pretty much everything about a case in hopes someone would recognize some aspect that would help solve it. They would keep a few things to themselves which was right. Now the norm is to release nothing, absolutely nothing. In this particular case it almost feels like the police feel like you and I are more the enemy than the actual killer. We are the ones they are fighting to defeat. They release nothing because they want to protect the integrity of the case they say, but none of that was necessary 10 or 15 years ago. Name a case that was thrown out because of something that was said or done by a member of the public after LE released some information. I’m sure there probably is one...somewhere...maybe. Now name how many cases were solved because a member of the public contacted police after hearing about some information LE released and it jogged their memory about something.
Let me be clear, I do not want info released so we can all know the lurid details, but after 2 years, LE is doing a disservice to the families and the community by continuing with this failing strategy. I know LE is working hard but two dozen POI after two years is nothing to crow about.
I hope something will break soon and I will jump back on here. I will check back in from time to time...just in case.
I need to not think about it for awhile. I guess this is what LE wants from all of us. To just go away. Stop thinking. But I won’t stop caring.

I understand the need to take a break cases like this can really crush your soul and make you wonder if there is any good in the world. Like many of you I have been here virtually daily since this horrific tragedy happened. I’m still convinced BG will be caught I just don’t know how long it is going to take. I look forward to seeing you back here at some point. Best wishes to you.

 

[Ozoner]

I understand the need to take a break cases like this can really crush your soul and make you wonder if there is any good in the world. Like many of you I have been here virtually daily since this horrific tragedy happened. I’m still convinced BG will be caught I just don’t know how long it is going to take. I look forward to seeing you back here at some point. Best wishes to you.

I hope that BG will be caught, charged with capital murder, convicted, and executed. My fear is that he will die of natural causes before he's identified. People think that he sounds like a smoker, and smokers aren't known for long lifespans.

 

[kizzykat]

That’s interesting, but not sure I lean toward a POI on the horizon, although hopeful. It might be Ives is coming back part time, not sure. I know some jobs like this allow a retiree to come back after a period of time and keep their retirement benefits, while earning an additional salary, if there is some need to bring them back. It could be a backlog of cases establishes a need. Not sure, but I am interested in this as well.

ETA: not sure if this is the program Ives would fall under to come back to work, but here is a link for consideration on how it works in Indiana for some state employees: INPRS: TRF Member Handbook: Working after Retirement

Thank you for the link. Yes, there are probably a number of possibilities for his return. It's easy to get discouraged but I so want to remain hopeful he's back to finish this case that occurred on his watch.

 

[book-thinker]

I’m watching HLN’s #very scary people
segment- Aileen Wuornos serial killer
the interesting thing is LE suspected
her in the murders. LE shifted investigators efforts into sending undercover cops that work mainly in drug cases, to various local bars looking for her. One undercover cop identified her and began hanging out with her. LE wanted to arrest and charge her for the murders.
The prosecutors didn’t feel like the
evidence of a solid case at time.

Let’s hope LE is watching BG and the prosecutor office is waiting for enough evidence to arrest him, and charge him for
Libby and Abby’s murder.

 

[gregjrichards]

I’m watching HLN’s #very scary people
segment- Aileen Wuornos serial killer
the interesting thing is LE suspected
her in the murders. LE shifted investigators efforts into sending undercover cops that work mainly in drug cases, to various local bars looking for her. One undercover cop identified her and began hanging out with her. LE wanted to arrest and charge her for the murders.
The prosecutors didn’t feel like the
evidence of a solid case at time.

Let’s hope LE is watching BG and the prosecutor office is waiting for enough evidence to arrest him, and charge him for
Libby and Abby’s murder.

That is something that it going to be very interesting to find out if BG is one of the dozen under watch or if he was ever on law enforcement’s radar once he has been arrested.

I want to thank you all for continuing to post in Abigail and Liberty’s thread and for not giving up on the case. I wish you all a pleasant weekend.

 

[crhedBngr]

Hey guys. I’m about done here. I have been following this case since the girls went missing...spent a good bit of time lurking before I started commenting. I just need a break from thinking about it and I feel for the families who cannot take a break.
You guys are amazing. Together we have discussed every aspect of this case to the tiniest detail. Every tree, every leaf, every pixel in that picture of BG. Every nuance of the audio. Every pervert mentioned within a thousand miles. Every theory. Every rumor. Every possibility. There is nothing left to talk about with the limited information we have.
Up until fairly recently LE used the public as an ally in fighting crime and solving cases. Not so anymore. Did it change because of social media? I don’t know but, in my opinion, it shouldn’t have. Police used to release pretty much everything about a case in hopes someone would recognize some aspect that would help solve it. They would keep a few things to themselves which was right. Now the norm is to release nothing, absolutely nothing. In this particular case it almost feels like the police feel like you and I are more the enemy than the actual killer. We are the ones they are fighting to defeat. They release nothing because they want to protect the integrity of the case they say, but none of that was necessary 10 or 15 years ago. Name a case that was thrown out because of something that was said or done by a member of the public after LE released some information. I’m sure there probably is one...somewhere...maybe. Now name how many cases were solved because a member of the public contacted police after hearing about some information LE released and it jogged their memory about something.
Let me be clear, I do not want info released so we can all know the lurid details, but after 2 years, LE is doing a disservice to the families and the community by continuing with this failing strategy. I know LE is working hard but two dozen POI after two years is nothing to crow about.
I hope something will break soon and I will jump back on here. I will check back in from time to time...just in case.
I need to not think about it for awhile. I guess this is what LE wants from all of us. To just go away. Stop thinking. But I won’t stop caring.

