Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #114

[tresir2012]

My understanding is you cannot get a search warrant for random data from a cell tower. My understanding is this is not legal. Instead, if you have a specific cell number you want to trace, the cell phone company has 30 days to provide you data on all the cell towers it pinged on the date(s) searched.

Sometimes I wish it were different, but my understanding is this protects privacy of others.

These articles may clarify the situation. It does look like LE use them in certain situations. A double murder investigation would warrant that IMO.

Indiana State Police tracking cellphones — but won't say how or why

US cops point at cell towers and say: Give us every phone number that's touched that mast

 

[Maplesyrup]

I always listen to the “crazy lady” people very carefully. Very. Few people do, and quickly dismiss them as crackpots. What I have learned is they often have something important to contribute, to tell; they just have a very hard time verbalizing it because of chaotic or disordered thinking. But I always listen very carefully to see if I can mine that nugget of gold from the tangle of thoughts. And there almost always is a nugget of gold in there.

Amateur opinion and speculation

Totally agree with you about a crazy lady having potentially accurate information. Reminds me of a story my dad told us some years back. Years ago in November, 1963, my dad and his coworker were working outdoors in a small Ohio town when suddenly a disheveled neighbor lady came scurrying out of her house. She was wild eyed and clearly mentally "off." Of course the guys had no idea what to think of her as she came over to them in a very conspiratorial manner and said "our president got shot!" cackled, and ran back inside her house. My dad and his coworker looked at each other with complete confusion. The other guy with my dad commented that she was not right in the head [I don't know his exact words but that was what he meant]. My dad paused and said something to the effect that he wasn't so sure...he said he remembered something from the news the night before that the president was supposed to be in Texas. Right then, another guy that had seen her came walking over to my dad and his coworker. He asked what [his neighbor]the woman had just told them. This man then said said she was right...the president had just been shot and killed in Dallas, Texas. So...yes, crazy people can indeed have accurate information.

 

[ScumbagTrav]

His voice sounds confident. He is walking on a old bridge, possibly trying to keep his lower face obscured , while keeping the girls in his line of sight. I also think he is trying to keep whatever is in is jacket from falling out while he gets his weapon.

I agree about the voice. It sounds so confident and in control. Not wavering at all. Its a short sample, but he seems very composed.

 

[Maplesyrup]

Thanks for giving us another opportunity to watch that. Seriously.

I know we have gone back and forth on what this reveals to us and, most importantly, what it reveals about his gait...since that is what LE asked us to look at.

Now, most of us concluded, after earlier viewing of it, that it demonstrated that BG was walking the bridge with confidence. I know I did. But, does it?

As I view it tonight, it seems to me that he does not appear to be confident/comfortable at all.

Goes back to confirmation bias, I guess. But, I'd like to know what others think when viewing it with that bias.

For one thing, listen carefully to his pronunciation of the word "guys." Listen for the long "sssss" in the word "guys." I heard the long "sssss" sound in the speech of someone very closely integrated into the Delphi community. I cannot post his name here as he is not a suspect and it is against Websleuths rules. To me, the voice sounds the same. Youtube videos exist of him speaking which is how I caught the way he pronounces that long "s" sound in his normal speech. Enough said. I think that is why they added the words "guys." It is unique to his speech. Again, like many of us wonder, they make think they know the BG but don't have the necessary proof to make the case stick.

 

[tresir2012]

Replying to my own post to add that this line of thinking actually coincidences with the last GH live chat the other night. Some very interesting comments were made by Gray’s last caller. Around 2:00
Gray Hughes Investigates
Go to the one titled “Delphi Call In, share your thoughts

Thanks for directing us to the time stamp in that long video FP.

Is it the caller he refers to as Danny who is connected to an elected official?

He was saying BG was still in the area as late as 3.45. So they have to know this how exactly? A witness, cell phone records? I often wonder if BG did actually take Libby's phone and toss it around the BBR area, hence the early search there. That could be how they know if he was still around in the area till that time. When asked about where the phone was found, I remember Holeman previously answering "in the general area". Is there anything else of importance that I may have missed in this GH call in?

 

[FinePrint]

Thanks for directing us to the time stamp in that long video FP.

Is it the caller he refers to as Danny who is connected to an elected official?

