Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #119

[Tricia]

Welcome back to the Delphi Murders discussion thread.

On the afternoon of Feb. 13th, 2017, best friends Abigail Williams and Liberty German were dropped off at a bridge in the town of Delphi. On Feb 14th their bodies were discovered around noon about 50 feet from the north bank of Deer Creek which is about 0.5 miles from the bridge.
The Sheriff's office gave a press conference on 4/22/19 and we have some solid information. Please take a look below

HERE IS THE NEW SKETCH FROM THE PRESS CONFERENCE ON 4/22/19

HERE IS THE NEW AUDIO. IT'S-A BIT LONGER THAN THE FIRST AUDIO:
https://www.in.gov/isp/files/Delphi_Audio_Edited_2019x3.wav

Here is the old audio in a loop:
http://www.in.gov/isp/files/Delphi_male_voice_loop.mp3

LATEST PRESS CONFERENCE 4/22/19

FOR MORE CLICK HERE FOR THE CARROL COUNTY SHERIFF'S OFFICE FACEBOOK PAGE.

Anyone with information about this case, no matter how insignificant, is encouraged to call the Delphi Homicide Investigation Tip Line at (844) 459-5786.

Information can also be reported by calling the Indiana State Police at(800) 382-7537, or the Carroll County Sheriff's Department at (765) 564-2413.

Information can also be emailed to Abbyandlibbytip@cacoshrf.com

video of press conference from 2017 02/22/17: https://www.facebook.com/NewsCenter1...4728963476130/

Let's do this. Let's commit to getting this killer's picture and voice out there any possible way we can.

Pictures of Abby and Libby

Link to post with all Threads #1-98(Courtesy of margarita25)

Thread #99 Thread #100 Thread #101 Thread #102 Thread #103 Thread #104 Thread #105 Thread #106 Thread #107 Thread #108 Thread #109 Thread #110 Thread #111 Thread #112 Thread #113 Thread #114 Thread #115 Thread #116 Thread #117 Thread #118

Link to Media Maps & Timelines *No Discussion*
Link to Media Maps & Timelines #2 *No Discussion*

IMAGE Discussion Thread

Scanner Thread

Rules Etiquette & Information
Case map by skibaboo updated with grayhuze crime flow video
grayhuze youtube channel

Verified Insiders: None in this case at this time. Verified Professional, Member michael.gartley, is a Verified Expert in Imaging Science.

RULES OF THIS DISCUSSION

DO NOT post photos of random individuals (including persons featured in MSM articles about other area crimes) to compare to the images of unidentified suspect on the bridge.​

PLEASE DO NOT POST PICTURES OF SEX OFFENDERS!

Do not sleuth family, PERIOD. This includes previous public records which have nothing to do with this case. They are victims here. Plain and simple.

4) If you feel you have a tip, by all means, phone it in. Do NOT discuss your tip here. Contact the authorities and give them time to follow your lead.

 

[Tricia]

There is a lot to discuss in the Delphi case with all the very big developments.

We have a very strong rule on Websleuths. Do not ask someone to PM you on a discussion thread. Why? You saw what happens on this thread. The thread was almost taken over by people saying "PM ME PM ME". We couldn't keep up with removing the posts.
If you want someone to PM you then what you do is you PRIVATE MESSAGE THEM FIRST and ask them whatever.

You do not stop the whole discussion and ask someone to PM you.

We will be giving long time-outs to anyone who says they have the information they can only share in PM's or words to that effect.

We call that "baiting" and it makes me crazy. It is so frustrating to try and get things under control when someone recklessly posts a cryptic post creating a frenzy of posts asking to be PM'd.
Please be mindful of our rules.
Thank you,
Tricia

 

[Charlot123]

I wonder if the DNA may be hard to trace due to an adoption or unknown actual father. As in, BG grew up thinking his 'father' was his real father but the reality is that another man impregnated his mother. Just a random thought.

I wonder if the DNA may be hard to trace due to an adoption or unknown actual father. As in, BG grew up thinking his 'father' was his real father but the reality is that another man impregnated his mother. Just a random thought.

But DNA does not lie. Actually an unknown actual father might be the easier case - his kids with another woman might have no idea about their older sibling and hence have no reason to hide their genomes.

