Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #120

Discussion in 'Located Persons Discussion' started by Tricia, Apr 22, 2019.

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  1. Falling Down

    Falling Down Well-Known Member

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    Nin great to see you here, again, your input is always appreciated.

    I have some still shots I've shared in threads past from Google Earth archives and another aerial imagery archive source, and like Nin I believe there's significance regarding what the terrain was like prior to IN 25 becoming the Hoosier Heartland Highway in 2014.

    The CPS building was completed and opened in 1994, then closed and abandoned ca. 2007. Aerial and Google Earth images from various dates indicate the building was, indeed, abandoned as locals reported early on here in 2017 after the murders.

    The ground adjacent to the building was often used for parking for folks using the trail, prior to 2014, in fact it would have been the only parking area besides the sides of C.R. 300 for trail users until the M family allowed for use of the tiny parking area (3 vehicles, maybe?), that is closed off now from public use. It's private property, anyway.

    From Nin:

    So for years people parked at the old CPS building, then would walk to the bridge on the old railroad right-of-way. The RoW was cleaned up some starting in 2004 according to accounts I've read on bridge enthusiast sites, which I think coincides with the preservation group's founding, IIRC. The old RoW was divided when the new IN 25 was built, the Freedom Bridge now spans the void left behind when the road grade was done. At the west end of Freedom Bridge is the other parking area, which of course did not exist before 2014, and in fact is a berm of sorts created with soil excavated when the road grade was done for the new highway.
    Old 25 runs parallel to the new highway, right around where the turnoff is from IN 25 to get to C.R. 300. The road right-of-ways and arrangements are completely different from what they used to be right in that area, C.R. 300 on both sides of the highway, especially the east side by where the CPS building was, is now slightly east of where it used to be.

    Something freaky for map freaks like myself, check out Google Street View for Old 25 and Samuel Milroy Road right in that area, on the ground in that view you can still follow the road towards the northeast part of Delphi, Google hasn't updated Street View for that little area since 2008.

    The conclusion I've come to is there's a very high likelihood BG not only knows the bridge area and areas immediately around C.R. 300, the "area in question" in this case, but he knew it before the highway opened in 2014. In my mind, again being a map weirdo and I'm an avid hiker, BG knows the area well enough to know where to park, how to get to the bridge, etc., which would have been more challenging had he not known beforehand, and would have made getting out of the area of the CS more difficult had he not known the terrain in the gorge, and the trails in the gorge and how they relate with the main trail to the bridge.

    I believe BG did his homework, but there's also the possibility he's been there many times before in years past. If that's true, to me it still doesn't prove he's "local", as in lives close by. Time enough to get there to kill during the afternoon on a short Winter day, plenty of time to get back to whatever life BG has by 6 PM, and I don't think that's outside any realm of possibility. He could have been home by his usual evening meal time.

    Why would BG park by the CPS building? I think that had he parked on the other side of 25 at the new-ish parking area, by Old 25, he would have risked being seen by more people, and his vehicle would have been noticed and information about it recalled more clearly by witnesses, I just think there was less visibility by parking by the old CPS building. That said, people did see the vehicle, driving by and walking the trail by the trailhead and Freedom Bridge, and I think LE have a general description of it they're "keeping close to the vest", I don't blame them for doing so.

    Hardly any through-traffic on C.R. 300, it's a desolate road most of the time, I've driven it and can attest to that fact. I can recall details of nondescript vehicles in a parking area/lot, better than I ever could of one parked off of a road I'm driving down, even if his vehicle was parked just off of that curve on C.R. 300. I just think BG was depending on basic human psychology to help him slip in and out of that area, his vehicle was most likely nondescript, and as we all know he himself looked nondescript.

    I want this case solved, a killer is on the loose here in the Midwest, and he went through all that trouble to kill two girls.

    JMO
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2020


  2. heartgoesout

    heartgoesout Well-Known Member

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    Welcome to Websleuths Mzfitted.
    Have you been following this case from the beginning?
     
  3. crhedBngr

    crhedBngr Attempting to Keep Calm and Carry On.

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    Thank you for this excellent and detailed post. This is great info, and I think your assumptions about BG are correct.

