Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #112

[tresir2012]

Oh boy. I can say with certainty that chances are super super slim he did not know about the phone unless she tossed it at some point after they knew they were in serious trouble. They were found during a search of the area in which local volunteers were present. Please do not take that as confirmation as to anything concerning the nature of the crime as they are not releasing that information for very good reasons.

I also want to add that I only spoke up in order to direct the chain of very good thoughts in the right direction, rather than have many branches of thought.

When volunteers are involved, it gets a little muddy, as they have to talk to someone they trust, especially if it was their first time encountering a crime scene. I believe our crew did a very good job of being respectful of LEs wishes.

So the important question is what is the right direction now, in your opinion?

 

[steeltowngirl]

If they have DNA, then why no match? He is maybe not already in Codis, he may not be in the ancestry sites either. Or they are bluffing that they have DNA at all or it can only be traced to a maternal line. Are there other possibilities?

There has also been talk of a contaminated crime scene. So who knows?

 

[Bluepopsicle]

@momma_k , respectfully, maybe things are not that straightforward. Your first post implored the person who had a new POI to call the LE. The rest sounded like the LE had the case, they only needed it to be airtight.

These two parts are conflicting. Either LE need to tighten the case against the suspect, or they need to find one.

You know where the problem lies? Someone may read your later posts and think, oh, they have a suspect, all Delphi knows who he is, the LE are working on the case, he is local, so my own POI who lives in Kentucky is unrelated...and not call. And yet I feel from the tone of your post that the LE would appreciate new leads.

So your first few posts, and the rest, don’t match. I personally think that people should call with leads, but it needs to be emphasized.

Respectfully, I didn’t get that impression of momma_k’s post at all. It must be a fine fine line for her to post about this case, while at the same time trying to watch every little thing she says...on top of that, being new here and everything else that goes with that.

I am worried we may be overwhelming her and I don’t think anyone here wants her to get frustrated with all our questions!

Thank you for joining us momma_k, and all the wonderful insight you have provided! Please don’t get discouraged with us...you can always tell us to back off!!!

 

[tresir2012]

I think you are completely missing the intent of the content and information.

I think you maybe don't want to answer then. That's ok. Searches were conducted in Peru and Lebanon, they are on the case map, that is fact. Etter, someone who LE are looking into, killed himself in Lebanon, so I am interested in what LE mean by local, not necessarily what locals mean by local.

 

[tresir2012]

There has also been talk of a contaminated crime scene. So who knows?

All of the above leads to complications. Plus they were wearing borrowed sweatshirt tops.

 

[LovelyB]

My apologies to the mods. My post was deleted. I did not think clearly due to lack of sleep.
My POI I seen today. I can't even stomach waving to him. I wish I could go in great detail of what I shared on the tip line.
He was oddly taking pictures of his home an his second car. I asked my son if he knew Why? He said his buddy will be leaving after graduation in 2020 for college an the house is much to big for them since they can hardly afford living there the past 2 years. As the family an I were getting in the car We hear " Hey Guys! Put your bikes on the sidewalk to fix them not the grass!" (Speaking to his 11 year old an friend)
I froze. I couldn't take my eyes off him. I watched him walk back up his driveway in the garage. My family was like what was that about?!!
Me: What's the big deal the kids are fixing the bikes on the grass? It's flipping dead anyways! They never take care of their lawn!
He was wearing his favorite baseball hat turned backwards, an the infamous blue windbreaker pullover.
UGH!
Please let the day be soon this monster is caught.

Especially given that the voice recording is one of the only decent pieces of evidence we have to go on, I'm glad you sent in your tip. It only takes the right one to get this guy.

 

[Charlot123]

If they have DNA, then why no match? He is maybe not already in Codis, he may not be in the ancestry sites either. Or they are bluffing that they have DNA at all or it can only be traced to a maternal line. Are there other possibilities?

You know what I would do with good DNA and no match in Gedmatch or CODIS? And I am very far from a criminologist. I’d run it through Gedmatch ancestry analyzer, they have such a thing. It is 4-way, so 4 grandparents.