And as to adoption, we have so many “search angels” trained to find bio relatives. I have hope in these situations.

it is more difficult if the real dad is the perp’s neighbor. Then you might very well be suspecting a wrong family.

 

[BNA]

I was thinking of it too. How organized should one be to prepare it all - hang antlers in advance, only to replace them with something special later?

Campers hang food from trees as a precaution against bears. It is a chore to hang the ropes sometimes. Perhaps, in a spot frequently used by campers, they might leave the ropes in the trees.

 

[Charlot123]

^^^^THIS

If LE have DNA, it could still be very difficult to find this perp. I tend to shy away from speculation about DNA in this case, but the point has to be made here that if, indeed, they have a DNA profile of some sort, the chances of it leading to BG could be slim for any number of reasons.

Like others here have noted upthread, finding genealogical links going back "to the old country" could be difficult. It often times depends upon the country and their records, say going back to the mid-1800's and earlier, and in my own research it can be difficult coming up with names, especially in certain cultures. In my own background, a wife's maiden name might be only in church records, and won't even be in a family Bible or something similar.

Quite frankly a lot of people didn't much care about that stuff "back in the day", and ended up in the U.S., Mexico, Canada, Australia, and any number of other countries without caring much about the past.

GSK was linked through ancestors who were living roughly in the mid-1800's, a third cousin if memory serves. Imagine if the clock were moved back to 1800 or earlier through a much more distant cousin, and how difficult that would be and how much more time it would take. Like others have noted, adoption and other factors could complicate such a task. Census and other records may not be a 100% trustworthy means of tracing some ancestry information.

My paternal grandfather and his three siblings were split up after the flu pandemic around 100 years ago. Two were adopted and no doubt the records were sealed in NY, although he kept in touch with those two siblings. Now imagine I submit my DNA to 23andme or another site, and LE link it to a murder investigation through some distant cousin of mine.

Their grandmother or gr. grandmother or great aunt or whatever is a great aunt of mine but was adopted in 1920, and the records are sealed. Throw in a last name change, a marriage, and other factors, and one can see where this could get complicated.

Software can only do so much, the records I've used are not technically searchable online, say through databases. Some of what I found is online, but the scrolling took many hours and the records were from old newspaper clippings about births, marriages, and obits. This is where the forensic genealogy experts come in to play in these cases, technology alone can not solve these cases. Imagine a group of researchers and detectives requesting information from, say, county courthouses across the U.S., walking through cemeteries, etc.

JMO

If you looked at the 23@me map, they can predict what county your relatives came from. I hope they do better job with Britain/Germany than with my Russian/Ukrainian relatives, lol, but I suspect, they have a very good database on Western Europe.

I think that if the person is of your regular Anglo-German/Dutch/Irish stock, it is very possible to find relatives. Or at least it was easy through Gedmatch in 2017. Now, if DC sat on the DNAs they had till Gedmatch closed its base for LÊ, the situation might be very different now.

Churches in Europe? Great, my dad’s distant Finnish matches can check the church records dating back 500 years ago.

(Try, however, finding relatives in the country where churches were burned and archives mishandled, where relatives would abandon the children of an arrested brother, where people were sent to Siberia in 72 hours, where two wars and a revolution decimated the population. And even in such a situation there are amazing searchers who trace their lines up to 1600es.)

No, if the guy is of the regular US stock, given the baby boom and relative stability of the life here, close relatives should be found. It is much worse if the person is the first generation immigrant from the part of the world that is not much into genealogy.

 

[Charlot123]

The only organization I can think of with a white scarf as part of a uniform is the US Navy. Worn with bridge coats or peacoats. But I usually keep some items in my car like lined leather gloves, hoodie, watch cap AND a white scarf.

What about the cook? The chef?
They have white neckerchiefs. Either the guy is into cooking (restaurant or even Indiana Packers), or his close relative is.

 

[cryssyx3]

I've been trying to rationalize the current 8 month radio silence as a positive. It certainly is preferable to Doug Carter issuing confusing and contradictory statements every few months. There is frequent DNA discussion on Reddit, apparently moreso than here. Yesterday in a thread there a poster very well versed in genealogical DNA was talking about 5th cousins and how long it would take to piece together toward the suspect, if that's all you had. The high profile cases that have been solved by this method have been very fortunate, with close enough proximity like 3rd cousins or nearer.