    Waiting, along with the rest of you, for an arrest.
     
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  4. sleuther0192837465

    sleuther0192837465 Stand up for what is right even if you stand alone

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    :eek: @No it's not :eek: @Falling Down
    Incredible amount of information! Extremely well done! Hands down, the most precise, detailed & well thought out posts I think I have ever seen about Libby & Abby’s case! JMHO! You two truly give me hope this case will be solved!! THANK YOU!!!
     
  5. sleuther0192837465

    sleuther0192837465 Stand up for what is right even if you stand alone

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    ITA!!
     
  6. BeepBeep1

    BeepBeep1 Member

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    IMO he had bad intentions when he went there - if he was local he'd know it was a popular place for teens to hang out and for families with children. So I don't think it would be a stretch that he thought he'd park his car there as an alibi, or simply just so his car wasn't going to be in the parking area on the trail (so he couldn't be identified by his car later, after whatever he was planning). I recently listened to the True Crime Bull**** podcast about Israel Keyes, and he often parked his car in another parking area or around the block/street from the area he was going to strike, to conceal the fact that he was nearby. That way it's harder to link a specific car to the perp.
     
  7. bradfordsleuth

    bradfordsleuth Well-Known Member

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  8. StarryStarryNight

    StarryStarryNight Well-Known Member

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    This information from you and NIN is very very interesting and both your thoughts on how it relates to the case are brilliant. It’s nice to get away from all the speculation and hear some hard information. Plus I’m a map geek too so I doubly loved it!
     
  9. Charlot123

    Charlot123 Well-Known Member

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    Question to the locals. (Without pointing fingers or naming as I don’t yet have a suitable POI, and honestly, never had. I mostly ruled out suspects, for myself). But a theory nonetheless since I never heard it being discussed before.

    What happened that made the CPS building become abandoned in 2007? A building is a costly construction. And were the CPS workers transferred somewhere else? Was the building deemed unsafe for work? Or was the whole local CPS moved to another town?


    I am thinking of a simple scenario. It happens to many working moms. Their kids finish the school day and come at moms’ work to play around, to wait for mom’s day to be over and go/drive home together. Some kids, of 16, looking for a job, would get their first one at parents’ place, copying papers, or organizing things, or filing. (This is actually what lots of “good kids” do).

    Perhaps the CPS workers were not quite local, they might even be commuting from Franklin or Lafayette, and the kid would be there because the mom would be unwilling to leave him at home, for whatever reason?

    Or if the building was huge they would sublet part of it to another business?

    I am thinking of this comment that the person knew the area perfectly well but maybe didn’t know that a new parking lot was built. Yet he was not too well-known to locals, it seems. Yet he knew all the trails, shortcuts, hiding places! So this person could be playing around for days at one point, till boredom, maybe in the 90es, because the parent would tell him to stay put. And later they did not specifically move, but the building was abandoned. The job moved. And it happened no later that 2007. The kid being 16 at the time could be 26 in 2017. If he knew the building in late 90es, maybe older

    ETA: there are many CPS offices in IN
    DCS: Local DCS Offices

    The local one stays in Delphi, just moved.

    What happened to the building to abandon it?

    People can be moved to other offices, too.
    And then they would totally disappear from the radar, as it happened in many cases.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2020
  10. TheVisual

    TheVisual Well-Known Member

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    "Down the Hill" now on HLN
     
  11. No it's not

    No it's not that simple

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    Real good thoughts FD! The last sentence you wrote is key:

    'I want this case solved, a killer is on the loose here in the Midwest, and he went through all that trouble to kill two girls.'

    Why did he go through all that trouble - and risks. He chose (did he?) a remote park area (remote? But then it's a snow day and kids/folks are out there. It is rather warm that day) to find a victim (two?) and to either assault them or murder them or both.

    What was the motive? Thrill? Something happened and he had to silence the girls? How is the situation different now, than it was before the murder? Is there any difference? Besides the family situation changing by murdering the girls, what else changed? Delphi? The park? The bridge? What?

    I know these are no new questions. However, if the killer is somewhat local (Delphi +-60 miles around), and this (a gruesome double murder outside in the woods) never happened in the area, then what happened, that made it happen?
    Somebody moved to the area? From where and why? Or somebody visiting? Again, from where and why? Is there anything special about the area? The park? The bridge? Delphi? Indiana?

