Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #107

[FinePrint]

TBH I’m not sure if there are any more billboards. There aren’t any in my area, but I’m pretty far away. I’d imagine they did use some to push out the new sketch. I know I’ve seen google pics with the time and the old sketch and a whole bunch without.

I haven’t seen any, was just on I -65 in the area all the way down to Indy and nothing.

 

[rosesfromangels]

It wouldn’t be unusual to see a local teen there and if other teens saw him he wouldn’t really stand out.

Respectfully snipped for focus.
IMO, teens would be able to recite to you in great detail who was there, what they were wearing, who they were talking to, what their hairstyle was, etc. This is a natural part of who teenagers are.

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[Cutiekitty]

Respectfully snipped for focus.
IMO, teens would be able to recite to you in great detail who was there, what they were wearing, who they were talking to, what their hairstyle was, etc. This is a natural part of who teenagers are.

Amateur opinion and speculation

Not my teen - most oblivious human currently on the planet. She’d definitely be able to tell you the things you mentioned, but ask what time someone left, or even what time she left, and you’d get crickets.

Not Delphi teen shaming, but if they weren’t totally sober they might not notice either.

Edit: what I meant by not standing out is it wouldn’t be weird to see another teen there. They may not be cognizant of the times people arrived and left. They would know they were there though.

 

[Falling Down]

Great description of how a lot of us feel about this case. What happened is so horrible, and it SEEMS like somebody should have recognized the photos/video but there's still no resolution and a bunch of family and friends with broken hearts. You're right, it is all so awful that it leaves you (including me) feeling tired. This is one I keep hoping WILL be solved and some heartless psycho will go to jail forever. :-(

My take on recent events in the case is there should have been a better effort early on to get the video of BG out, I don't understand why there's this selective whatever on the part of LE to pick and choose when to release such evidence. This case is special, in a way, because we have both video and audio of BG. Also, the nature of the crimes, not just one, but two juveniles murdered at the same time, and they were friends. I just find it strange there was a lack of a sense of urgency to get more key info out early on.

They said it's "complicated". My take on that is they further complicated the case by not releasing the video for 2+ years.

There are many cases where LE released video evidence from CCTV and similar cameras, as soon as evidence was discovered on them. Thousands of cases. Why wait over two years to release the video? The April 22nd PC was half of a nothingburger, in my book. A lot has happened in that area since February, 2017. The perp or perps could be running loose, or incarcerated.

Jumping off of that, I don't believe LE have workable DNA evidence. How many cases have been resolved since the Parabon tech and forensic genealogy stuff really got rolling, in recent years? It's becoming an avalanch of sorts, and yet nothing about DNA in the Delphi case being used to solve it?

In my eyes, BG and whoever he may have conspired with, if it comes down to that, feel no remorse, and think they are in total control of the situation. My opinion is people in that surrounding area know about who did it, but are afraid to come forward, and may have their own skeletons they're afraid of becoming public.

I believe there's a possibility some people in the surrounding area have been assaulted, or even murdered, in order to keep information about the perps and their 'activities' hush-hush. It just 'fits'. for me, and I agree with LE that the perp or perps are "hiding in plain sight". They've been in the surrounding area the whole time, and they don't think they'll be caught, at least not any time soon. They will stop at nothing to stay free, including mayhem and even meting out death. LE have plenty of resources on their end to find information they're looking for, but even that is limited in a way in our digital age. They need someone to come forward with the one tip that would blow the whole case wide-open.

The sad part is a lot of people might have to go down with the ship, I just have this gut feeling the case goes beyond BG, and have had a strong feeling about it since January.

MOO is this was a targeted attack, look at all of the other retaliation crimes, some brutal where people around there are disabled for life, and the rest deadly, in the last several years. It's all gang and drug-related.

JMO

-FD

 

[susiQ]

My take on recent events in the case is there should have been a better effort early on to get the video of BG out, I don't understand why there's this selective whatever on the part of LE to pick and choose when to release such evidence. This case is special, in a way, because we have both video and audio of BG. Also, the nature of the crimes, not just one, but two juveniles murdered at the same time, and they were friends. I just find it strange there was a lack of a sense of urgency to get more key info out early on.