RBBM

@StarryStarryNight : I understand completely. Sometimes, one needs to step away, and clear one's head. Take care, and hope to see you back in the near future.

 

[PaulaDC]

Has anyone seen the story if
garrett kirts?

 

[JnRyan]

I’m watching HLN’s #very scary people
segment- Aileen Wuornos serial killer
the interesting thing is LE suspected
her in the murders. LE shifted investigators efforts into sending undercover cops that work mainly in drug cases, to various local bars looking for her. One undercover cop identified her and began hanging out with her. LE wanted to arrest and charge her for the murders.
The prosecutors didn’t feel like the
evidence of a solid case at time.

Let’s hope LE is watching BG and the prosecutor office is waiting for enough evidence to arrest him, and charge him for
Libby and Abby’s murder.

I've heard of many stories like this. Also cases like Patty Adkins where LE is almost certain who did it - just no evidence.
Patricia Ann Adkins – The Charley Project
Then we have cases like Tara Grinstead in Georgia. When LE arrested her killer they stated the killer 'wasn't even on their radar'. I don't believe he had even been questioned. Only when a girl friend called in a tip did LE know where to look.
I'm afraid that after 38K in tips and a $250K reward, LE has no idea here. It makes me wonder if they were able to ID the killer's DNA. (I believe LE has DNA - they just aren't if the DNA they have belongs to the killer.)

 

[kizzykat]

Has anyone seen the story if
garrett kirts?

Thanks for the update. I read about the NB murder when she was initially found and then ID'd, but I didn't realize there have been arrests. What caught my attention initially was the proximity to Delphi where she was found (50mi to the northwest) on rural property and the FBI was involved immediately.
They are saying she was tortured. Very tragic, she was a mom of little ones IIRC. Ironic one of those charged with assisting Kirts was a young woman from Delphi. He has reddish hair but his eyes look like they might be blue? MOO Pic and info at this link: Arrests made in homicide, torture of West Lafayette woman found near Kentland

 

[PaulaDC]

Thanks for the update. I read about the NB murder when she was initially found and then ID'd, but I didn't realize there have been arrests. What caught my attention initially was the proximity to Delphi where she was found (50mi to the northwest) on rural property and the FBI was involved immediately.
They are saying she was tortured. Very tragic, she was a mom of little ones IIRC. Ironic one of those charged with assisting Kirts was a young woman from Delphi. He has reddish hair but his eyes look like they might be blue? MOO Pic and info at this link: Arrests made in homicide, torture of West Lafayette woman found near Kentland

I was tired, meant of. But I looked at quite a few photos of him. The one that they show about his arrest doesn't look like the others. His shape and dress style, coloring and hair when he was younger is eerily similar in my opinion. But everyone looks like that to me lately.

 

[MntnHiker]

Although I don't post on this thread all that frequently, I read every day.

Man, I just thought having an actual PHOTO of this guy and his VOICE captured, we would have him by now. That might be the most perplexing part of this case for me, actually. I remember when they released the image of him, my thought was "Amazing! We'll get him. Within a few days, lots of people will be calling in with his name." Then silence.

This is the one thing that makes me feel like he was living quite a distance from Delphi at the time. Maybe he had previously been to Delphi and knew the area around the high bridge, but like others have hypothesized, his work took him there or through there or near there or he just purposely traveled from his home to commit crimes. The reason I think this is, though the photo is fairly grainy, if I KNEW this person, I would still be like "Hey, that looks an awful lot like so-and-so." However, if I lived across the country or even two states away from the crime scene, my doubts might creep in. "Well this looks like Bob (random name), but he lives in MN, so why would he be in IN?" And then not call it in because I doubt myself. Even if this guy kept to himself most of the time at home, he obviously did leave his house at times. SOMEONE has to know this person. I am so baffled on this.

Hoping for justice for these sweet girls and their families.

 

[TheVisual]

Although I don't post on this thread all that frequently, I read every day.

Man, I just thought having an actual PHOTO of this guy and his VOICE captured, we would have him by now. That might be the most perplexing part of this case for me, actually. I remember when they released the image of him, my thought was "Amazing! We'll get him. Within a few days, lots of people will be calling in with his name." Then silence.

This is the one thing that makes me feel like he was living quite a distance from Delphi at the time. Maybe he had previously been to Delphi and knew the area around the high bridge, but like others have hypothesized, his work took him there or through there or near there or he just purposely traveled from his home to commit crimes. The reason I think this is, though the photo is fairly grainy, if I KNEW this person, I would still be like "Hey, that looks an awful lot like so-and-so." However, if I lived across the country or even two states away from the crime scene, my doubts might creep in. "Well this looks like Bob (random name), but he lives in MN, so why would he be in IN?" And then not call it in because I doubt myself. Even if this guy kept to himself most of the time at home, he obviously did leave his house at times. SOMEONE has to know this person. I am so baffled on this.
Hoping for justice for these sweet girls and their families.

This is exactly what I did right after I saw the picture.