Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #121

[Yemelyan]

And the signatures leads to another discussion. If the Delphi killer purposely left signatures, what satisfaction would he achieve if the bodies were not found? The killer in Evansdale appears to gone to great lengths to ensure the bodies would be hard to find, if not impossible. Such an effort might cause such signatures to be eliminated by weather and animals. A wasted effort in the mind of the killer if he left a signature or signatures. That seems to make the argument that the two crimes are not directly related. Unless, again, a killer evolved.

Snipped to focus on the discussion of signatures....

I think you are equating a signature with a "calling card" of the killer that he leaves behind for others to react to. I think that a signature, if Robert Ives is using this term the way psychologists do, must be thought of first and foremost as an outward expression of the killer's inner fantasy about the crime. It's always done for the killer's emotional need firstly. Maybe in some cases it's also done to shock others if that's part of the fantasy but it need not always be.

 

[JnRyan]

Snipped to focus on the discussion of signatures....

I think you are equating a signature with a "calling card" of the killer that he leaves behind for others to react to. I think that a signature, if Robert Ives is using this term the way psychologists do, must be thought of first and foremost as an outward expression of the killer's inner fantasy about the crime. It's always done for the killer's emotional need firstly. Maybe in some cases it's also done to shock others if that's part of the fantasy but it need not always be.

What is the difference between a "calling card" and a "signature"? In the down the hill podcast I thought the retired FBI profiler stated that MO should not be confused with signature. She stated that a signature is over and beyond what was necessary to kill the victim or words to that effect. In that regard, if I remember what she said correctly, a killer that stabs a victim an excessive number of times might be a signature. Or a killer that mutilates a body in a specific fashion might be a signature. But if a killer mutilates a body in a certain manner wouldn't that also be a "calling card"?

 

[JnRyan]

Regarding Modus Operadi (MO), Signature and Calling Card from what I can find.
Difference between MO and Signature I found in a number of places. This crime blog covers both:
Offender’s Signature vs. Modus Operandi

An extraction from the above lists examples of MO and Signature.
Here are a few examples of a criminal’s MO:

• The type of restraints used on the victim, wound patterns, and type of fiber of the restraints.
• Type of weapon used, such as knife, blunt object, or gun.
• Tape found on victim that was used to bind hands and cover mouth.
• Tools used to gain entry to victim’s home.
• Attack could be from when the victim exits their vehicle or walks through a dark parking garage.
• Time of day that the offender chooses to commit the crime, such as nighttime or early morning.
• Lack of fingerprints that would indicate the offender used gloves.

A signature refers to the distinctive behaviors that help to serve the criminal’s psychological and emotional needs. Physical evidence helps to establish the signature behaviors of the criminal who committed the specific crime.

Here are a few examples of criminal signatures:

• Level of injury to the victim, minimal or excessive.
• Specific location or sequence to the criminal act.
• Ejaculation, urination, and/or defecation at the crime scene.
• Specific type of weapon used.
• Personal items taken from victim.
• Specific type of victim targeted that refers to age, race, occupation, or other physical characteristics.
• Anything specifically left at the crime scene, such as a note or object.

******
That last point, "Anything specifically left at the crime scene, such as a note or object." would seem to be the same as a calling card? So is a "calling card" a type or subset of signatures?

Wikipedia has a page on "Calling Cards":
Calling card (crime) - Wikipedia
"In criminology, a calling card is a particular object sometimes left behind by a criminal at a scene of a crime, often as a way of taunting police or claiming responsibility."
This would lead me to believe a "calling card" is type of "signature". But there are other "signatures" that might apply.

 

[MissUnderstood]

I’m still not sure if there is DNA evidence in this case, but just wondering what the laws are surrounding the use of familial DNA from ancestry or GED match. Is there a time period that needs to pass before this can be done? I know there has been a lot of cold cases solved, but I’m not sure I have heard of recent ones solved this way. TIA

 

[Yemelyan]

Snipped by me

Regarding Modus Operadi (MO), Signature and Calling Card from what I can find.

******
That last point, "Anything specifically left at the crime scene, such as a note or object." would seem to be the same as a calling card? So is a "calling card" a type or subset of signatures?

