Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #119

Discussion in 'Located Persons Discussion' started by Tricia, Apr 22, 2019.

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  1. x_files

    x_files Well-Known Member

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    agreed.
     


  2. rypj84

    rypj84 Member

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    I wonder if "the twist" which was stated by LE could possibly be BG's involvement in other unsolved cases? Also, if the evidence is shakey or mostly circumstantial then maybe the DA wants a more solid connection to a POI before an arrest is made? Like a vehicle placing an individual(s) in the area at the time.
     
  3. Boxer

    Boxer Well-Known Member

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    I would really like to think they are that close.
     
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  4. tresir2012

    tresir2012 Former Member

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    And they still have not ruled out the possibility of two (or more) peeps AFAIK unless you can point me to where they have definitively done that. If you cannot then speculating is ok and should not be ridiculed IMO.
     
  5. tresir2012

    tresir2012 Former Member

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    Well they would trace the biological line back then presumably find that out when they then came forward down the branches and got no exact match. Then the detective work would have to begin I guess. That's a problem isn't it? I have a friend who was adopted by her grandmother and grew up believing she was her mum, but really it was her oldest sister who was her real mother. She found out when she was 16 I believe.
     
  6. bradfordsleuth

    bradfordsleuth Well-Known Member

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    JMO, but I think that the words were from two different parts of the conversation and not just a pause in between. I also keep second guessing if they were direct instructions to the girls, or part of a conversation that related to him being there under the guise of looking for something at the bridge. An outdoor adventure related activity is as specific as I can get here.

    In reading your theory bbm above, I just need a reminder as to whether there was crime scene tape on the north side of the bridge as well as the south side. From what I recall from early pics and videos, only the south side had the CS tape, which would indicate that the initiation of the crime was unrelated to the north side of the bridge.

    Of course, my memory fades after almost three years and I continue to second-guess many things I swore I clearly remember reading very early on that I can no longer find. When you do end up stumbling upon these things and find them again...it is a relief.;)
     
  7. tresir2012

    tresir2012 Former Member

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    An additional perp from Delphi has been charged today in the Nicole Bowen case. See my signature for link to Nicole's thread.
     
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  8. tresir2012

    tresir2012 Former Member

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    I don't remember any except for some near the trailhead parking area.
     
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  9. Charlot123

    Charlot123 Well-Known Member

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    One of my uncle’s matches (who is now of no interest, but at that time was the highest) told me that he did not understand much but hired a genealogist to sort things out. Half a year later, he got a tree, with the name of the father who raised him plus a tree, and the name of the biofather plus his tree. It is doable.

    We are living at the time when most adoption records are not sealed, and it is possible to find out the truth. Non-paternal event is a more complicated aspect, but possible to find out.

    There are more difficult situations that happen, such as embryo adoption. Go guess what genealogy job is performed there, as the child physically born of that mother, with witnesses and records, is not her biological child. Think of all egg and sperm donors plus surrogate mothers... I only hope that with embryo donation, there is some paper trail. As to sperm donors, they are usually anonymous, but at least other kids born of them often do seek their parents, and would be in Gedmatch.

    From my own genealogy work, for my family, I do cross paths with adopted kids. I don’t know how valid my impression is, but dads are usually less careful, and leave trails. Some situations are comic, some, tragic, but they are found.

    With moms, it might be more difficult. The shame, and the ostracism on behalf of their own biological families, and also on behalf of their then-husbands, if they exist, is shocking. Some of these moms simply disappear (commit suicide, maybe?), or start drinking. I have heard of several very tragic stories. And it is surprising how bad the “true” biological families are to such kids, the products of their mom’s affairs. I though it had to do with inheritance, but no, often it is merely about the hatred of a young woman who once fell in love and bore that child, the product of love, and then gave him up for adoption. It is all about the societal expectations from a woman and a man, the societal norms, and I wonder, has anyone else noticed this disparity of views and attitudes, towards men and women, mothers and fathers, in cases of adoptees?
     
  10. Charlot123

    Charlot123 Well-Known Member

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    The perp being a SK is luck, not twist. MOO.

    I wonder if the twist is, “who the witnesses saw - and described - that angry guy, he was merely walking around, while his (friend, brother, father) was killing the girls under the bridge”.

    Or worse, “the witness was meeting her date, who was late. He was late because he was cleaning himself after killing the girls, but she did not know it and unknowingly, provided him with the alibi”.


    MOO.


    In fact, the biggest alibi was provided by the police who suspended the search for the night. The killer(s) had ample time to clean after himself (themselves).
     
  11. Charlot123

    Charlot123 Well-Known Member

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    I think that there might have been only one killer, but LE seems to be positive that someone knows, and covers up, or keeps silent. In this respect, there are at least two involved. And maybe more.
     
  12. Charlot123

    Charlot123 Well-Known Member

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    I think the murderer is either from Delphi, or lives nearby.

    Two versions - either he knew the girls, or he is simply a version of BR from another thread - deeply flawed, but totally protected by his family and bored out of his mind - are 50/50. MOO.

    I don’t see any hair, I see a hat, but I can believe that it is a young athlete, who used to be idolized in this small community, and starts failing in a big world. Why not? And the murders happen at the moment when he realizes that there are smarter, handsomer, more talented people around. And this is when he is snubbed by the girls.

    Another version, someone who is quiet, good-looking and bossed by the wife, maybe grew up in a military family, maybe half-immigrant. (Hence the DNA without matches). He is so quiet that his family can not imagine him being the perp.

    Not sure the LE knows. This is my concern.
     
