Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #122

[sunshineray]

That is the one thing from the 2019 press conference and interviews immediately afterward that stands out to me...”we feel like we were on to some thing early on.” Everything else in that PC has been a huge bust in my opinion. (The new sketch and the old sketch have been rendered virtually useless by LE’s going back and forth on them, “The Shack” meant nothing, the people of Delphi still don’t recognize this person supposedly from Delphi, the car at CPS lead nowhere, etc).
But “we feel like we were on to something early on” that could stand some looking into. The early search warrants, Indiana Packers, early interviewees, early suspects. I’m most interested in the early search warrants but I know it’s been hard to get information on them.

The very early local searches greatly interest me also especially since the federals were involved in them right at the start.

 

[MistyWaters]

I've always thought it was interesting that LE asked the public about seeing someone walking or hitching or seeing a duffel bag along Hoosier Highway. BG might have had a change of clothes stashed somewhere to change into after murders but I don't think from the look of him in Libby's video that he had a double set of clothes on before he abducted and killed the girls. JMO

Tips pour in after suspect identified in Delphi double homicide

Yes, I’ve wondered what set LE off in that direction too. It more or less gave the impression the suspect was believed to have been someone passing through, then came the FBI billboards everywhere and the search became national if not international. Unless it was a very strong lead, it’s highly unusual to not focus on the local area first IMO.

Has there ever been a murder committed by someone wearing a double set of clothing or padding, particularly targeting two victims? It would seem very awkward to me in terms of mobility.

 

[Awsi Dooger]

In various podcasts it seems like profilers suppose that Carter was speaking to the killer in an attempt to agitate him and they believe his speech was “scripted” to try to tease a response from the killer, put him under pressure, etc. Carter talks about his belief that the killer has one shred of a conscience left. And yet other profilers talk about how a killer like this would go home and eat a hamburger and not worry at all about the victims. So which is it? Does a killer like this have a conscience? I wouldn’t think so. But in Carter’s speech in the last press conference he is attempting to appeal to that conscience. This confuses me.

MOO, IMO etc.

That presser by Doug Carter was the opposite of scripted. He developed cold feet at the last second and therefore rambled throughout the presentation while deciding what the heck he was going to say. There is evidence of that on both sides of the presser. That's why this is not a guess. We have the official press release that describes what Carter was supposed to say, "We have a witness. You made mistakes. " Then we have the clarification statement released a couple of days after the presser. Those sentences were posted recently in this thread, the ones saying the first sketch is no longer a person of interest.

That clarification statement was necessary solely because Doug Carter wobbled so badly and refused to commit to the younger sketch, even though that younger sketch was the centerpiece of the presser and had obviously been an ongoing project for months.

Imagine what the rest of the department was thinking when their spokesman was up there emotionally wandering all over the place, and omitting the key aspect, the entire reason they were there in the first place. The others did a good job patching things together. But the only thing anyone remembers is Doug Carter and The Shack.

I guarantee FBI officials were in disbelief that the local guy veered so weakly. And then the FBI guys have to read speculation that they were responsible for that fragile presentation. Yep, it reads exactly like something from the FBI. A swing and a miss is best interpreted as a swing and a miss, not as a clever ploy.

 

[MistyWaters]

The drone photos are excellent. One of the best things I've seen in a long time in regard to this case. They should be part of the videos thread.

Those photos are the best depiction of how wide open Hoosier Heartland Highway is, regardless of the Lafayette direction or the Logansport direction from Delphi. That aspect stunned me before I got within 15 miles of Delphi. I kept repeating to myself, "He was long gone." As you can see from those drone photos there is nothing near the highway like homes or convenience stores or gas stations or anything else. Mile after mile. Wide open spaces. No threat of stoppages. Really the only opportunity to capture something would have been a faraway view from one of those buildings near Freedom Bridge, or cameras on Freedom Bridge itself. Those do not exist, or did not exist in February 2017. I'm sure Bridge Guy checked that beforehand.

Also, Falling Down pointed out recently in this thread that Bridge Guy had to get the girls down the hill, and once they were down the hill they were essentially trapped. Exactly correct. It feels like a different world down there. You might scream but there's no guarantee anyone will hear, let alone react anytime soon. I felt like I could have screamed at the top of my lungs and I'd be waiting 15 minutes for anyone to react. Where are they going to come from?