They said it's "complicated". My take on that is they further complicated the case by not releasing the video for 2+ years.

There are many cases where LE released video evidence from CCTV and similar cameras, as soon as evidence was discovered on them. Thousands of cases. Why wait over two years to release the video? The April 22nd PC was half of a nothingburger, in my book. A lot has happened in that area since February, 2017. The perp or perps could be running loose, or incarcerated.

Jumping off of that, I don't believe LE have workable DNA evidence. How many cases have been resolved since the Parabon tech and forensic genealogy stuff really got rolling, in recent years? It's becoming an avalanch of sorts, and yet nothing about DNA in the Delphi case being used to solve it?

In my eyes, BG and whoever he may have conspired with, if it comes down to that, feel no remorse, and think they are in total control of the situation. My opinion is people in that surrounding area know about who did it, but are afraid to come forward, and may have their own skeletons they're afraid of becoming public.

I believe there's a possibility some people in the surrounding area have been assaulted, or even murdered, in order to keep information about the perps and their 'activities' hush-hush. It just 'fits'. for me, and I agree with LE that the perp or perps are "hiding in plain sight". They've been in the surrounding area the whole time, and they don't think they'll be caught, at least not any time soon. They will stop at nothing to stay free, including mayhem and even meting out death. LE have plenty of resources on their end to find information they're looking for, but even that is limited in a way in our digital age. They need someone to come forward with the one tip that would blow the whole case wide-open.

The sad part is a lot of people might have to go down with the ship, I just have this gut feeling the case goes beyond BG, and have had a strong feeling about it since January.

MOO is this was a targeted attack, look at all of the other retaliation crimes, some brutal where people around there are disabled for life, and the rest deadly, in the last several years. It's all gang and drug-related.

JMO

-FD

All I can add is WOW!! I wish I'd said it like that!!

 

[Krwiley60]

DBM

 

[PaulaDC]

DBM

 

[No it's not]

Some things that keep bugging me..Why do we only see the 2 pictures Libby had uploaded to snapchat? Is that all she took prior to the attack?

Did Libby take more pictures, but did not upload more? Then why not publish her pictures? Or did she not take more photographs despite being an avid photographer according to her family? If not, why not? They just did not take any pictures prior to getting on the High Bridge for no reason?
Or were Abby and Libby already followed by BG prior to getting on the bridge and did that distract them in any way, just not enough to get alarmed? Did BG possibly planned to attack them earlier, but had to abort his plans? Does LE really have the girls' phone..? I know they claimed they did...but..really?

Equally, I cannot understand, why BG would park his vehicle at the now not anymore existent CPS building, if that was indeed his vehicle. If he had planned anything nefarious, he could not have planned not being seen getting back to his vehicle. That would have been an additional unnecessary risk.

If the killer had truly planned to wait for anyone to enter the High Bridge, how could he have calculated, when he would catch up with his victim(s) plus not being seen or heard? If Abby and Libby had decided to walk back from the S to the N end of the bridge, would BG have risked an encounter over high grounds? And - if we hypothetically assumed he personally knew the victims, would he not have known, that the girls could have ran off towards Abby's home off the S end of the bridge? I therefore do not think any longer, that the murderer personally knew his victims. Any connection may be more superficial - if at all.

I can see a killer planning an attack in the park for whatever reason. It may not have been his intention at all to enter the High Bridge. Perhaps he got frustrated with Abby and Libby; perhaps he just intended to flash them and he realized they filmed him and he went overboard. Perhaps he staged a "serial style killing"..

Whatever happened In Delphi, I hope they will get the murderer soon. Very, very soon.