Wikipedia has a page on "Calling Cards":
Calling card (crime) - Wikipedia
"In criminology, a calling card is a particular object sometimes left behind by a criminal at a scene of a crime, often as a way of taunting police or claiming responsibility."
This would lead me to believe a "calling card" is type of "signature". But there are other "signatures" that might apply.

Yes, I think you have it now. I'll give you an example. Let's say there's a killer who targets females walking in a secluded park and he kills them by strangling them. The MO would deal with how he found his victims, how he controlled them, and the particular way he killed them. But, let's say that while committing the crime, his fantasy was to play God by strangling them to the point of unconsciousness, then letting them revive several times before succumbing. This wasn't necessary to end their lives, but it was a part of the crime that fulfils his own deep emotional need for control, something he had fantasized about doing well before ever committing the crime, and would be a signature. Furthermore, let's say that afterwards he feels the need to cover the bodies with leaves, not to conceal his crime but because he feels some tiny bit of remorse. Doesn't matter if it's his first kill or 20th, this act would be a signature as it speaks to his personation of the crime.

In crimes where the offender engaged in a great deal of fantasy and planning beforehand, you might see some very elaborate signatures. Offenders do experiment with signatures as their fantasies evolve. While some signatures may be meant to become known to LE or others, as part of a fantasy to cause shock or fear (and I guess you could colloquially name these the "calling cards,"), others may be done solely for the private pleasure of the offender and it may not be that obvious, even to investigators, just what specific acts the killer carried out.

 

[Charlot123]

The bridge needs to be renovated. Otherwise it continues to deteriorate and an accident is inevitable. We can't wait for Bridge Guy to be captured because there isn't a logical timetable. These threads could be going a decade from now.

After I walked the bridge in November my immediate thought was that it needs to be fully fenced off near the foot of the bridge so other knuckleheads can't do what I did...effortlessly loop around the gate with the lock and warning sign. That discourages nothing.

Planks are soft and squishy. That's the overriding problem that is seldom mentioned and won't show up in any drone video. It's not a big deal avoiding the missing plank or the areas where the gaps are widest. The planks vary wildly in terms of stability and it isn't always obvious via appearance. Maybe 1/3 of the way through I put my left foot forward on a seemingly solid plank. Next thing you know it's giving way to the point I'm leaning backward and doing a full two-armed whirlybird trying to regain my balance.

Fortunately it succeeded. I don't want to guess what would have happened if I'd fallen fully backward into the planks. But a situation like that is why I decided beforehand to stop and film at only certain intervals, instead of filming while walking as others have.

Maybe 100 feet later there was another lesser version of the same thing. That's when I decided there was no chance I'm crossing again on the way back. It ended up a one hour detour through the woods but that was perfectly acceptable.

Also, the platforms on the bridge seem secure but just imagine if one of them goes. Nothing can save you. That could happen without warning. It would be favorite to give way in an instant without warning. At least if a plank gave way you might be able to fall in such a manner not to go through the opening.

Charming visuals, huh?

Such a great area. I walked several trails in Delphi including Canal Park area, Trailhead Park area and Moyer Gould Woods. Monon High is far the best kept and most scenic. It deserves to be the centerpiece. I've read the details of the planned renovation including rails and an expanded trail all the way back to Delphi. That's a mile away.

Very ambitious and admirable but I have no idea how they can do it for that price tag. Maybe I'm using my area as reference. The permitting alone would run $260,000.

@Awsi Dooger , thank you for your very interesting description.

I have a question, is the bridge needed? Strategically? I have seen many European cities where bridges play the functional role, connecting two parts of the city divided by the major river, and without them, normal functioning of the cities would be impossible. Some are drawn up overnight, effectively disconnecting the two parts of the cities.

But in Delphi, is it easy to get to both sides of the creek sans the bridge? Does the bridge even form a shortcut across the creek? Or is it just an old, shaky, ornament?

I think there may be increased tourism into the town because of the murders, but to me, it is like a curiosity delay. Maybe it is just me, but won't it be easier to just close that bridge? It is morbid, bad history.