And then, if it comes back as predominantly Western European, but no match in CODIS or Gedmatch. get in touch with their corresponding organizations dealing with crime. Britain, Germany, Australia, etc. Even Eastern European would allow it. Find 3d cousins where most Americans came from.

These countries use our CODIS, I think they would allow to run against their national databases. No country would deny given what we are dealing with.

BTW, in this article, there is a good map indicating how laws differ from one state to another, regading arrestee DNA collections, and what states differ from IN. Even KY is already under a different law.

Combined DNA Index System - Wikipedia

 

[tresir2012]

February would be a ridiculous time to hunt. They are either newbies or not really hunting. It is well known by anyone who hunts that is way too early. Warm or not. The ground would still be too cold.

I think when they said morel hunting they were probably thinking of something else beginning with M. So you have confirmed it would not be possible to collect morels in February, which is what I suspected. MOO.

 

[sunshineray]

My opinion will always be the girls thought they were meeting up with someone else. I have no reason to state that other than knowing teen behavior as a mother of one.

It could also very well be a disturbed man with impulse control who stumbled upon an opportunity.

I take it then you think there's a good possibility that some kind of SM may have played a part in the girl's trip to the hiking trails?

 

[tresir2012]

You know what I would do with good DNA and no match in Gedmatch or CODIS? And I am very far from a criminologist. I’d run it through Gedmatch ancestry analyzer, they have such a thing. It is 4-way, so 4 grandparents.

And then, if it comes back as predominantly Western European, but no match in CODIS or Gedmatch. get in touch with their corresponding organizations dealing with crime. Britain, Germany, Australia, etc. Even Eastern European would allow it. Find 3d cousins where most Americans came from.

These countries use our CODIS, I think they would allow to run against their national databases. No country would deny given what we are dealing with.

BTW, in this article, there is a good map indicating how laws differ from one state to another, regading arrestee DNA collections, and what states differ from IN. Even KY is already under a different law.

Combined DNA Index System - Wikipedia

Interesting approach. Grandparents would likely be in USA if he is young end of the age range.

 

[momma_k]

I can only speculate but it's def a possibility. Even good girls go boy crazy.

I'm only saying if you wanted to meet up with a boy without your parents knowledge, even for innocent reasons, a teen would think of that place. A local parent could not just drive by and rat you out like other local parks, gathering spots.

There are some other very good theories that are also innocent reasons for them to be there. I just can't stop thinking that's a perfect spot for a predator to meet up with someone who believes they are a handsome young man. He could even have portrayed himself as a homeschool kid, or from a neighboring school, or even someone they kinda know. Fake profiles are a real problem.

This idea has been followed, but with the tight lipped nature of the investigation, at this point there is no way to say it's been ruled out. Hell, not much has been.

Again, all I am saying is if I was a teen and wanted to meet up with someone without getting ratted out that would certainly be a spot I would consider. My daughter complains because you can't get away with anything here lol. Which is ideal as a parent

 

[CSIDreamer]

I am not from Indiana so I cannot answer to its LE structure specifically. I can provide some general info about state LE structure based on the state where I live which is Georgia. There are 2 kinds of local law enforcement: one is responsible for matters occurring within the city limits of a city and the other is responsible for matters occurring outside of city limits and are usually referred to as sheriff departments. They can assist one another and are combined in some larger urban areas. Rural locations have as many officers as the budget allows. More wealthier areas of the state will have more personnel. Rural areas do not have resources such as crime scene analysis, labs, etc to help solve major crimes. This is where the state LE come into play. Our state LE, the Georgia Bureau of Investigations or GBI, is available to help these places that need and request their help. GBI has the trained personnel, labs, and equipment to investigate serious crimes. Most counties in GA call in the GBI to assist in the investigation of serious crimes. Urban areas like Atlanta could have some of its own specialists because their budget is bigger. The prosecution of the crime occurs in the court that has original jurisdiction for the physical scene of the crime. Original jurisdiction is usually the county superior court. I hope you find this info helpful. Fellow sleuthers, please advise if my post is misleading.

I'm in Indiana. City police have jurisdiction inside city limits but can call in any additional help they need. The sheriff's department has jurisdiction anywhere in the county, including all cities/towns. Indiana State Police have jurisdiction anywhere in the state. The FBI can be called in. The DNR can get involved. There's a lot.

