Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #108

[tresir2012]

what's your theory about the railroad?

someone could appeal younger if they look younger than their age in person, so they are 40 but appear 30. almost as if to say we think they are older but they look young so that's why the age range is 18-40.

person is more in 30-side but may look young.

This reminds me that TB in the Catholic Supply case had a young picture of himself on one of his SM platforms. He had hair in the pic and was about 30 years younger.

 

[TL4S]

I still think it could have been an abduction in a vehicle and around to the cemetery, then him directing them down the hill to the crime scene. The"Guys" bit is at the bridge end and the down the hill is at the cemetery. He could still have murdered them within minutes and be gone from the cemetery before 3.30 and then return to help in the search at 5.30 p.m. IMO

I get where you're coming from, trying to find a way to get the girls from the end of the bridge to their ultimate location without crossing the creek. I'm not sure about it, though.

I looked on the map and the drive time from the road south of the bridge and around to the cemetery (via either 1 of the 2 available routes) is about 13 minutes. 10 if you're speeding. IMO, he would not risk being seen with the two girls in his vehicle, hope to find a parking spot where he can get them out and under control without anyone observing, and walk them to a spot less than 600 ft away from the location he originally abducted them from, within sight of the bridge, and in earshot of homes and trail users. That's a big undertaking that, IMO, carries too many complexities.

If he'd had them in a vehicle, they would likely have been found in a more isolated area much farther away. JMO

 

[tresir2012]

I get where you're coming from, trying to find a way to get the girls from the end of the bridge to their ultimate location without crossing the creek. I'm not sure about it, though.

I looked on the map and the drive time from the road south of the bridge and around to the cemetery (via either 1 of the 2 available routes) is about 13 minutes. 10 if you're speeding. IMO, he would not risk being seen with the two girls in his vehicle, hope to find a parking spot where he can get them out and under control without anyone observing, and walk them to a spot less than 600 ft away from the location he originally abducted them from, within sight of the bridge, and in earshot of homes and trail users. That's a big undertaking that, IMO, carries too many complexities.

If he'd had them in a vehicle, they would likely have been found in a more isolated area much farther away. JMO

In the trunk or went willingly if he was a coach or LE or ?

Holman is saying it is similar to Iowa. We know the Iowa girls were abducted in a vehicle because of the distance. That has to be one of few similarities because there was no cause of death in that case because of their decomposition. MOO.

 

[TL4S]

In the trunk or went willingly if he was a coach or LE or ?

Even if that were the case, once in the vehicle, he could have brought them anywhere. Why drive back around to the cemetery and kill them in a relatively public place so close to where he'd abducted them?

The similarities we know of with Iowa are two young girls killed and left on the woods. I'd be curious what LE knows.

 

[Spy Versus Spy]

Maybe they the Girls crossed the Creek elsewhere, not where we logically assume( across from the body location)?

This would explain both the LEO comment that they did infact cross the Creek, but also why no crime scene tape was seen on the either bank close to the body location?

Are there any other viable cross points in any narrative or scenarios?

Speculation and moo

 

[ZoriahNZ]

The road by the south end of the bridge is a private drive. One way goes to a house very shortly, a dead end. The other does eventually get to a public road (N 625 W) but it's actually gated along the way. Videographers have documented this, going to the area and driving around (they found the gate locked). So unless you know the people who own the property on that side, I don't see how you'd get easy access along the private drive that way.

Bonnie Rame posted up a video on YT walking along the bridge to the SE end on April 5 2017. You can see the police CS tape cordoning off an area there, pretty much were the bridge ends. Title of the vid is Monon High Bridge in Delphi Indiana

 

[Cutiekitty]

I get where you're coming from, trying to find a way to get the girls from the end of the bridge to their ultimate location without crossing the creek. I'm not sure about it, though.

I looked on the map and the drive time from the road south of the bridge and around to the cemetery (via either 1 of the 2 available routes) is about 13 minutes. 10 if you're speeding. IMO, he would not risk being seen with the two girls in his vehicle, hope to find a parking spot where he can get them out and under control without anyone observing, and walk them to a spot less than 600 ft away from the location he originally abducted them from, within sight of the bridge, and in earshot of homes and trail users. That's a big undertaking that, IMO, carries too many complexities.

If he'd had them in a vehicle, they would likely have been found in a more isolated area much farther away. JMO

I’ve been considering that they walked back across the bridge to a vehicle in the drop off area. I wasn’t thinking abduction though - more voluntary. He could’ve parked at the CPS building because he was there earlier in the day, driven down to the drop off area when he saw the SC post and gone from there. This could’ve been a situation that started out somewhat innocent and ended in murder. It’s a bit convoluted and I’m not totally sold on it.