 

[Charlot123]

Snipped by me



Yes, I think you have it now. I'll give you an example. Let's say there's a killer who targets females walking in a secluded park and he kills them by strangling them. The MO would deal with how he found his victims, how he controlled them, and the particular way he killed them. But, let's say that while committing the crime, his fantasy was to play God by strangling them to the point of unconsciousness, then letting them revive several times before succumbing. This wasn't necessary to end their lives, but it was a part of the crime that fulfils his own deep emotional need for control, something he had fantasized about doing well before ever committing the crime, and would be a signature. Furthermore, let's say that afterwards he feels the need to cover the bodies with leaves, not to conceal his crime but because he feels some tiny bit of remorse. Doesn't matter if it's his first kill or 20th, this act would be a signature as it speaks to his personation of the crime.

In crimes where the offender engaged in a great deal of fantasy and planning beforehand, you might see some very elaborate signatures. Offenders do experiment with signatures as their fantasies evolve. While some signatures may be meant to become known to LE or others, as part of a fantasy to cause shock or fear (and I guess you could colloquially name these the "calling cards,"), others may be done solely for the private pleasure of the offender and it may not be that obvious, even to investigators, just what specific acts the killer carried out.

And it sometimes happens that a wife, or a girlfriend, also is on the receiving end of the erotic asphyxiation game. She knows the guy likes it. She may be the only person alive who knows his sexual preferences.

This is why it is tough decision what to release, and what to keep. After all, the girlfriend of Ted Bundy who reported him...she saw some abnormality. Enough to give the police a call.

I think that keeping everything close to the vest doesn't work. The problem is, it might be too late to release the information. Initially, there was dread and disgust with the crime. Now, people have moved on, and maybe he moved on, and got a divorce, or changed a girlfriend. Everything needs to be done in time.

 

[Charlot123]

Regarding Modus Operadi (MO), Signature and Calling Card from what I can find.
Difference between MO and Signature I found in a number of places. This crime blog covers both:
Offender’s Signature vs. Modus Operandi

An extraction from the above lists examples of MO and Signature.
Here are a few examples of a criminal’s MO:

• The type of restraints used on the victim, wound patterns, and type of fiber of the restraints.
• Type of weapon used, such as knife, blunt object, or gun.
• Tape found on victim that was used to bind hands and cover mouth.
• Tools used to gain entry to victim’s home.
• Attack could be from when the victim exits their vehicle or walks through a dark parking garage.
• Time of day that the offender chooses to commit the crime, such as nighttime or early morning.
• Lack of fingerprints that would indicate the offender used gloves.

A signature refers to the distinctive behaviors that help to serve the criminal’s psychological and emotional needs. Physical evidence helps to establish the signature behaviors of the criminal who committed the specific crime.

Here are a few examples of criminal signatures:

• Level of injury to the victim, minimal or excessive.
• Specific location or sequence to the criminal act.
• Ejaculation, urination, and/or defecation at the crime scene.
• Specific type of weapon used.
• Personal items taken from victim.
• Specific type of victim targeted that refers to age, race, occupation, or other physical characteristics.
• Anything specifically left at the crime scene, such as a note or object.

******
That last point, "Anything specifically left at the crime scene, such as a note or object." would seem to be the same as a calling card? So is a "calling card" a type or subset of signatures?

Wikipedia has a page on "Calling Cards":
Calling card (crime) - Wikipedia
"In criminology, a calling card is a particular object sometimes left behind by a criminal at a scene of a crime, often as a way of taunting police or claiming responsibility."
This would lead me to believe a "calling card" is type of "signature". But there are other "signatures" that might apply.

Maybe MO is the same as "handwriting"? When an expert, graphologist-criminologist, so to say, could recognize the familiar style?
But I think that the type of the victim targeted is rather MO.

 

[Charlot123]

I’m still not sure if there is DNA evidence in this case, but just wondering what the laws are surrounding the use of familial DNA from ancestry or GED match. Is there a time period that needs to pass before this can be done? I know there has been a lot of cold cases solved, but I’m not sure I have heard of recent ones solved this way. TIA

From Ancestry, there is no way to use it, as Ancestry is a private company and does not give LE access to its database, nor would it allow to upload someone's DNA in its format. They can make money by selling bulk data to pharmaceutical companies, but bulk data is anonymous. But selling your genetic data to LE would end up in massive lawsuits for them, and the company would never risk it.

