Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #120

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Very interesting topic. I still think he's a non-local who searched for an isolated area without cameras and where a victim was easily trapped. I believe he may have had more than one location picked out and simply waited for an opportunity to present itself at any of them, while he was there hunting.

We tend to give the criminal too much credit and assign the result to his absolute intention. That is malarkey. They have no idea how anything will unfold, including how the victim(s) will react. They have to make a series of calculations along the way, many in very short time frame. Then either go or abort. I guarantee in the EAR case that DeAngelo went home furious time and again when his original target didn't happen for any number of reasons, including something innocuous like a car parked where it had never been parked during his reconnaissance.

But if Bridge Guy did know the Monon High area previously, instead of discovering it recently online, then absolutely there is great chance he remembered it from the pre-State Road 25 and Freedom Bridge days, and merely operated accordingly on February 13th, 2017, just as he would have 10 years or more earlier. That aspect is seldom if ever discussed.

I know it applies to me on my vacations throughout the country. I like to revisit former spots from trips with my parents decades ago. Frankly I always want to the areas look and function the same as from my memory. If that is not the case I take note of it but I always proceed the same way I would have. I approach from the angle that contains the memories. I park in the comfortable spot, even if it means a longer and more strenuous walk. I traipse and photograph along the familiar path. Only if they physically prevent me from doing what I want to do, then I make annoying adjustments.

Otherwise:

* I agree with the comment that law enforcement press conferences only happen when they are seeking information from the public. Great point. It is the reason I almost hope it doesn't happen on the anniversary or any time soon. Less can be more. The remarks in that recent law enforcement video interview were so pathetic and inept I almost hope they were intentionally that way, to allow impression of befuddlement and nothing going on behind the scenes. How else can I interpret repeated use of such biggies as, "We just need one tip," and "I'm convinced it's a combination of the two sketches."

Nobody can be that bad. At least I hope not. I'd love for Doug Carter to announce an arrest one day while describing everything they had to do to maintain face while it was taking shape.

* Carter was absolutely describing both the Delphi and Flora cases when he said, "Either one..." It was not a slip up or a nod toward multiple offenders in Delphi. It was pure Doug Carter lingo... blending topics and dispensing confusion as a rule. You have to listen to him with translation in mind

* Both podcast series are valuable contributions. "Scene of the Crime" is like an enhanced audio timeline with some new material. "Down the Hill" is put together from a larger company so naturally they have more resources, and devoted them to visiting Delphi for local interviews, ones that are weaved together toward what everyone was thinking at a given time

I agree with all of this.

BG had to have known there were no trail/deer cameras in the area of the gorge, and had to have known prior to Feb. 13th 2017. He would have checked that day, too, I'm sure.

When the still/screen grabs were released early on in the case, I thought it over that weekend and figured they had to have been from a trail camera. Folks were discussing it here.

Then it was revealed they were from a video from Libby's iPhone!

The fact that there were no cameras in the area where BG struck reeks of some serious premeditation on BG's part, he had to have known this, and known it weeks, perhaps even months, beforehand. That Winter was mild, plenty of opportunities for him to go out there from, say, November of '16 right up to the weekend before the murders to scout things out and observe.

JMO
 
* Carter was absolutely describing both the Delphi and Flora cases when he said, "Either one..." It was not a slip up or a nod toward multiple offenders in Delphi. It was pure Doug Carter lingo... blending topics and dispensing confusion as a rule. You have to listen to him with translation in mind

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. Their conversation had most certainly turned back to A&L's case, and I believe, without doubt, Carter refers specifically to two individuals being involved, then tries to backtrack the slip, with the addition of the wording that follows.

"there are multiple ways to resolve this in your mind, in your heart, and in your soul" also follows the previous comment, and is a direct appeal to one's conscience, referring to the one he spoke of earlier, the person who knows what happened, yet is living in fear, afraid to come forward.

No, Carter's not talking about the fire here, he's discussing the A&L case at this juncture in that tape.

MOO
 
From the podcast, “Scene of the Crime”, Robert Ives, then the Carroll County prosecutor, says

“There is a lot of crime scene evidence. Some of it is somewhat odd. But I will say that any crime scene tends to have odd facts about it. I mean, in real life obviously people don’t kill other people all that often. And this crime scene there is a lot of evidence. There’s a lot of unique facts and, honestly, I’m shocked and I promise you the police are shocked that this wasn’t solved in a day or two. This crime scene was physically strange but that’s for the police to decide and determine what to release and not to release. I’ve said that before. It was very odd.”

I found this pretty interesting. The part about the crime scene being “physically strange” and then immediately talking about the police making the decision about releasing evidence made me think that Ives felt there were things at the crime scene that, if released, someone in the public might identify. Whether that would be actual physical objects or how something was done(an odd way of tying something perhaps) we don’t know. This only makes me believe even more strongly that more evidence needs to be released. Do I think that will happen? No. Maybe at the 30 year anniversary. Just my thoughts.
 