Once down the hill the only escape route that doesn't require a considerable obstacle is the narrow passageway back underneath the bridge. Everything else is either severely uphill or across the creek. Here is one photo I took while walking toward Deer Creek. I wanted to demonstrate how steep the hill is and also that it is not square. It curves around, essentially boxing you in even more. The home atop the ridge would be up to the far right of this photo. The girls could have run there easily atop the bridge. Once down below it is exponentially more difficult. The likely route to Deer Creek is angling left from this photo, maybe 30 degrees.

Imgur

Heck, I'll include a second one. This is more the direct route to the creek. It's possible they may have angled somewhat left of this, given more open spaced in February than I saw in November. The hill from the prior photo is visible at top right. It would be 15 yards to your right during this fateful walk:

Imgur

If I had to guess I'd say Bridge Guy remained to the girls' left as they walked toward the creek, solely to keep them furthest away from their best escape direction.

As you’re familiar with the area, any guesses as to what “certain things” Sheriff Leazenby might be referring to?

BBM
“Leazenby wouldn't discuss the evidence or details of the investigation, but said "our investigators still have things they're following, whether it's new information or going back and looking at certain pieces from the past."

The sheriff said he thinks the killer has a connection to Delphi, "whether it's an individual that previously lived in our community and knows the area where the girls were located very well, or possibly is still in our community."

Carter also believes the killer has a connection to Delphi, and ABC News contributor and former FBI agent Brad Garrett agrees, noting that the hiking trail is probably too remote to attract outsiders.

"Unless someone absolutely somehow studied that [trail] in great depth, they would not know specifically where certain things were," added the sheriff.

'Epitome of evil': Delphi double murder still a mystery 3 years later

 

[sunshineray]

The drone photos are excellent. One of the best things I've seen in a long time in regard to this case. They should be part of the videos thread.

Those photos are the best depiction of how wide open Hoosier Heartland Highway is, regardless of the Lafayette direction or the Logansport direction from Delphi. That aspect stunned me before I got within 15 miles of Delphi. I kept repeating to myself, "He was long gone." As you can see from those drone photos there is nothing near the highway like homes or convenience stores or gas stations or anything else. Mile after mile. Wide open spaces. No threat of stoppages. Really the only opportunity to capture something would have been a faraway view from one of those buildings near Freedom Bridge, or cameras on Freedom Bridge itself. Those do not exist, or did not exist in February 2017. I'm sure Bridge Guy checked that beforehand.

Also, Falling Down pointed out recently in this thread that Bridge Guy had to get the girls down the hill, and once they were down the hill they were essentially trapped. Exactly correct. It feels like a different world down there. You might scream but there's no guarantee anyone will hear, let alone react anytime soon. I felt like I could have screamed at the top of my lungs and I'd be waiting 15 minutes for anyone to react. Where are they going to come from?

Once down the hill the only escape route that doesn't require a considerable obstacle is the narrow passageway back underneath the bridge. Everything else is either severely uphill or across the creek. Here is one photo I took while walking toward Deer Creek. I wanted to demonstrate how steep the hill is and also that it is not square. It curves around, essentially boxing you in even more. The home atop the ridge would be up to the far right of this photo. The girls could have run there easily atop the bridge. Once down below it is exponentially more difficult. The likely route to Deer Creek is angling left from this photo, maybe 30 degrees.

Imgur

Heck, I'll include a second one. This is more the direct route to the creek. It's possible they may have angled somewhat left of this, given more open spaced in February than I saw in November. The hill from the prior photo is visible at top right. It would be 15 yards to your right during this fateful walk:

Imgur

If I had to guess I'd say Bridge Guy remained to the girls' left as they walked toward the creek, solely to keep them furthest away from their best escape direction.

This is the area that I've talked about before giving me the creeps actually, when I watched one of the walkabout youtube videos. It made me think, seeing it unfold before me, that this might have been BG's original area to bring the girls but they tried to get away towards the creek.

 

[sunshineray]

That presser by Doug Carter was the opposite of scripted. He developed cold feet at the last second and therefore rambled throughout the presentation while deciding what the heck he was going to say. There is evidence of that on both sides of the presser. That's why this is not a guess. We have the official press release that describes what Carter was supposed to say, "We have a witness. You made mistakes. " Then we have the clarification statement released a couple of days after the presser. Those sentences were posted recently in this thread, the ones saying the first sketch is no longer a person of interest.

That clarification statement was necessary solely because Doug Carter wobbled so badly and refused to commit to the younger sketch, even though that younger sketch was the centerpiece of the presser and had obviously been an ongoing project for months.