Gedmatch was an open access, public database, and this is why it was possible to use it to catch GSK. I understand that nowadays, you have to opt in in Gedmatch to allow your DNA to be used by LE. I read that after the publication about GSK, the pool of DNAs available for comparison shrank by the factor of 10.

So even if LE bypasses the "opt in" clause and uses all Gedmatch database to compare, and the closest match did not opt in, but they still use him to make a tree and zoom on the killer, any good lawyer at the process might tear the case into pieces.

Recent cases are not solved this way because people nowadays understand they can't leave their DNA in the places of the crime.

 

[distracted]

There are a few similarities, but one glaring difference to me is BG was on foot, and went through a lot of trouble to get the girls to the CS. Again, on foot.

It bears mentioning, again. The new IN 25 was only 2.5 years old when the murders happened, and that's where I agree with your good post and the circumstances of both cases. A highway offering easy entrance and egress to and from the areas in question.

JMO

True, he was on foot but he may have been in a car when he saw the girls being dropped off. If this is the case, he would have been on foot to follow them out of necessity.

If both cases were crimes of opportunity, then he would have to adapt. In Evansdale, the girls' bikes were found at the place where he took them. In this case, it would have been more difficult to take them without drawing attention.

Also, the fact that both cases involve a "pair", I think is significant considering the proximity and the rarity of a double murder like both of these cases. I also can't discount the billboards.

I read a VERY detailed blog about the Evansdale murders and I now lean more toward there being a connection than not.

 

[TL4S]

Regarding Modus Operadi (MO), Signature and Calling Card from what I can find.
Difference between MO and Signature I found in a number of places. This crime blog covers both:
Offender’s Signature vs. Modus Operandi

An extraction from the above lists examples of MO and Signature.
Here are a few examples of a criminal’s MO:

• The type of restraints used on the victim, wound patterns, and type of fiber of the restraints.
• Type of weapon used, such as knife, blunt object, or gun.
• Tape found on victim that was used to bind hands and cover mouth.
• Tools used to gain entry to victim’s home.
• Attack could be from when the victim exits their vehicle or walks through a dark parking garage.
• Time of day that the offender chooses to commit the crime, such as nighttime or early morning.
• Lack of fingerprints that would indicate the offender used gloves.

A signature refers to the distinctive behaviors that help to serve the criminal’s psychological and emotional needs. Physical evidence helps to establish the signature behaviors of the criminal who committed the specific crime.

Here are a few examples of criminal signatures:

• Level of injury to the victim, minimal or excessive.
• Specific location or sequence to the criminal act.
• Ejaculation, urination, and/or defecation at the crime scene.
• Specific type of weapon used.
• Personal items taken from victim.
• Specific type of victim targeted that refers to age, race, occupation, or other physical characteristics.
• Anything specifically left at the crime scene, such as a note or object.

******
That last point, "Anything specifically left at the crime scene, such as a note or object." would seem to be the same as a calling card? So is a "calling card" a type or subset of signatures?

Wikipedia has a page on "Calling Cards":
Calling card (crime) - Wikipedia
"In criminology, a calling card is a particular object sometimes left behind by a criminal at a scene of a crime, often as a way of taunting police or claiming responsibility."
This would lead me to believe a "calling card" is type of "signature". But there are other "signatures" that might apply.

Thanks for the link. In this case, I keep coming back to the creek crossing. It's always bothered me.

There are a hundred theories existing within these threads as to why they crossed the creek. I've only really considered about a handful of them as reasonable, but with RI's recent comments about the CS being "odd," and there being "signatures," I now have to ask myself what role the creek might have actually played for BG in this crime, aside from simply being an obstacle to overcome.

BG could have taken the girls to another hidden location to kill them. One that did not include crossing the creek. He even could have risked killing them in the woods below the bridge. But if he did indeed lead them across, why? Drowning alone would be MO, IMO, although that could have been a factor. I don't, personally, believe there was time or planning enough for some of the religious, ritualistic ideas for the creek's involvement, but I do think leading the girls through cold, somewhat deep running water in the middle of winter, and especially having to go through it himself, was strange and totally unnecessary for the crime, and thus an "odd" "signature." IDK...just a very random thought I'm having.