ALL IMO

-Nin

 

[sunshineray]

I just watched that show last night. I thought it was interesting that they had said it was unseasonable warm that day. The girls did not want to wear even their sweatshirts and this guy almost disappears into his heavy clothing. I will have to watch this again since I missed the part about the mother hearing a conversation by the girls. I do remember the narrator say they could not go back to their pickup point because they would have to pass this guy.
That conversation by the girls would change my theory of the girls knowing this guy....and I was so convinced of that . If this is true I will have to go back to square one.
The Mothers attitude about this horrific event seemed rather shallow with a cocky attitude. She bothered me , not the way I would think you would act when your child has been murdered.
But that's just me.

She seemed heartbroken to me. Grieving is a very personal thing that people have to learn to live with after something this tragic. I make no judgements on anyone else's grief and how they deal with it. We just don't know unless it's happened to us. I've known people that the only way they made it through another day was to smile and remember the good. Others who have completely shut off from life and everything in it. You just never know.

 

[sunshineray]

Yep. In that post the poster states the pic was at 2:07. They have no way of knowing when the pic was posted unless they saw it posted at exactly 2:07 and noted that 7 hours later. That’s why I think the 2:07 time that’s been used in almost all scenarios is wrong. I think it was actually posted shortly after they arrived (1:35-1:45). If I’m correct then there is more time between the initial encounter with BG and the final outcome.

Can't the LE get the records from the SnapChat people to confirm that time? Everything leaves a digital print, maybe not on the user's side but on the provider's end.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

TBH I’m not sure if there are any more billboards. There aren’t any in my area, but I’m pretty far away. I’d imagine they did use some to push out the new sketch. I know I’ve seen google pics with the time and the old sketch and a whole bunch without.

Flyers – Abby and Libby.org
There as well aren't any new flyers with NBG pictured.

 

[mtnlites]

BBM

What if this crime was not only not targeted, but not even planned at all...maybe it just unfolded as a random crime of opportunity? Maybe BG (a mentally unstable guy with a tramatic background and a quick fuse) had a really stressful morning (maybe an arguement with his parents, or got dumped by his girlfriend, or lost his job etc...) so decided to walk the trails to blow off steam. The bridge might be a place he went in his youth, and he might find comfort in being outdoors. He bundles up in a hoodie and jacket and maybe a hat and scarf, because its winter. He is not trying to disguise himself, just stay warm. He parks somewhere familiar at the CPS building (as locals often do) or cemetary. He is not worried about his car being spotted by anyone, as he has no criminal plans. He is carrying a gun and/or knife, not because he intends to harm anyone but because it is common to do so when hiking in rural Indiana. There is no 'kill kit'. At some point during his hike he spots Libby and Abby. For reasons unknown he is triggered by them and starts having dark impulses. Without even thinking he starts following them towards the bridge, creeping them. He enjoys following them, like a predator stalking its prey. It makes him feel powerful and in control and he forgets about his troubles. When he catches up with the girls at the end of the bridge there is nowhere else for him, or the girls, to go. He senses they are afraid, which feeds his ego. He can see that noone else is around. He impulsively pulls his weapon on the girls "Guys". They freeze out of fear. He then orders them "down the hill" to whisk them out of sight. He has no plan or contingency for if one/both run, but he is lucky they comply. At this point he can't believe what he has just done. He didn't mean for this to happen but knows there is no turning back now. He is in a panic but since he knows the trails well enough he is able to find a secluded spot to finalize his attack on the girls. He murders them quickly (to silence the witnesses) but possibly brutally and exits the area as fast as possible.

This is all JMO

Yeah, I'm not sold on the idea of this being pre-planned. If I had to fall on one side or the other, I'd lean towards this being an impulse and them being wrong time/wrong place. If he used any weapons then I think it's something he probably carried with him at all times anyway, like a knife.

 

[ZoriahNZ]

<modsnipped>

Next part snipped by me:

Some things that keep bugging me..Why do we only see the 2 pictures Libby had uploaded to snapchat? Is that all she took prior to the attack?