Imagine what the rest of the department was thinking when their spokesman was up there emotionally wandering all over the place, and omitting the key aspect, the entire reason they were there in the first place. The others did a good job patching things together. But the only thing anyone remembers is Doug Carter and The Shack.

I guarantee FBI officials were in disbelief that the local guy veered so weakly. And then the FBI guys have to read speculation that they were responsible for that fragile presentation. Yep, it reads exactly like something from the FBI. A swing and a miss is best interpreted as a swing and a miss, not as a clever ploy.

I politely disagree. I think ISP Carter's emotions were involved. Remember he'd just told the same info to the families only moments before the PC started. I'm sure their reactions were upset and confused. Some of his language may have happened spontaneously because he was still bothered by those interactions with family. I believe his calling out of the killer was absolutely planned. IMO

 

[MistyWaters]

That presser by Doug Carter was the opposite of scripted. He developed cold feet at the last second and therefore rambled throughout the presentation while deciding what the heck he was going to say. There is evidence of that on both sides of the presser. That's why this is not a guess. We have the official press release that describes what Carter was supposed to say, "We have a witness. You made mistakes. " Then we have the clarification statement released a couple of days after the presser. Those sentences were posted recently in this thread, the ones saying the first sketch is no longer a person of interest.

That clarification statement was necessary solely because Doug Carter wobbled so badly and refused to commit to the younger sketch, even though that younger sketch was the centerpiece of the presser and had obviously been an ongoing project for months.

Imagine what the rest of the department was thinking when their spokesman was up there emotionally wandering all over the place, and omitting the key aspect, the entire reason they were there in the first place. The others did a good job patching things together. But the only thing anyone remembers is Doug Carter and The Shack.

I guarantee FBI officials were in disbelief that the local guy veered so weakly. And then the FBI guys have to read speculation that they were responsible for that fragile presentation. Yep, it reads exactly like something from the FBI. A swing and a miss is best interpreted as a swing and a miss, not as a clever ploy.

I agree 100% and you stated it very well.

The press conference was so bungled that ISP had to issue clarifications to facts and details in order to correct statements made by their Superintendent, the head honcho, the face of ISP. How unusual is that!

Indiana State Police releases clarification points on Delphi murder suspect

 

[MistyWaters]

I politely disagree. I think ISP Carter's emotions were involved. Remember he'd just told the same info to the families only moments before the PC started. I'm sure their reactions were upset and confused. Some of his language may have happened spontaneously because he was still bothered by those interactions with family. I believe his calling out of the killer was absolutely planned. IMO

I can understand why novice investigators assigned to a case might become emotionally involved from time to time, why they’re sometimes rotated, but Carter is the Superintendent of ISP, the entire State Police of Indiana. His role is far above any single unsolved murder case.

Indiana State Police - Wikipedia

At best he’s probably briefed of the Delphi investigation regularly. I can understand why he wants this case solved - that’s the role of ISP - but at his level, if he’s truly emotionally involved that’s not a good thing because police-work requires strong headed leadership and that doesn’t come from emotionally involved superintendents.

But as spokesperson it’s also his job to capture the interest of people otherwise they’d never get that one tip they need. It would be very difficult to do that without making an emotional plea, but there is a difference between that and one who’s become emotionally invested.

During most press conferences there’s usually reason to update the public about the victims, the crime scene, etc. In this case that’s long over. Introducing the new sketch took probably less than 5 minutes, maybe 2 minutes. Other than making a creative and dramatic chat directed to the killer, I can’t think of one other thing that could’ve added time given it was instructed questions from reporters wouldn’t be taken. But that chat turned the tables from anger and frustration over time wasted focusing on sketch #1 to “oh this is impressive progress, sketch #2 and Carter even knows who it is, he’s talking to him in code talk”, etc.

I’m sceptical and believe the chat with the killer was nothing more than a dramatic ploy to lengthen the PC that would’ve otherwise been over almost as soon as reporters walked in the door. JMO

 

[rosesfromangels]

I can understand why novice investigators assigned to a case might become emotionally involved from time to time, why they’re sometimes rotated, but Carter is the Superintendent of ISP, the entire State Police of Indiana. His role is far above any single unsolved murder case.

Indiana State Police - Wikipedia

At best he’s probably briefed of the Delphi investigation regularly. I can understand why he wants this case solved - that’s the role of ISP - but at his level, if he’s truly emotionally involved that’s not a good thing because police-work requires strong headed leadership and that doesn’t come from emotionally involved superintendents.