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  13. Boxer

    Boxer Well-Known Member

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    I went to the thread - last things posted April 2019, not getting anything from a search from the topic. I am I misunderstanding something?
     
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  14. kc1023

    kc1023 Well-Known Member

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  15. almagata

    almagata Well-Known Member

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    I've been pondering the drug retaliation theory the past few days. I really am not one to believe in complicated conspiracy crime scenarios and I still don't think this crime was some pre-planned attack where the girls were targeted days in advance.

    I was wondering what the drug gangs were like in the area since Carroll County is a white bread Midwest place. When I started looking at the gangs that were likely active in the area, what I found were drug users which tended to have ties to white supremacists organizations based on tattoos and other symbolism. Some of these guys have been to jail and that maybe where they have made their white supremacist gang affiliations.

    In California, we have white gangs like the Hell's Angels, Peckerwoods, and the Aryan Brotherhood. I don't know what white supremacist gangs operate in Indiana but based on what I have seen recently, there is plenty of this kind of activity in the Delphi area.

    Is it possible that one of these affiliated members saw Libby that day and attacked her due to the past actions of her family member, yes. Do I think that is likely, no. But, it is these kinds of organized criminal gang members that MIGHT recognize her and retaliate.

    The worry over a retaliation attack could also explain what the family acted so quickly to call in help for a search. I know my family would not have called the community and the police to do a search if I was a few hours late to meet them. They would have walked the trails for hours. Called friends. Searched town but they would not have involved others until probably the next day.

    I can see now why people might think that the Delphi murders and the Flora fire could be related if a member(s) of a white supremacist affiliated group was involved.

    What I don't see in the picture of BG is any clothing, tattoos or other visual cues that he is associated with a group like this. I just see an average white guy.
     
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  16. FrostedGlass

    FrostedGlass Well-Known Member

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  17. Charlot123

    Charlot123 Well-Known Member

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    Sorry for some reason I can not copy the post from the previous thread nr 118.

    Hence, I had to copy and quote @Awsi Dooger’s post from someone’s answer. Sorry...



    I needed one thing from that post, the article.

    I find the name of the post grossly misleading. Here is why.


    Look at the map of Europe. Eastern Europe is much larger than Western one.

    And of Eastern Europe, Russia, Ukraine and Belarus are the largest territory.

    Yet of these three countries, 23@me and Ancestry, do not accept DNA tests.

    There is a list of the countries they don’t accept packages from.

    On the other side, of course, it costs a lot for the citizens of these three countries to do DNA tests.

    And god forbid BG is of Bosnian emigrant stock! I bet they won’t find any meaningful matches because war-ravaged Bosnia is poor.

    Even worse if his parents are Kosovar. Good luck searching Gedmatch.

    So it will all work if BG is an average Western European.

    Imagine he is half-Indian. I recently saw the genome of a person who is half-Indian and half-European. All counties of British part were listed, as to India, it was “Indian, Pakistan, Afghanistan”. A joke...

    And god forbid he is from Northern China, because his genome is read as “Asian”. In the meantime, in our school district, 72% of kids are from China, Korea and India. And they, too, are curious about their backgrounds.

    So I wish the BG is of typical West European background. In any other situation, the DNA might be silent.


    ETA: here

    https://eu.customercare.23andme.com/hc/en-us/articles/204712980-What-countries-do-you-ship-to

    I was wrong about Belarus. But what if the guy is of Serbian extraction? Russian? Ukrainian? Kosovar?

    ETA: does anyone see Mexico here?
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2019
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  18. JudgeJudi

    JudgeJudi Well-Known Member

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    This is one of Kelsi's better videos. We’re starved for facts but I found an interesting little nugget.

    “The night before, they were actually painting in their room. After having a girls’ night, we all kind of hung out downstairs. We were watching movies with some of my friends and it was a really good night.”

    Libby had asked Kelsi a few times during the week if she would take them to the bridge on snow make-up day and Kelsi told her no, to do other things. It’s entirely possible that one of Kelsi’s friends said WTTE “Hey Libby, what are you going to do on your day off tomorrow?” and Libby could have replied that she wanted to go to the bridge. If such an exchange took place, I don't think it would be overreaching to suggest that’s how another person ultimately found out that they may go to the bridge and decided to take a chance of them being there.

    @ 6:33
     
  19. Boxer

    Boxer Well-Known Member

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    Sketch is pretty clearly what ever the DNA of locals are. see below.
    His accent also seems very local. Carrol county is about as white as it gets, 96 percent Western European.

    Carrol County Indiana
    As of the 2010 United States Census, there were 20,155 people, 7,900 households, and 5,678 families residing in the county.[19] The population density was 54.1 inhabitants per square mile (20.9/km2). There were 9,472 housing units at an average density of 25.4 per square mile (9.8/km2).[6] The racial makeup of the county was 96.8% white, 0.2% American Indian, 0.2% black or African American, 0.1% Asian, 1.7% from other races, and 1.0% from two or more races.
     
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  20. Charlot123

    Charlot123 Well-Known Member

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    I was thinking about white supremacists, but it makes no sense.

    Libby and Abby were white, moreover, Libby’s last name was German! Can you imagine any Neo-Nazi, or especially Aryan Brotherhood killing a blonde girl with the last name of German? They are very much sold on these issues. And like their protagonists, they probably feel that women should stay at home and bear kids, but they won’t kill two potential future white mothers.

    It is another thing if Libby found out that one of these groups was involved in Flora fire, but it is too far-reached.
     
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