    One thing I ran into are these Indiana Gov. approved Legacy Projects. It is a silly thought, but since Delphi and the surroundings are very heritage devoted, did someone try to create their own legacy in a very bizarre and evil way?

    ALL IMO
    -Nin
     
  12. TL4S

    TL4S Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the information. I find maps to be one of the most helpful tools available!

    So before Hoosier Heartland Highway was there, where were the access roads to the CPS building? Was it where 300 meets with Main St.?

    I agree that BG was likely familiar with the 300 rd area. To me, it makes the most sense that he lived on or traveled that road on a regular basis, which meant he knew about the bridge and various parking. I know it isn't a heavily traveled road, but I think it's possible he was already there for another reason when he saw the girls dropped off.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2020
  13. PezCandy

    PezCandy With brave wings she flys

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    Sorry if this has been brought up before, Are the old billboards of OBG still up or did they get replaced with the sketch of NBG? And my other question is, if LE thought that BG was/is a local why were the billboards all over the country? So many questions and not many answers. I’m confident in LE that this man will be caught. Also does anyone think BG might be dead? (Not referring to PE as I don’t think anything came of that)
     
  14. PezCandy

    PezCandy With brave wings she flys

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    When I was in junior high there was a homeless camp behind the school in the wooded park, it was a neat area cuz there was a little river and stuff from pioneer times, there was teepees deeper into the wooded park and that’s where transients stayed, me and a couple girlfriends would make some sandwiches and soup and head over to the camp and give them the food, it would bug my mom because she would always caution us on the dangers of strangers and that they may not always have the good intentions we had. But I had a hard time sleeping at night knowing that these people just down the road from me didn’t have food so I kept on doing it anyways. Well anyway we became familiar with the people down there and they were kind but had a rough life, then there was an incident where one we were not familiar with was starting to stalk and harass people away because he was doing shady business and drugs, even harming the other homeless. After that we didn’t go back there cuz it scared us especially being kids. That’s why I sometimes wonder if a transient was involved in Abby and Libby’s case. Usually transients will keep to themselves but some are fugitives and dangerous and tend to go to secluded places they know.
     
  15. StarryStarryNight

    StarryStarryNight Well-Known Member

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    I really go back and forth on the “is BG a local” thing.
    I think he’s not a local and is an out of area serial killer because no one has identified him(that we know of) and though LE has changed direction in the investigation, initially, LE covered the country in billboards. Plus the FBI was involved.
    I think he’s local and not an out of area serial killer because there have been no other killings tied to this one. I really think we would have heard about it if there was any killings even vaguely similar.
     
  16. bbm
    I think so. MOO
     
  17. 8771

    8771 Well-Known Member

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    DBM
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2020
  18. Falling Down

    Falling Down Well-Known Member

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    I've read and researched a lot of info about IK and his known tactics. Yes, he would often times park his vehicle at a different spot than where, say, "'most" people would.

    Post #7 in the "Possible Sightings" thread for IK is, in my mind, a perfect example of how a killer would target people out in a wooded and/or secluded area, I believe it's a Keyes sighting/encounter and shows how a killer could creep up on a person or a couple to feel them out for an attack:

    Possible Sightings

    Again in my mind this indicates a substantial amount of planning, and some knowledge of the terrain beforehand. Keyes targeted people in the woods who fell into his "trap", a secluded area where he could get a victim or victims away from quickly to an area where he would torture, sexually assault, and murder his victims. Abduct, move them away from the abduction point quickly to a spot he had selected beforehand, then he would do his deeds. I believe BG used a very similar thought process in the Delphi case, with the big exception being A&L were in a place where they could be found fairly easily.

    The SE end of the MHB was BG's trap, so long as his potential victim(s) stayed put and didn't get off of the bridge and away from it.

    JMO
     
  19. chaz

    chaz Well-Known Member

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    It was Libby's dad who went to pick them up. Libby called him just before they got out of herKelsie's car.
     
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  20. 8771

    8771 Well-Known Member

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    Yep, okay - you're right. Thanks! Deleting now
     
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