But as spokesperson it’s also his job to capture the interest of people otherwise they’d never get that one tip they need. It would be very difficult to do that without making an emotional plea, but there is a difference between that and one who’s become emotionally invested.

During most press conferences there’s usually reason to update the public about the victims, the crime scene, etc. In this case that’s long over. Introducing the new sketch took probably less than 5 minutes, maybe 2 minutes. Other than making a creative and dramatic chat directed to the killer, I can’t think of one other thing that could’ve added time given it was instructed questions from reporters wouldn’t be taken. But that chat turned the tables from anger and frustration over time wasted focusing on sketch #1 to “oh this is impressive progress, sketch #2 and Carter even knows who it is, he’s talking to him in code talk”, etc.

I’m sceptical and believe the chat with the killer was nothing more than a dramatic ploy to lengthen the PC that would’ve otherwise been over almost as soon as reporters walked in the door. JMO

It goes to show you that even the most hard boiled old cop has a heart. And for that, I am glad.

Justice for the 2Roses!

amateur opinion and speculation

 

[mom2four717]

Oh really? I hadn't heard that. At least not that I remember.

I think handcuffing or ziptie-ing the girls together would make controlling them possible

 

[BNA]

That presser by Doug Carter was the opposite of scripted. He developed cold feet at the last second and therefore rambled throughout the presentation while deciding what the heck he was going to say. There is evidence of that on both sides of the presser. That's why this is not a guess. We have the official press release that describes what Carter was supposed to say, "We have a witness. You made mistakes. " Then we have the clarification statement released a couple of days after the presser. Those sentences were posted recently in this thread, the ones saying the first sketch is no longer a person of interest.

That clarification statement was necessary solely because Doug Carter wobbled so badly and refused to commit to the younger sketch, even though that younger sketch was the centerpiece of the presser and had obviously been an ongoing project for months.

Imagine what the rest of the department was thinking when their spokesman was up there emotionally wandering all over the place, and omitting the key aspect, the entire reason they were there in the first place. The others did a good job patching things together. But the only thing anyone remembers is Doug Carter and The Shack.

I guarantee FBI officials were in disbelief that the local guy veered so weakly. And then the FBI guys have to read speculation that they were responsible for that fragile presentation. Yep, it reads exactly like something from the FBI. A swing and a miss is best interpreted as a swing and a miss, not as a clever ploy.

Which is why, imho, somebody should have been up there besides just Tobe….a prosecutor, a feeb, somebody.

Somebody who could clarify or correct or get it back on track while they were still live with the presser. IMO, not having planned for that contingency is a big, big problem...and I have never understood that.....a serious mistake.

 

[BNA]

It goes to show you that even the most hard boiled old cop has a heart. And for that, I am glad.

Justice for the 2Roses!

amateur opinion and speculation

Problem is this old saw: "Never get emotionally involved...……."

Because it could mean disaster to do so.

He's old enuff and experienced enuff to know that...and to mentor others with that old saying.

Something is very wrong.

 

[MistyWaters]

Problem is this old saw: "Never get emotionally involved...……."

Because it could mean disaster to do so.

He's old enuff and experienced enuff to know that...and to mentor others with that old saying.

Something is very wrong.

Considering Carter has achieved near-celebrity status as a result of this UNsolved case, maybe he’s thinking of entering politics in the future.

I do feel he’s overshadowing the loved ones of Abby and Libby, almost as if he’s taken on the public role of a grief stricken family member, or at least wants to be perceived as such, and yes I agree, that’s wrong. He needs to represent them so that justice will eventually be served, but he is not one of them.

 

[Charlot123]

Considering Carter has achieved near-celebrity status as a result of this UNsolved case, maybe he’s thinking of entering politics in the future.

I do feel he’s overshadowing the loved ones of Abby and Libby, almost as if he’s taken on the public role of a grief stricken family member, or at least wants to be perceived as such, and yes I agree, that’s wrong. He needs to represent them so that justice will eventually be served, but he is not one of them.

I know that Dave Reichert, who arrested the Green River Killer, eventually won the place in the Congress. Regardless of all mistakes done by the task group, after the arrest, he emerged victorious. He is good-looking, practical, a decent speaker, so enough people were voting for him, what with our blue state. People like winners.