I have always believed this is the way it happened. No one the girls knew. If he were a local person, LE would have found him in these three years. It could very well be someone who moves around and can make a quick assessment of the area and the victims before making his move. This is why I am leaning more towards a serial killer or one in the making.

For the record, I still think there could be a connection to the murders of the Evansdale IA cousins, Elizabeth Cook and Lyric Collins, after MJK was eliminated by LE.

When I read your post, it reminded me of Gary Michael Hilton, another serial killer, who used the same sort of methods to find and abduct his victims. In three cases where he was convicted, GMH found his victims in the forests of the Appalachian Trail from NC to FL. He also tortured his victims before murdering and beheading them. There are many other victims he may have killed. At least he's in prison now on death row.
But there are more killers out there that may use this same method. Here is a link to GMH threads in the WS Serial Killers forum where you can read more about him.

Gary M Hilton
I tend to lean toward this killer having been a resident from several years ago or a frequent visitor to a relative in the area. If this was when the killer was in, say, middle school, current residents may not recognize him from the sketch.

That said, I have to concede that while this killer has extensive knowledge of the trail area, it is not that difficult an area to become that familiar with. Having grown up hunting and hiking in woods and swamps in Louisiana, Arkansas and Georgia and played Capture the Flag in the woods, I could have become familiar with that area in one day trip. With Google Maps now, it is even easier. Someone who has hunted, trapped, was into wildlife photography or the sport of orienteering could have learned the area as well. Add in that someone with basic infantry training in the Army or Marines would likely have this skill set. Although, and I can't really point to any evidence why I believe this, I seriously doubt this killer was in the Army or Marines or any military service.
 
I tend to lean toward this killer having been a resident from several years ago or a frequent visitor to a relative in the area. If this was when the killer was in, say, middle school, current residents may not recognize him from the sketch.

That said, I have to concede that while this killer has extensive knowledge of the trail area, it is not that difficult an area to become that familiar with. Having grown up hunting and hiking in woods and swamps in Louisiana, Arkansas and Georgia and played Capture the Flag in the woods, I could have become familiar with that area in one day trip. With Google Maps now, it is even easier. Someone who has hunted, trapped, was into wildlife photography or the sport of orienteering could have learned the area as well. Add in that someone with basic infantry training in the Army or Marines would likely have this skill set. Although, and I can't really point to any evidence why I believe this, I seriously doubt this killer was in the Army or Marines or any military service.

Very possible! In this case it would be one step further than just familiarize yourself with the "hunting grounds". There were folks in the park and they do have a possible witness according to the presser. I would say the killer knew the dynamics of the trail/bridge as well, meaning he knew where to look out for hikers, how to behave if running into a possible witness (if that happened), how to best approach the victims and especially how to get out of Dodge.

The only thing that is bizarre to me is the tight time frame of the events. especially if any staging of the crime scene took place, if - not when. Heck, I could even imagine a scenario, where we have the initial killer and then - an individual, who possibly moved the victims (were they already diseased?) as an afterthought! Why? Property concerns? Set up? Just a theory with a big twist..

ALL IMO

-Nin
 
I tend to lean toward this killer having been a resident from several years ago or a frequent visitor to a relative in the area. If this was when the killer was in, say, middle school, current residents may not recognize him from the sketch.

This is also what I believe. After the murders, if the young sketch had been used and the offender was a resident local, there would have been accusations. The old guy sketch was active at the time (unfortunately), so the offender escaped suspicion during the remainder of his stay in Delphi.

...I can't really point to any evidence why I believe this, I seriously doubt this killer was in the Army or Marines or any military service.

I believe this because people inclined to protect children don't kill them, IMHO. There are always exceptions, but I'm down with this assumption.
 
From the podcast, “Scene of the Crime”, Robert Ives, then the Carroll County prosecutor, says

“There is a lot of crime scene evidence. Some of it is somewhat odd. But I will say that any crime scene tends to have odd facts about it. I mean, in real life obviously people don’t kill other people all that often. And this crime scene there is a lot of evidence. There’s a lot of unique facts and, honestly, I’m shocked and I promise you the police are shocked that this wasn’t solved in a day or two. This crime scene was physically strange but that’s for the police to decide and determine what to release and not to release. I’ve said that before. It was very odd.”

I found this pretty interesting. The part about the crime scene being “physically strange” and then immediately talking about the police making the decision about releasing evidence made me think that Ives felt there were things at the crime scene that, if released, someone in the public might identify. Whether that would be actual physical objects or how something was done(an odd way of tying something perhaps) we don’t know. This only makes me believe even more strongly that more evidence needs to be released. Do I think that will happen? No. Maybe at the 30 year anniversary. Just my thoughts.

I think it is very possible, that they may release more info. That would work for the public as well as adding pressure to a possible (direct) witness or friend/family member, if there is any situation like that.

ALL IMO

-Nin
 
So I am fascinated with the case of Jonelle Matthews. I am linking the article because Steve Pankey has not been formally accused, but is named as the person of interest. It will probably be a stalemate as 23 years later, things are hard to prove.