 

[Falling Down]

Agreed and I wanted to add that there was extensive highway construction in the area of both Meyers Lake in IA (The I380 construction in Evansdale was going on before and during the the same time as Lyric and Lizzie’s case) and there was extensive highway construction before Abby and Libby’s case on IN25 in Delphi. Both highway constructions completely changed the areas of both cases. I can’t rule out that BG was a highway construction worker in both areas going to where the jobs were to be found or that he could possibly be an environmental impact engineer who had to scout these areas extensively for his job.
ETA -I’m not sure if there was construction on IN 25 in Delphi during or after Feb 17 so I edited my post.
MOO

I've had similar thoughts.

IN 25/Hoosier Heartland Highway was completed through there in 2014.

 

[Falling Down]

Thanks for the link. In this case, I keep coming back to the creek crossing. It's always bothered me.

There are a hundred theories existing within these threads as to why they crossed the creek. I've only really considered about a handful of them as reasonable, but with RI's recent comments about the CS being "odd," and there being "signatures," I now have to ask myself what role the creek might have actually played for BG in this crime, aside from simply being an obstacle to overcome.

BG could have taken the girls to another hidden location to kill them. One that did not include crossing the creek. He even could have risked killing them in the woods below the bridge. But if he did indeed lead them across, why? Drowning alone would be MO, IMO, although that could have been a factor. I don't, personally, believe there was time or planning enough for some of the religious, ritualistic ideas for the creek's involvement, but I do think leading the girls through cold, somewhat deep running water in the middle of winter, and especially having to go through it himself, was strange and totally unnecessary for the crime, and thus an "odd" "signature." IDK...just a very random thought I'm having.

It bothers me, too. A lot of trouble to go through for murder.

JMO

 

[TL4S]

It bothers me, too. A lot of trouble to go through for murder.

JMO

For sure. Some of my most off-the-wall theories stem from trying to make sense of crossing the creek. I know LE can say practically anything they want, but why did Holeman specifically say the reenactments are wrong? They all include BG leading the girls across the creek. That's why I keep wondering if maybe he didn't.

The scary thing about the creek is it could have carried a lot of evidence away. What if he wanted to wash his hands, or urinate, or sexually gratify himself afterwards? Do it into the creek and nobody would know.

 

[JnRyan]

For sure. Some of my most off-the-wall theories stem from trying to make sense of crossing the creek. I know LE can say practically anything they want, but why did Holeman specifically say the reenactments are wrong? They all include BG leading the girls across the creek. That's why I keep wondering if maybe he didn't.

The scary thing about the creek is it could have carried a lot of evidence away. What if he wanted to wash his hands, or urinate, or sexually gratify himself afterwards? Do it into the creek and nobody would know.

I've wondered about 1st Sgt Holeman's remark, too. (Summer 2018 interview?) Is it a play on words by simply stating the reenactments are wrong? IOW, Anthony Greeno may have it 80% right, as an example, and Gray Hughes, maybe 80%, too. In those examples is he implying they're wrong because they are not 100%? I can't believe, with what we have been provided, that some of these reenactments haven't come close.

I don't have a cell phone capable of a video so I don't how long Liberty's phone would have kept running either. But at a certain point - probably very early on - I'll bet Liberty hid the phone in her pocket or in her pants under her hoodie. If that is the case, LE has audio but not video from that point. Probably just before they walked off the bridge.

 

[TL4S]

Yeah, that's a good point. It could be a commonly depicted detail that isn't right, ie. BG had a gun, or he engaged them immediately at the end of the bridge, etc.

I still have trouble accepting that two girls who were doubtful and astute enough to film this guy would then remain right there where he would inevitably reach them. Again, I'm not questioning their decisions. BG made sure they didn't have a lot of options. But I can completely see them casually going down onto the road, or into the woods, just to avoid interacting with him. Imagine if they did, what it must have felt like to see him following them down instead of recrossing the bridge as they had hoped. Makes me sick.