But two huge unsolved cases (Delphi murders and Flora fires) are examples of inefficiency, not a winning streak.

As to the families, this lack of distance is unprofessional in general, and very confusing. It raises too many questions.

 

[MistyWaters]

I know that Dave Reichert, who arrested the Green River Killer, eventually won the place in the Congress. Regardless of all mistakes done by the task group, after the arrest, he emerged victorious. He is good-looking, practical, a decent speaker, so enough people were voting for him, what with our blue state. People like winners.

But two huge unsolved cases (Delphi murders and Flora fires) are examples of inefficiency, not a winning streak.

As to the families, this lack of distance is unprofessional in general, and very confusing. It raises too many questions.

Yes it’s all about name recognition I suppose and Carter certainly has made a lot of an effort to get his out there.

Even though I thought Jeff Ashton made an utterly meagre showing in an attempt to prosecute Casey Anthony, instead the jury was blamed, and he went on to defeat his boss and was elected State Attorney. I notice he’s now been elected as a Judge. So his failure to prosecute didn’t set his career back at all but he did become known.

In this case had there been an arrest, I imagine public attention would’ve already shifted from Carter to the Prosector or as you mention, an officer directly responsible for making an arrest. Just my observation, how ironic it is that because this Delphi case hasn’t been solved, the public fixation has still placed Carter in a sort of quasi-hero role.

 

[Ozoner]

Also, I always wonder if

- if only one girl were killed, would the case have become easier to solve, or more difficult?
- if the guy is the collector of weapons, and some of the things he used, or carried, are rare?
- if he quietly got rid from part of his collection, where would he do it? My choice would be, eBay, not Craigslist, but is it still traceable? EBay really cooperates with the vendors, and is vendor-driven, however, maybe in a major crime, they would?
- I think that arresting RL was a major mistake, as it gave a very wrong message to the locals, that if they go to LE with their suspicions, they could be implicated, too.
- however, it seems to me that the case is lacking witnesses, and this tells me that the motive was not sexual
- if the motive were purely sexual, people around, women, would be so scared, they’d overcome any others fears and work with LE
- as it is, they are not afraid for themselves. And why should they be? TL himself said it was limited to the individuals, or something like it.
- so it tells me that the motive was not sexual, that it might be known to some (or, people are guessing), and that they don't want to collaborate with the cops on one hand and are scared of consequences of being deemed "snitches", on the other.

logic
Your logic seems very flawed to me. The "people around" aren't privy to the details of the investigation and wouldn't know one way or the other what the motive was. Based on comments by LE about there being signatures, the most was almost certainly sexual, regardless of whether sexual assault actually occurred.

 

[California Sunset]

I wasn’t aware of a possible change of clothes under his coat. I think that’s just a theory? LE never said if they believe witnesses sighted the suspect in different clothing, that I can recall, and it’s often easier to identify a stranger by the clothing they wore, rather than recalling a face. Something such as a description of different clothing would also be important information for anyone who knows the suspect. IMO.

You may understand the reasoning behind my question if you read posts 1423 and #1442.

 

[MistyWaters]

You may understand the reasoning behind my question if you read posts 1423 and #1442.

Yes thank you. My apologies, I didn’t worded it well but I was jumping off in agreement with your post that I quoted.

 

[California Sunset]

I think the problem is that police in this case have their own opinion of the type of individual they are looking for and that is it. Even individuals within LE agencies investigating the same case sometimes have different opinions. It seems like the Abigail Williams and Liberty German investigation is localized to Indiana and, while it considers people outside the Delphi, Indiana area, that is not the primary focus.

Since I thought the Utah Lake missing person case could be related to the Delphi, Indiana and Evansdale, Iowa cases, I think there is a lesson to be learned here. If your investigation is so broad in scope, all you have are numerous possibilities that you may end up considering for years. However, if your investigation is very narrow in scope, you could be missing an important possibility in what looks to be an otherwise easy case to solve.

I believe when an investigation is broad in scope, you look for more information to narrow your focus. If your investigation is narrow, you're ruling out the possibility you are looking, or have found, the incorrect answer. If you'd like examples, I am able to supply hundreds.

 

[California Sunset]

Yes thank you. My apologies, I didn’t worded it well but I was jumping off in agreement with your post that I quoted.

I'm just irritated with myself. I'm sorry I opened that can of worms, because it led too many people astray. It isn't the first time I screwed up like that, either. There must be a better way of doing this, my apologies to all of you.