I thought I remembered reading something that broke down each category by how much backfitting it required. I found that link today:

Most People of European Ancestry Can Be Identified From a Relative’s DNA

This is the key paragraph:

“A second-cousin match is the sweet spot where it’s easy,” says Kennett, whereas a fourth-cousin match might take “thousands and thousands of hours’ work.” Identifying someone through a single third-cousin match is somewhere in the middle: It’s not trivial, but it’s very much possible."

***

I hope that's what is going on in this case behind the scenes...a painstaking 4th cousin family tree build. It's not likely, but IMO that is by far the best hope. In reading about every solved case via genealogical DNA the aspect that stands out is how frequently the term 3rd cousin is used. For more than a year I've been thinking that the related software and methods have got to be improving at rapid rate, to the point the more difficult cases can be attempted. They aren't going to try that type of thing without either high profile urgency, or plenty of money, or most likely a combination of the two. Delphi would seemingly be a great candidate...IF they have sufficient DNA that likely sources from the killer.

I hope that's the case because I'm sick of arguing about the particulars. For example, on another site I received a PM indicating that the hair being drawn on Bridge Guy is intended to mirror a specific suspect. That's why they are so adamant about it...they are trying to draw their guy onto the still frame and convince law enforcement to run around in circles and react. The PMer said not all of the posters are involved in that type of specificity -- that many simply believe it is hair alone -- but the ones taking it furthest own that bias. It makes perfect sense to me because straying from probability to greatest extreme almost always involves agenda fanaticism.

I knew it had to be something like that because one of the related posts matter of factly emphasized local guy. I was thinking...what does hair alone have to do with whether or not he was local?

It does if you're not trying to make a point so much as peg a name

do you know who Limbo's poi is?

 

[cryssyx3]

Had a chance to see 'The Wall' concert in NYC as a kid...I passed!! Lol, got the t-shirt though

oh man, that would have been awesome. I remember my mom going ~25 years ago when we still had 3 rivers stadium in Pittsburgh. I got to see the Wall with Roger Waters ~6 years ago. at the top of the steps of the arena the plane buzzed over my head and crashed, it was awesome. grew up with a dad that kept DSOTM in the cassette deck!

sorry for being off topic.

 

[almagata]

^^^^THIS

If LE have DNA, it could still be very difficult to find this perp. I tend to shy away from speculation about DNA in this case, but the point has to be made here that if, indeed, they have a DNA profile of some sort, the chances of it leading to BG could be slim for any number of reasons.

Like others here have noted upthread, finding genealogical links going back "to the old country" could be difficult. It often times depends upon the country and their records, say going back to the mid-1800's and earlier, and in my own research it can be difficult coming up with names, especially in certain cultures. In my own background, a wife's maiden name might be only in church records, and won't even be in a family Bible or something similar.

Quite frankly a lot of people didn't much care about that stuff "back in the day", and ended up in the U.S., Mexico, Canada, Australia, and any number of other countries without caring much about the past.

GSK was linked through ancestors who were living roughly in the mid-1800's, a third cousin if memory serves. Imagine if the clock were moved back to 1800 or earlier through a much more distant cousin, and how difficult that would be and how much more time it would take. Like others have noted, adoption and other factors could complicate such a task. Census and other records may not be a 100% trustworthy means of tracing some ancestry information.

My paternal grandfather and his three siblings were split up after the flu pandemic around 100 years ago. Two were adopted and no doubt the records were sealed in NY, although he kept in touch with those two siblings. Now imagine I submit my DNA to 23andme or another site, and LE link it to a murder investigation through some distant cousin of mine.

Their grandmother or gr. grandmother or great aunt or whatever is a great aunt of mine but was adopted in 1920, and the records are sealed. Throw in a last name change, a marriage, and other factors, and one can see where this could get complicated.

Software can only do so much, the records I've used are not technically searchable online, say through databases. Some of what I found is online, but the scrolling took many hours and the records were from old newspaper clippings about births, marriages, and obits. This is where the forensic genealogy experts come in to play in these cases, technology alone can not solve these cases. Imagine a group of researchers and detectives requesting information from, say, county courthouses across the U.S., walking through cemeteries, etc.