 

[tresir2012]

Even if that were the case, once in the vehicle, he could have brought them anywhere. Why drive back around to the cemetery and kill them in a relatively public place so close to where he'd abducted them?

The similarities we know of with Iowa are two young girls killed and left on the woods. I'd be curious what LE knows.

Maybe he had to be at work in a short time or to get his alibi sorted. LE thinks he may work in Delphi. Also, if local and he did not join the search that could look even more suspicious. MOO.

 

[tresir2012]

The road by the south end of the bridge is a private drive. One way goes to a house very shortly, a dead end. The other does eventually get to a public road (N 625 W) but it's actually gated along the way. Videographers have documented this, going to the area and driving around (they found the gate locked). So unless you know the people who own the property on that side, I don't see how you'd get easy access along the private drive that way.

Bonnie Rame posted up a video on YT walking along the bridge to the SE end on April 5 2017. You can see the police CS tape cordoning off an area there, pretty much were the bridge ends. Title of the vid is Monon High Bridge in Delphi Indiana

I don't believe it was locked before the murders but MOO.

Also the drop off parking area opposite Mears was permanently closed after the murders as well.

 

[susiQ]

It is hard for me to imagine that this was an attempted abduction. Can anybody cite an abduction or attempted abduction under circumstances anywhere near similar to the circumstances of this case?

As for not being solved....for all we know, this case may be all but solved. And, it seems to me that the solution will be a case of the perp hiding in plain site. I'll take LE's word for it.

Yes, by revealing the killer is local, LE significantly narrowed the suspect pool! I have a feeling though that they have some DNA issues. Perhaps DNA found is from someone whose DNA can easily be explained away, for instance someone who frequented the property for other legitimate reasons? Or, they don’t. Just a thought. I do believe this is a very “complicated” case and while they may be on the right track they desperately need help from someone. Problem is, that someone may come from the same depraved world. MOO

 

[TL4S]

Maybe he had to be at work in a short time or to get his alibi sorted. LE thinks he may work in Delphi. Also, if local and he did not join the search that could look even more suspicious. MOO.

IMO, "local" could mean anywhere in a 30 mile radius from Delphi. I just don't think every single local person helped in the search, either, plus it was a weekday, so people were working. JMO

 

[MingyMoo]

How about this for a Websleuth theory. Considered because of something that has happened to me today. Its with reference to the mobile phone and the voice recording.

Today my husband called me. From his mobile to our land line. We finished our call and he appeared to call again. I picked up all I got was the sounds of my husband walking.

I know my Husband keeps his mobile phone in his jeans/trouser pocket. It is the 2nd time this week it has happened to me. Two different people

Is it just possible BG took the phone from Libby, put it in his pocket and it automatically re-dialled last number called or some other random number in Libby’s contact details.

So the theory is BG snatched the phone

He snatched the phone because he realised he was being photographed or recorded

They were killed because BG wasn’t meant to be where he was and was now identifiable by Libby and Abby

I am hoping beyond hope their murders were not sexually orientated and to some extent believe they were in the wrong place at the wrong time seen by and saw the wrong person.

BG didn’t realise Libby's Mobile automatically redialed someone as he put it in his pocket. The someone didn’t pick the phone up or it went straight to voice mail and recorded for as long as it could.

I listened to my husband for over 5 mins trying to shout down the phone you are still connected but that was his mobile to our landline he didn’t hear me ultimately I disconnected.

My understanding is you can only leave a voice mail on a mobile voice messaging service for 3 minutes before it cuts off. Although I did hear more than 5 mins of my colleague who had accidentally put his mobile phone in his pocket and called my mobile and left a message inadvertently . And that was last Saturday. I am sure he would be shocked and horrified

In turn what that means is there is no lock on the phone. Strange that because without the PIN I can’t call anyone but the emergency services.

As I say just throwing it out there based on recent personal events and in my Own Humble Opinion. I still think maybe naively the girls were quite simply in the wrong place at the wrong time and spotted something/someone who was out of place doing something wrong or someone they recognised that was out of place.

MingyMoo

 

[sunshineray]

I was watching the ID Discovery thing on this case; I followed it loosely so don't know what would be wrong with my theories since I have not followed it that closely. But could it be that the girls were going there to meet a boy that they met on the internet or a boy they knew? Why would the girls go there on a school day? If it was someone they met on the internet that would explain why perhaps the video was taken -they realized that the person approaching was not a 14 year old boy.