He was saying BG was still in the area as late as 3.45. So they have to know this how exactly? A witness, cell phone records? I often wonder if BG did actually take Libby's phone and toss it around the BBR area, hence the early search there. That could be how they know if he was still around in the area till that time. When asked about where the phone was found, I remember Holeman previously answering "in the general area". Is there anything else of importance that I may have missed in this GH call in?

Yes, Danny

The other thing I found interesting was that he said the only DNA found was touch DNA on the shoulder of a sweatshirt. And still they were not all that sure it is the killers DNA. So from that I gather it was Abby's sweatshirt as she was the only one I believe was wearing one and if there was only touch DNA on the shoulder....no SA..

As far as your line of thinking I am somewhat agreeing with you. How would LE know the time BG left the area. The only real way to know is either a really good witness or Libby's phone. Did BG try to disable the phone in some way and that phone when recovered showed a time stamp for this action? Was the phone recording throughout the assault?

I'm not following you on the BBR angle. BBR is on the other side of town. LE said the phone was found near the girls.

 

[Charlot123]

My understanding is you cannot get a search warrant for random data from a cell tower. My understanding is this is not legal. Instead, if you have a specific cell number you want to trace, the cell phone company has 30 days to provide you data on all the cell towers it pinged on the date(s) searched.

Sometimes I wish it were different, but my understanding is this protects privacy of others.

I wonder if they could, instead, ask cell tower the same question. Either a number that pinged next to Libby, or a number that stayed stationary during a certain period of time in the area of the Trails. If you ask “what number”, given the context of violent murder, maybe they will say.

Or, if they have a short list of suspects, check their cellphones’ behavior on that day. And see if it minimally fits the alibi.

I think that the ultimate choice was random, but he had access to girls’ IGs. That implies some phone.

I also think that people easily may have two different cellphones, and two accounts with different carriers. (Some just open them because there is an excellent deal on cellphones if you open an account).

 

[Hann]

Yes, Danny

The other thing I found interesting was that he said the only DNA found was touch DNA on the shoulder of a sweatshirt. And still they were not all that sure it is the killers DNA. So from that I gather it was Abby's sweatshirt as she was the only one I believe was wearing one and if there was only touch DNA on the shoulder....no SA..

As far as your line of thinking I am somewhat agreeing with you. How would LE know the time BG left the area. The only real way to know is either a really good witness or Libby's phone. Did BG try to disable the phone in some way and that phone when recovered showed a time stamp for this action? Was the phone recording throughout the assault?

I'm not following you on the BBR angle. BBR is on the other side of town. LE said the phone was found near the girls.

Maybe the killer was wearing gloves, so there wouldn't be DNA on the victims.

 

[FinePrint]

Maybe the killer was wearing gloves, so there wouldn't be DNA on the victims.

I had that thought at one time too and I guess it is still a possibility that he put on gloves at the last minute but in the video of BG you can clearly see he is not wearing gloves.

 

[Hann]

I had that thought at one time too and I guess it is still a possibility that he put on gloves at the last minute but in the video of BG you can clearly see he is not wearing gloves.

True, in these couple of seconds video he is not wearing gloves but how he killed two victims and not leave his DNA I wonder.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

My understanding is you cannot get a search warrant for random data from a cell tower. My understanding is this is not legal. Instead, if you have a specific cell number you want to trace, the cell phone company has 30 days to provide you data on all the cell towers it pinged on the date(s) searched.

Sometimes I wish it were different, but my understanding is this protects privacy of others.

If I remember correctly, after the Boston Marathon bombings, the FBI pulled an enormous amount of data from local cell towers...call logs, Twitter info, etc. and sifted through it. They did not have any particular phone or phone number in mind. First they felt the bombs may have been triggered remotely by cell phone and secondly they hoped something would jump out to them as suspicious. I guess, under certain circumstances at least, LE can pull all the data from a cell tower. I would hope they did in Delphi.

 

[FinePrint]

True, in these couple of seconds video he is not wearing gloves but how he killed two victims and not leave his DNA I wonder.

Right! I just don't know...knife, gun, garrote?

 

[Hann]

Right! I just don't know...knife, gun, garrote?

Right, but did anybody report hearing gun shots? Concerning knife and garrot, I would think there would be some DNA.
This case is so baffling, nothing makes sense.

 

[FinePrint]

Right, but did anybody report hearing gun shots? Concerning knife and garrot, I would think there would be some DNA.
This case is so baffling, nothing makes sense.