JMO

The automation of building family trees is improving. 23andme is beta testing a new tool that auto builds a tree based on the people you are related to in their database that have agreed to share their DNA with other users. The program builds a tree based on the percentage of DNA you share with people and it groups the people that share these DNA segments within the same branch of the tree.

What the program does not know is the names of the missing common ancestors.

The members of 23andme can add this relative name information based on their manual research of archives and documents to fill in the missing names.

In a very few number of years these DNA verified trees will have a solid foundation of historical names documented and searches done by Parabon forensic researchers will take very little time. My guess, would be five years or less.

23andMe Introduces the Automated Family Tree

 

[Deleted member 102539]

You mean like CJ? I have thought of him also.

I forgot, who he is?

 

[stattlich1]

DNA. What if two perps were involved, related? Might it be difficult to determine which one killed the girls?

 

[Ozoner]

DNA. What if two perps were involved, related? Might it be difficult to determine which one killed the girls?

It wouldn't matter; they'd both be charged with murder.
-
However, there's no evidence that there were two perps--none whatsoever--so you might as well ask, "What if Santa Claus did it and flew away in his sleigh?" After all, there's just as much evidence for that theory as there is for the theory that there were two perps.

 

[stattlich1]

It wouldn't matter; they'd both be charged with murder.
-
However, there's no evidence that there were two perps--none whatsoever--so you might as well ask, "What if Santa Claus did it and flew away in his sleigh?" After all, there's just as much evidence for that theory as there is for the theory that there were two perps.

What if is all we got my friend. Easy there, you seem to have a chip on your shoulder.

 

[Torch Carrier]

It wouldn't matter; they'd both be charged with murder.
-
However, there's no evidence that there were two perps--none whatsoever--so you might as well ask, "What if Santa Claus did it and flew away in his sleigh?" After all, there's just as much evidence for that theory as there is for the theory that there were two perps.

Could it also be said that there is no evidence suggesting only one perp singly was involved?

 

[tresir2012]

I forgot, who he is?

The preacher that Libby had on her Twitter heading.

 

[tresir2012]

It wouldn't matter; they'd both be charged with murder.
-
However, there's no evidence that there were two perps--none whatsoever--so you might as well ask, "What if Santa Claus did it and flew away in his sleigh?" After all, there's just as much evidence for that theory as there is for the theory that there were two perps.

That's not correct. We have two sketches for one thing. And the first one has not been completely ruled out. There was also indication of more than one perp in early PC's. Also saying the person responsible rather than the person who committed the murder also suggests more than one perp. So your Santa suggestion is silly- but even Santa has helpers as everyone knows.

 

[tresir2012]

True Crime Investigations (AG) has a new you tube out regarding the perp in my signature case (Kirts) and a possible additional victim. Can't link it as it is not an allowed source.

 

[Yemelyan]

I wonder if the DNA may be hard to trace due to an adoption or unknown actual father. As in, BG grew up thinking his 'father' was his real father but the reality is that another man impregnated his mother. Just a random thought.

Yes, I mentioned this here a few months back. You could spend thousands and thousands of hours building out the family tree by triangulating between really distant cousins and then reach a dead end because the child related to that paternal line does not "exist," having been raised as another man's child.

 

[Ozoner]

That's not correct. We have two sketches for one thing. And the first one has not been completely ruled out. There was also indication of more than one perp in early PC's. Also saying the person responsible rather than the person who committed the murder also suggests more than one perp. So your Santa suggestion is silly- but even Santa has helpers as everyone knows.

LE has created confusion with the two sketches, granted. However, it isn't true that there was an indication of two perps at the early PCs. It's disingenuous to say that there was. In response to queries, LE--who hadn't processed their evidence at that point--stated that they couldn't rule out the possibility of two perps. (Of course they couldn't; they weren't ready to rule anything out at that point.)

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Police reveal suspect in Delphi slayings
DELPHI, Ind. —The man in the grainy photo released Wednesday by police is suspected of killing Delphi teens Liberty German and Abigail Williams on Feb. 13, Indiana State Police Sgt. Kim Riley said Sunday afternoon.

The man is not in custody, he said.

Indiana State Police Sgt. Tony Slocum said review of the evidence leads investigators to believe that the man in the photo — at the very least — participated in the killing of German, 14, and Williams, 13.
-.-.-
Could be one perp, could be more perps, IMO.