However, I would think if there was internet chat they would have figured that out by now. If it was not someone from internet (I have also been watching "Web of Lies" and there are lots of stories with the internet and young girls), I don't think the video would have been deliberate. No adult - let alone a child - would, in a moment of danger be thinking to kick their shoes off to leave evidence or leave a video for someone to find them; it happens in a split second and no one would think through this chain of events.

I also think he had to have a weapon, a gun most likely, especially if it was a stranger. Otherwise how would he have been able to restrain two girls? He would have had to tie them up if no gun because otherwise one could have gotten away.

How deserted is the area? would anyone have heard them? It had to have taken some time to do the murders and clean up- would no one else have gone by? The bodies were not found in the same area- he would have had to march them somewhere since I doubt he could have carried 2 girls though the woods so he had to have some measure of control over them (through a weapon or really knowing them well, or have been in a position of authority over them like clergy or a teacher, otherwise I don't think then girls would have marched through the woods for an aquaintance); it looks like it was quite a distance, they would have run. He could have caught one but he could not catch two running girls. Wouldn't the video/audio have captured the murders?

This incident calls to mind something I saw on Oprah. they said never ever go to the second location. Nothing good ever comes from that second location.

I also think it had to have been planned; it would not be a random person that came across them right then. He either knew they would be there that day or else saw them earlier and planned on the spur of the moment. If it was not a populated location, why would someone go there with a gun or rope-if he wanted to do something that day, he would have went to a place where there would be more people around. It was just random chance if he was a predator that he would encounter the girls there on a school day in middle of winter no less.

And BG has to be the killer. What are the chances that there's a photo taken right at time of the murder in a deserted location? And if that person was there innocently, I would have thought they would have come forward, submitted DNA, etc. and cleared themselves.

The tone of the talking is odd. Would a random predator call the girls "guys"? It's a somewhat casual term.

And why isn't DNA solving this case? If it is someone close like LE imply couldn't they test many of the people in the town of 3,000 (so what maybe 500 age-appropriate males?) and at least through familial DNA find the perp?

The kids had a day off from school. I was thinking about this. Have you ever been driving around your town and you see kids out and about and you what the heck, why aren't these kids in school? It's happened to me, when mine were already long out of school. Then you'll ask, say something to the next person you encounter and someone will say to you yeah they have a day off today because...whatever the reason. It's possible this could be how BG wound up on the trails that day. Just a thought, wouldn't it be great if someone remembered being asked that by "him". Maybe he has a job that he has to travel on the roads during the work day?

Or the exact opposite can be true, he had that info of the kids being off because he still has a connection with school age kids?

I think "Guys" sounds like someone who is used to addressing mixed gender groups in some capacity. That he didn't say "Girls" could mean, stressing the "could", that either it's not in his mental comfort zone to address females in the feminine (underlying misogynistic) or he's just used to addressing mixed groups with the much used masculine "Guys". Or it's just the way he talks all the time, gender nuetral, just because.

Just a couple things you made me think about with your post.

 

[BNA]

The kids had a day off from school. I was thinking about this. Have you ever been driving around your town and you see kids out and about and you what the heck, why aren't these kids in school? It's happened to me, when mine were already long out of school. Then you'll ask, say something to the next person you encounter and someone will say to you yeah they have a day off today because...whatever the reason. It's possible this could be how BG wound up on the trails that day. Just a thought, wouldn't it be great if someone remembered being asked that by "him". Maybe he has a job that he has to travel on the roads during the work day?

Or the exact opposite can be true, he had that info of the kids being off because he still has a connection with school age kids?

I think "Guys" sounds like someone who is used to addressing mixed gender groups in some capacity. That he didn't say "Girls" could mean, stressing the "could", that either it's not in his mental comfort zone to address females in the feminine (underlying misogynistic) or he's just used to addressing mixed groups with the much used masculine "Guys". Or it's just the way he talks all the time, gender nuetral, just because.

Just a couple things you made me think about with your post.

I walk quite a bit, mostly in the woods, but also around my small town.

If/when I cross paths with a group of girls of any age, I will give them a nod and say: "Ladies." For the older girls, I consider it a way to show respect, and the younger kids get a kick out of being called ladies. I imagine.

Maybe that's just mostly me. I have seen that from others, tho.

Anyway, maybe that is the reason LE wants us to think about "Guys."

I realize the word is common usage. But, it still seems odd to me.

 

[TL4S]

I’ve been considering that they walked back across the bridge to a vehicle in the drop off area. I wasn’t thinking abduction though - more voluntary. He could’ve parked at the CPS building because he was there earlier in the day, driven down to the drop off area when he saw the SC post and gone from there. This could’ve been a situation that started out somewhat innocent and ended in murder. It’s a bit convoluted and I’m not totally sold on it.