 

[momma_k]

I think you maybe don't want to answer then. That's ok. Searches were conducted in Peru and Lebanon, they are on the case map, that is fact. Etter, someone who LE are looking into, killed himself in Lebanon, so I am interested in what LE mean by local, not necessarily what locals mean by local.

Again, I am just offering my perspective as are you. I am just looking to brainstorm and add perspective from my experience. Perspective is just that. And until the file is released, if ever, no one will truly know. This case has had a direct affect on the place I call home. I just want to help. If you want to have a constructive conversation with me, I'm willing. <modsnip - bickering>

 

[momma_k]

I'm in Indiana. City police have jurisdiction inside city limits but can call in any additional help they need. The sheriff's department has jurisdiction anywhere in the county, including all cities/towns. Indiana State Police have jurisdiction anywhere in the state. The FBI can be called in. The DNR can get involved. There's a lot.

Welcome fellow Hoosier. I think you did a much better job at clarifying than I did. Lol. Thank you

 

[momma_k]

Again, I am just offering my perspective as are you. I am just looking to brainstorm and add perspective from my experience. Perspective is just that. And until the file is released, if ever, no one will truly know. This case has had a direct affect on the place I call home. I just want to help. If you want to have a constructive conversation with me, I'm willing. <modsnip - bickering>

Do you feel it was a random attack, or targeted and planned? Again, opinion is fine.

My opinion is that there was a plan in place that went too far. As in they intended harm, but not killing.

I'm hesitant to even put my thoughts on here anymore, but from what has been released, the nature of the crime, etc. It seems it may have gotten out of hand.

Even if it was a crime of opportunity, I do not believe the perp was prepared to take a life until things went too far.

I am by no means an expert, that is just my opinion from everything I know to be true in this case.

 

[sunshineray]

I read @momma_k ’s posts and thought, my theory of the Monon bridge being the place of spy rendezvous, goes up in ashes, lol. Because the Delphians think it is the local person. However, with Google maps, one can find the bridge, and get there, if someone needs it for whatever reason.

I still can’t imagine that if the LE have enough DNA, they can’t find the person. There are lots of things one can do with DNA alone to narrow down the perp. And if Gedmatch doesn’t have the person’s relatives, there are similar sites in other countries, all the LE need is ask for collaboration. No one wants a killer to stay free. And if the guy was that stupid as @momma_k implies, to leave ample DNA, something doesn’t fit.

Charlot don't you think it kinda does fit? The sherriff commented in December 2018, albeit to Radar Online, that DNA was sent away to the FBI to do "DNA testing research" and four months later the April PC and the language stating an investigative strategy change happens, the two year old sketch is tanked for an early done sketch never released. The police state the killer is local and in plain site. All those actions have to have a cause. It seems the simplest and most logical cause came about from the DNA testing undertaken in those previous months to the April PC.

 

[Rossymom]

That's interesting TY. I didn't realise they were so sought after. I have a couple of POI's who like morel hunting and were possibly at the trail that day so I wanted to find out a bit.

They sure are. I think I am the only one in Indiana who loves looking for them but absolutely hates eating them.

 

[ScumbagTrav]

@Owl4 what makes this suspect more compelling to you than others you have posted about here before, like the guy at your daughter's work that you followed out the door, or the guy you were saying "BG" to yourself when a coworker overheard you?

What specifically makes you think its him?

 

[tresir2012]

@Owl4 what makes this suspect more compelling to you than others you have posted about here before, like the guy at your daughter's work that you followed out the door, or the guy you were saying "BG" to yourself when a coworker overheard you?

What specifically makes you think its him?

I think you should probably drop the topic now as being OBE IMO.

 

[sunshineray]

Presumably that would also be LE's analysis when saying he is from Delphi or works there or visits. So they also would take a 30 mile radius from the crime scene and class the perp as local to Delphi if he comes from within that circle. MOO

It makes you wonder. Do you think ISP Carter saying "could be in this room" narrows the meaning of the word "local" in this case? Where I live I wouldn't consider anyone outside my town of 55,000+ local but then my county's population is huge as we have the biggest city in our state within it.