No, I've not ever heard that anyone heard gun shots. Pure speculation on my part. I'll just put out there that hearing gun shots in that area would not be unusual at all. People around here on rural properties shoot guns all the time and its pretty common.

If I was to be asked if I heard gun shots yesterday I wouldn't be able to answer that as I'm just so used to it I don't pay attention to it.

Now that I've said all of that... I don't think that was the cause of death. I do however think he used a gun in order to make the girls comply with his demands.

I do not live in Delphi...but close by in a similar rural setting.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

No, I've not ever heard that anyone heard gun shots. Pure speculation on my part. I'll just put out there that hearing gun shots in that area would not be unusual at all. People around here on rural properties shoot guns all the time and its pretty common.

If I was to be asked if I heard gun shots yesterday I wouldn't be able to answer that as I'm just so used to it I don't pay attention to it.

Now that I've said all of that... I don't think that was the cause of death. I do however think he used a gun in order to make the girls comply with his demands.

I do not live in Delphi...but close by in a similar rural setting.

I agree here. Gunshots wouldn’t perhaps be noticed but, like you, I don’t think a gun was fired or used to kill the girls.
One thing I’ve wondered about is nobody heard screams either. That is a fairly confined area with steep banks, you would think sound would not be lost in there. How did he keep them quiet? Especially once they got down the hill and realized without a doubt they were in grave danger. We have no information from the crime scene so who knows, but I wonder if he duct taped their mouths.

 

[ScumbagTrav]

Right, but did anybody report hearing gun shots? Concerning knife and garrot, I would think there would be some DNA.
This case is so baffling, nothing makes sense.

Forgive me for bringing up another case...but BG could have had a gun and not used it. Meaning, not fired it. Could have used it to intimidate qnd control only.

Zodiac Killer did this when he attacked a couple in broad daylight at a lake. Used the gun to control, but a knife to harm.

 

[Fizzle]

I

I agree here. Gunshots wouldn’t perhaps be noticed but, like you, I don’t think a gun was fired or used to kill the girls.
One thing I’ve wondered about is nobody heard screams either. That is a fairly confined area with steep banks, you would think sound would not be lost in there. How did he keep them quiet? Especially once they got down the hill and realized without a doubt they were in grave danger. We have no information from the crime scene so who knows, but I wonder if he duct taped their mouths.

I'd say that's probable, or some type of gag. Probably whatever was easiest for him to carry.

 

[155etta]

I always listen to the “crazy lady” people very carefully. Very. Few people do, and quickly dismiss them as crackpots. What I have learned is they often have something important to contribute, to tell; they just have a very hard time verbalizing it because of chaotic or disordered thinking. But I always listen very carefully to see if I can mine that nugget of gold from the tangle of thoughts. And there almost always is a nugget of gold in there.

Amateur opinion and speculation

Good point. I shouldn't be so dismissive.

 

[bradfordsleuth]

I agree here. Gunshots wouldn’t perhaps be noticed but, like you, I don’t think a gun was fired or used to kill the girls.
One thing I’ve wondered about is nobody heard screams either. That is a fairly confined area with steep banks, you would think sound would not be lost in there. How did he keep them quiet? Especially once they got down the hill and realized without a doubt they were in grave danger. We have no information from the crime scene so who knows, but I wonder if he duct taped their mouths.

JMO
I think he used a gun to control them, but not to end their lives.

Curious how nobody heard screams, but we have heard about a couple who was possibly arguing under the bridge, which evidently could be heard by someone. (I have no link for this, but it has been mentioned in the last 120,000 posts multiple times.)

I would guess duct tape was used to keep them quiet (I am also guessing he wore gloves as he would have left a trace evidence on a gag or possible fingerprints on duct tape.)

 

[ScumbagTrav]

JMO
I think he used a gun to control them, but not to end their lives.

Curious how nobody heard screams, but we have heard about a couple who was possibly arguing under the bridge, which evidently could be heard by someone. (I have no link for this, but it has been mentioned in the last 120,000 posts multiple times.)

I would guess duct tape was used to keep them quiet (I am also guessing he wore gloves as he would have left a trace evidence on a gag or possible fingerprints on duct tape.)

Duct tape or something makes sense. But dont disregard compliance. The girls could have remained quiet, simply complying, hoping/clinging to the idea they would be Ok if they did so.