Did Libby take more pictures, but did not upload more? Then why not publish her pictures? Or did she not take more photographs despite being an avid photographer according to her family? If not, why not? They just did not take any pictures prior to getting on the High Bridge for no reason?
Or were Abby and Libby already followed by BG prior to getting on the bridge and did that distract them in any way, just not enough to get alarmed? Did BG possibly planned to attack them earlier, but had to abort his plans? Does LE really have the girls' phone..? I know they claimed they did...but..really?

Equally, I cannot understand, why BG would park his vehicle at the now not anymore existent CPS building, if that was indeed his vehicle. If he had planned anything nefarious, he could not have planned not being seen getting back to his vehicle. That would have been an additional unnecessary risk.

-Nin

I don't think it's particularly relevant how many pictures Libby took. We only have the 2 SC ones because she uploaded them to her acct and they were made public/leaked. There's nothing on them which can tell us about the murderer aside from the idea that both sides of the bridge appeared to be deserted at that time. If LE found pictures on her phone which were pertinent to the case, and showed clues as to the identity of the murderer, I think it would have been mentioned by now. Not that they'd be obligated to release them to the public, anyway.

LE really do have the girl's phone. Sgt. Holeman even confirms it on that half hour interview linked recently upthread. I'm not sure why this is still a sticking point.

The CPS building parking lot is apparently a run off parking space for the trail, wouldn't that be reason enough? Perhaps less noticeable than a car right at the drop off point, or cemetery, but still plausibly used for trail-goers. There's even a concrete path leading from there directly to the Freedom Bridge and to the western start of the Monon trail. If you go look on Google Earth and check the historical snapshots, you can see it wasn't there before the Freedom bridge was constructed.

 

[tresir2012]

<modsnipped>

Next part snipped by me:



I don't think it's particularly relevant how many pictures Libby took. We only have the 2 SC ones because she uploaded them to her acct and they were made public/leaked. There's nothing on them which can tell us about the murderer aside from the idea that both sides of the bridge appeared to be deserted at that time. If LE found pictures on her phone which were pertinent to the case, and showed clues as to the identity of the murderer, I think it would have been mentioned by now. Not that they'd be obligated to release them to the public, anyway.

LE really do have the girl's phone. Sgt. Holeman even confirms it on that half hour interview linked recently upthread. I'm not sure why this is still a sticking point.

The CPS building parking lot is apparently a run off parking space for the trail, wouldn't that be reason enough? Perhaps less noticeable than a car right at the drop off point, or cemetery, but still plausibly used for trail-goers. There's even a concrete path leading from there directly to the Freedom Bridge and to the western start of the Monon trail. If you go look on Google Earth and check the historical snapshots, you can see it wasn't there before the Freedom bridge was constructed.

The reason everything is a sticking point and being questioned is because of LE's handling of this. Holeman is the one who hailed the OBG almost as a masterpiece when it came out, now it's nothing. Also, for more than 2 years the public have asked for the video and more audio if possible and all LE said was oh no protecting integrity etc etc. Then they issue one more word "Guys" and the video - then say he is local or has a connection to Delphi, without saying why they suddenly change tack on this. So what has changed? Has the last two years been wasting time chasing tips from that old sketch? Now they bring out a sketch they had all along? If people are now doubting everything they have said, then it is completely justified IMO. I feel so upset for the families - it must be devastating.

 

[Thelastleg]

Some things that keep bugging me..Why do we only see the 2 pictures Libby had uploaded to snapchat? Is that all she took prior to the attack?

Did Libby take more pictures, but did not upload more? Then why not publish her pictures? Or did she not take more photographs despite being an avid photographer according to her family? If not, why not? They just did not take any pictures prior to getting on the High Bridge for no reason?
Or were Abby and Libby already followed by BG prior to getting on the bridge and did that distract them in any way, just not enough to get alarmed? Did BG possibly planned to attack them earlier, but had to abort his plans? Does LE really have the girls' phone..? I know they claimed they did...but..really?

Equally, I cannot understand, why BG would park his vehicle at the now not anymore existent CPS building, if that was indeed his vehicle. If he had planned anything nefarious, he could not have planned not being seen getting back to his vehicle. That would have been an additional unnecessary risk.