 

[HockeyMom330]

Yeah, that's a good point. It could be a commonly depicted detail that isn't right, ie. BG had a gun, or he engaged them immediately at the end of the bridge, etc.

I still have trouble accepting that two girls who were doubtful and astute enough to film this guy would then remain right there where he would inevitably reach them. Again, I'm not questioning their decisions. BG made sure they didn't have a lot of options. But I can completely see them casually going down onto the road, or into the woods, just to avoid interacting with him. Imagine if they did, what it must have felt like to see him following them down instead of recrossing the bridge as they had hoped. Makes me sick.

BBM
I imagine that the girls didn't have a lot of time to react once they realized they were in danger and Libby flipped on her phone. If BG was really only about 60 ft away at the time of the recording, he would have closed in on them in seconds (this is also why I don't think there is much more video evidence of BG to share with the public).

The girls were basically trapped because running back across the bridge would be impossible, and if he pulled out a weapon of some sort, they girls may have frozen in fear. The brain's response is flight or fight or freeze.

 

[KAYTOM]

One similarity that bothers me between the Delphi and Evansdale cases is crime scene proximity to a major highway system.

There's Interstate 380/hwy 20 directly south of Meyer's Lake in Evansdale, and the Hoosier Heartland Highway just west of the Monon High Bridge Trail. I know the Evansdale girls were moved to another location, but if it's a SK, and that was his first murder, maybe by the time he got to Delphi he didn't want the hassle or risk of transporting.

Anyway, it's probably not significant, but when I look at the maps, that's the first thing that stands out. It makes me wonder about the side roads around and under those major highways, too. Someone traveling a regular route, for whatever reason, and it involves taking exits on and off those highways routinely, and he happens to see girls alone in wooded areas...

Also of note, there's a waterway (Cedar River - IA, Deer Creek - IN) nearby in both cases, along with park grounds, bridges that cross the waterway, and nature trails.

That caught my eye as well when I first heard about both of the above cases as well as the West Memphis case in 93. There was a murder near my home town that involved a trucker leaving a rest stop at night and walking a half mile to kill a women outside her house about 10 years ago. He was caught and it turned out that he had multiple home intrusions before he committed a murder.

I occasionally have to work with salesmen for various products and what's interesting is that on the East Coast, there territories are often much smaller due to the density, whereas in the midwest their territory might be 4 to 5 states. A smaller vehicle compared to a tractor trailer would be much less notable going into neighborhoods or pulled off the side of the road.

One point with the Evansdale murders is that the bike trail they used looked to go through the entire town, and it's not uncommon for Pedo's to choose a home near a playground, school or some sort of recreational area. The trail would offer easy access and a lot of cover. Not sure on the girl's exact route, but it does make you wonder about the Evansdale and the West Memphis child murders that had multiple access points, nearby highways and nearby houses. After this poor Faye Swetlick case I'm starting to wonder a lot more if these cases could have been a neighbor that frequented the crime scene, planned it out and went through with it. The Jacob Wetterling case was another neighbor case and I know of one other that happened recently to a poor neighbor girl that I can't remember the name of.

 

[TL4S]

BBM
I imagine that the girls didn't have a lot of time to react once they realized they were in danger and Libby flipped on her phone. If BG was really only about 60 ft away at the time of the recording, he would have closed in on them in seconds (this is also why I don't think there is much more video evidence of BG to share with the public).

The girls were basically trapped because running back across the bridge would be impossible, and if he pulled out a weapon of some sort, they girls may have frozen in fear. The brain's response is flight or fight or freeze.

I totally agree. It all could have happened too quickly for the girls to react, especially with no real options on where to go and/or if he immediately pulled a gun. That said, the family has commented that the girls were discussing where they could go during the bridge video. They clearly didn't want to interact with him. That's why I can't completely dismiss the idea of them going below the bridge to avoid him. 60 feet is not right on top of them, it might have given them a short time to walk away from the end of the bridge before he got there. Either way, he had them pinned and they really didn't have a way out.

 

[M. Kay]

I don't have a link to support this, yet saw three crime investigators onscreen at same time agreeing the girls fled through creek and killer followed. It wasn't his plan to lead them across the water. Scene got out of his control immediately. This could be.