After Jonelle’s disappearance, he soon moved from CO, and when people move, they disappear from the radar screen. I think I have read somewhere that he planned to move, before Jonelle’s disappearance, put the house on the market, i.e. knew it would happen, before that fateful night.

Much as the case is hard to solve 23 years later (when her remains were found), his story has so many “soft” signs. A prior accusation of rape, him being a youth minister at Jonelle’s church, him being interviewed by an FBI agent and...probably, not looking like a possible poi? So they let him go? Him tracing this case for years afterwards. Growing to be a politician.

Steve Pankey, Person Of Interest In Jonelle Matthews Case, Hopes Girl's Killer Is Found

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.idahostatesman.com/news/local/crime/article234982707.html

I am thinking, what if something similar happened in Delphi? Someone lived there, but already planned to move, maybe even put the house on the market? That person would not be a suspect. He is not there. He might be totally off the radar now.

ETA: here is even a larger article about that case, with some bizarre claims by Steve Pankey. As far as I know, no one has said he is not a poi, although he has not been named as such. His name is in Wikipedia article about Jonelle, and much as Wikipedia is full of mistakes, no one has removed it.

After haunting Colorado for three decades, there is new hope in the Jonelle Matthews case
 
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I've been listening to both podcasts and I think this one is better:
https://www.downthehillpodcast.com/

One thing I found interesting from episode 2 was the expansion of the crime scene that day... from the area that the bodies were found to the bridge (probably from the photo/video/audio) and to the trail head. Does anyone have thoughts on why the trail head was included?
 
I have zero confidence in the sketches so I don't necessarily think that a local would have been recognized by now. Also, if he had his face covered at all, it's also possible that witnesses (including A&L) might not have recognized him even if they did know him?

All of that said, I think it's more of a psychopath SK type that was hunting (versus someone with a "motive"). Maybe local to Delphi or maybe just from a town that is not too far away. I'm probably colored by my recent watching of the new Ted Bundy documentary "Falling for a Killer." When he wanted to rape/kill, nothing could stop him... if he failed, he just moved on to the victim. It's amazing how brazen he was and how long it took to catch him (and keep him). And how he could hide in plain sight because no one would ever think that a good looking, smart man with a "normal" life could do that sort of thing.
 
I've been listening to both podcasts and I think this one is better:
https://www.downthehillpodcast.com/

One thing I found interesting from episode 2 was the expansion of the crime scene that day... from the area that the bodies were found to the bridge (probably from the photo/video/audio) and to the trail head. Does anyone have thoughts on why the trail head was included?
I think because that was where the girls were dropped off?
 
I think because that was where the girls were dropped off?
So you think it's that simple? Just the first place that they were alone that day? Even though we're not aware of anything criminal taking place until they were at the South end of the bridge?
 
So you think it's that simple? Just the first place that they were alone that day? Even though we're not aware of anything criminal taking place until they were at the South end of the bridge?
We just don't know. Perhaps the crime did begin there. Did BG started stalking them at that point? I'm just guessing, and I've always leaned toward the idea that he saw them dropped off and that's what started the ball rolling. Hard to say!
 
I've been listening to both podcasts and I think this one is better:
https://www.downthehillpodcast.com/

One thing I found interesting from episode 2 was the expansion of the crime scene that day... from the area that the bodies were found to the bridge (probably from the photo/video/audio) and to the trail head. Does anyone have thoughts on why the trail head was included?

I need to re-listen to the podcast but didn't Carter say something like, he could guarantee that BG stood at that trailhead gazing at, I think, trail signage? Possibly if they had access to Libby's phone that early on and the recording indicated some initial contact between the girls and BG that occurred at the trail head,or something that referenced the trailhead, they included it for that reason?
 
I need to re-listen to the podcast but didn't Carter say something like, he could guarantee that BG stood at that trailhead gazing at, I think, trail signage? Possibly if they had access to Libby's phone that early on and the recording indicated some initial contact between the girls and BG that occurred at the trail head,or something that referenced the trailhead, they included it for that reason?
That's the direction I was heading in as well... I'm not sure how they'd know that though. Maybe some of the girls chatting talked about the guy they saw at the trailhead? Or maybe they took a selfie that we haven't seen and he was in it? Just wondering b/c I'd never heard that mentioned as part of the crime scene before.
 
I've been listening to both podcasts and I think this one is better:
https://www.downthehillpodcast.com/

One thing I found interesting from episode 2 was the expansion of the crime scene that day... from the area that the bodies were found to the bridge (probably from the photo/video/audio) and to the trail head. Does anyone have thoughts on why the trail head was included?
Quoted bbm
To see if footprints at the trail head matched those at the CS?

JMO
 
So you think it's that simple? Just the first place that they were alone that day? Even though we're not aware of anything criminal taking place until they were at the South end of the bridge?

I’m wondering if that’s where perhaps witnesses saw him so they included that area? Is that the location? Just speculation and wondering.
 
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