Yeah, every scenario I can imagine has a snag, mostly because the indisputable facts are few and far between.

One of the most vital pieces of information to me is from what BP said about the girls talking on the bridge video. IMO, it sounded like she thought they were discussing where to go so they could avoid him. For me, that takes out all the theories involving them doing anything with him voluntarily. But I could also be interpreting things incorrectly.

 

[BNA]

Yeah, every scenario I can imagine has a snag, mostly because the indisputable facts are few and far between.

One of the most vital pieces of information to me is from what BP said about the girls talking on the bridge video. IMO, it sounded like she thought they were discussing where to go so they could avoid him. For me, that takes out all the theories involving them doing anything with him voluntarily. But I could also be interpreting things incorrectly.

What concerns me is that same "snag" that we all come up against is a snag that prevents the witness they are waiting from connecting the dots.

MOO, but LE is going to have to reveal more, and do so in a more transparent fashion than they have, if they are really waiting for a light bulb to come on over a witness' head. And, they need to consider that said witness might be thick as a brick.

 

[Gumbeaux]

I could post this anywhere on WS, but I watched a most interesting discussion on YouTube.

Peter Hyatt is a statement analyst, and wow! He really reveals how unintentionally revealing anyone’s statement can be. Some examples would be instinctive for sleuthers to cue in on, but his expertise is quite illuminating.

Search statement analyst Peter Hyatt on YouTube, there are multiple videos.

 

[sunshineray]

How about this for a Websleuth theory. Considered because of something that has happened to me today. Its with reference to the mobile phone and the voice recording.

Today my husband called me. From his mobile to our land line. We finished our call and he appeared to call again. I picked up all I got was the sounds of my husband walking.

I know my Husband keeps his mobile phone in his jeans/trouser pocket. It is the 2nd time this week it has happened to me. Two different people

Is it just possible BG took the phone from Libby, put it in his pocket and it automatically re-dialled last number called or some other random number in Libby’s contact details.

So the theory is BG snatched the phone

He snatched the phone because he realised he was being photographed or recorded

They were killed because BG wasn’t meant to be where he was and was now identifiable by Libby and Abby

I am hoping beyond hope their murders were not sexually orientated and to some extent believe they were in the wrong place at the wrong time seen by and saw the wrong person.

BG didn’t realise Libby's Mobile automatically redialed someone as he put it in his pocket. The someone didn’t pick the phone up or it went straight to voice mail and recorded for as long as it could.

I listened to my husband for over 5 mins trying to shout down the phone you are still connected but that was his mobile to our landline he didn’t hear me ultimately I disconnected.

My understanding is you can only leave a voice mail on a mobile voice messaging service for 3 minutes before it cuts off. Although I did hear more than 5 mins of my colleague who had accidentally put his mobile phone in his pocket and called my mobile and left a message inadvertently . And that was last Saturday. I am sure he would be shocked and horrified

In turn what that means is there is no lock on the phone. Strange that because without the PIN I can’t call anyone but the emergency services.

As I say just throwing it out there based on recent personal events and in my Own Humble Opinion. I still think maybe naively the girls were quite simply in the wrong place at the wrong time and spotted something/someone who was out of place doing something wrong or someone they recognised that was out of place.

MingyMoo

Did the LE ever say the phone was found, in all the interviews or the CrimeCon panels?

 

[susiQ]

Abduction and murder is still possible in 59 minutes but maybe not taken very far away. Maybe the shack theory is likely after all. MOO

Starting to wonder about that too as a possibility, especially if he had an accomplice. JMO

 

[Cutiekitty]

Yeah, every scenario I can imagine has a snag, mostly because the indisputable facts are few and far between.

One of the most vital pieces of information to me is from what BP said about the girls talking on the bridge video. IMO, it sounded like she thought they were discussing where to go so they could avoid him. For me, that takes out all the theories involving them doing anything with him voluntarily. But I could also be interpreting things incorrectly.

That’s only a slight snag for me. Could’ve been a family friend that one or both knew, but didn’t totally care for. At their age they might feel obligated to go with them even if they didn’t like him or if he gave them the creeps. My kid can be mortal enemies with someone and an hour later they are besties - middle school relationships are weird. Like I said, I’m not completely sold on this, but I can see something like this happening.

What I find puzzling is BP mentioned this conversation about BG a couple of times I think, but I haven’t read where AW confirms the girls apprehension toward BG. I saw where she said they said they talked about the path ending. Was she not privy to the same info or did she interpret their reaction differently?

I might not have seen her reaction to the additional footage or when I did I did not see her interpretation as dire as BPs. If anyone has a reference I’d appreciate a link.