If the killer had truly planned to wait for anyone to enter the High Bridge, how could he have calculated, when he would catch up with his victim(s) plus not being seen or heard? If Abby and Libby had decided to walk back from the S to the N end of the bridge, would BG have risked an encounter over high grounds? And - if we hypothetically assumed he personally knew the victims, would he not have known, that the girls could have ran off towards Abby's home off the S end of the bridge? I therefore do not think any longer, that the murderer personally knew his victims. Any connection may be more superficial - if at all.

I can see a killer planning an attack in the park for whatever reason. It may not have been his intention at all to enter the High Bridge. Perhaps he got frustrated with Abby and Libby; perhaps he just intended to flash them and he realized they filmed him and he went overboard. Perhaps he staged a "serial style killing"..

Whatever happened In Delphi, I hope they will get the murderer soon. Very, very soon.

ALL IMO

-Nin

Just when I think I have got the lay out of the route the girls took in my head, I read something else and get confused again. I thought that Abby and Libby made their way from the drop off point and headed to the bridge from the South West side. They then crossed the bridge to North East end and that is where BG forced them down the hill. From there they somehow got across the creek and ended up in woods near the cemetery. Could someone put me straight please?

 

[mtnlites]

<modsnipped>

Next part snipped by me:



I don't think it's particularly relevant how many pictures Libby took. We only have the 2 SC ones because she uploaded them to her acct and they were made public/leaked. There's nothing on them which can tell us about the murderer aside from the idea that both sides of the bridge appeared to be deserted at that time. If LE found pictures on her phone which were pertinent to the case, and showed clues as to the identity of the murderer, I think it would have been mentioned by now. Not that they'd be obligated to release them to the public, anyway.

LE really do have the girl's phone. Sgt. Holeman even confirms it on that half hour interview linked recently upthread. I'm not sure why this is still a sticking point.

The CPS building parking lot is apparently a run off parking space for the trail, wouldn't that be reason enough? Perhaps less noticeable than a car right at the drop off point, or cemetery, but still plausibly used for trail-goers. There's even a concrete path leading from there directly to the Freedom Bridge and to the western start of the Monon trail. If you go look on Google Earth and check the historical snapshots, you can see it wasn't there before the Freedom bridge was constructed.

Yeah, I just assumed that those pictures haven't been shared with us because they're not relevant in identifying BG. Perhaps the families want to keep those images private and not share them with the whole world to have them analyzed and picked to death. The girls' murders with the theories and rumors and facts have become such a hot topic of conversation that I could see wanting to save those last few images, images not helpful in identifying their killer, to myself. Something private and special just for close family and friends.

And yes, the CPS lot was more or less a parking runoff. The park has never had much in the way of an actual parking lot. Get more than a few cars there and you almost have to park at that old building. There really isn't anyplace where BG could've parked that wouldn't have been noticeable unless he'd parked in the private drive in one of those nearby houses-but even then the landowners would've noticed.

 

[Cutiekitty]

Can't the LE get the records from the SnapChat people to confirm that time? Everything leaves a digital print, maybe not on the user's side but on the provider's end.

Yes they can and I’m sure they did. The time hasn’t been confirmed publicly by LE though.

 

[HEY YOU!]

I think BG used a gun to control the girls ...points it at them, says 'guys, down the hill.' Then he uses some other method to kill them. BG knew if he used the gun, the bullet could be traced back to it. Maybe it was his parent's gun and they would possibly suspect him if found it was used in a crime. Maybe it was an uncommon gun and BG knew that it was registered and he would be a suspect.

 

[HEY YOU!]

Who found the girls?

 

[Charlot123]

<modsnipped quoted post and response>
One case, GSK, involved an ex-cop, and several other ones, security officers, so statistically it is not out of the realm of possibility.

We need a good profiler. Our POIs vary from *advertiser censored*-obsessed loners to people in «people's» professions to junkies to truck drivers. I think a decent profiler is much needed.