Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #123

[carbuff]

I think @Yemelyan has the best approach to solving this crime. As of 2017, Indiana had over 5000 untested rape kits. Would the DNA in any of those rape kits match what was found at the Abby/Libby crime scene......?
If so, we would have a live victim who could get us closer to the Perp.
I believe this is the best approach. Thank you again to Yemelyan for the game-changing info. I believe you are spot on.

New Indiana law allows survivors to track rape kits

Amateur opinion and speculation

Not to mention several thousand more in neighboring states, if he's not local.

If not this guy, some of those tests are going to match other perpetrators of other crimes and many other people, mostly women and girls, will have justice at last.

 

[JDough]

On the bridge, underneath the bridge. Wonder which one it actually was. If at all.

Your post borders on victim blaming to me ("if at all"), and I want to make sure I am not misunderstanding what you are saying. Please correct me if I am wrong. (I've definitely been wrong before)!

I have no reason whatsoever to believe there was not an encounter between Derek and FSG. And I believe that each of the videos posted above are basically saying the same thing: FSG did not see the girls on the bridge.

The "couple" (a man and a woman) in question have publicly indicated they were under the bridge arguing. It is also rumored that this man contributed to the first sketch of BG. It has been the topic of more than one conversation when we, collectively, were discussing who may have been a contributor to said sketch. The only information (that I am aware of) LE has released is that the sketch was drawn based on the witness statements/description from more than one person. A compilation of sorts.

I refuse to believe that Mike, Patty, or Derek are being less than truthful or trying to cover-up something nefarious by picking apart their words and insinuating an event may or may not have happened at all. LE has witness statements, phone records, employer records, and DNA samples for each of them, including FSG. Unless and until LE indicates one or all of them are being dishonest, I will continue to believe they are nothing more than victims of a heinous crime, and were not involved in Abby and Libby's murder.

 

[Charlot123]

I thought I would be off this case, but some new bits of information are measured against this case.

Here is what I have found out today.
- if someone starts smoking at 11, by 20 everyone hears it and his voice is much older than his age.
- raspy voice is one of the symptom of opiate addiction (I should have known this before, it is on the list of the symptoms)

People have discussed truck drivers as a possibility. Today, I thought of another potential job. A freight train cargo worker.

In 2009, 40% of US tonnage was carried by freight trains.

Here is the map. No trains going through Carroll county, but more to the south, there is a line.

And - I am horrible with geography of Midwest counties, but can anyone tell me if there is one running close to Evansdale?

Union Pacific Railroad Map - ACW Railway Company

My thinking was simple, who would want to visit Delphi without living, working, doing business or having relatives there?

Probably, someone interested in bridges. This is all. And it could well be a person working in the train system.

Why freight trains specifically? The voices get raspy sooner with that job. So a younger man could sound older.

 

[Thelastleg]

Your post borders on victim blaming to me ("if at all"), and I want to make sure I am not misunderstanding what you are saying. Please correct me if I am wrong. (I've definitely been wrong before)!

I have no reason whatsoever to believe there was not an encounter between Derek and FSG. And I believe that each of the videos posted above are basically saying the same thing: FSG did not see the girls on the bridge.

The "couple" (a man and a woman) in question have publicly indicated they were under the bridge arguing. It is also rumored that this man contributed to the first sketch of BG. It has been the topic of more than one conversation when we, collectively, were discussing who may have been a contributor to said sketch. The only information (that I am aware of) LE has released is that the sketch was drawn based on the witness statements/description from more than one person. A compilation of sorts.

I refuse to believe that Mike, Patty, or Derek are being less than truthful or trying to cover-up something nefarious by picking apart their words and insinuating an event may or may not have happened at all. LE has witness statements, phone records, employer records, and DNA samples for each of them, including FSG. Unless and until LE indicates one or all of them are being dishonest, I will continue to believe they are nothing more than victims of a heinous crime, and were not involved in Abby and Libby's murder.

Thank you for your interpretation of my post. Perhaps I should make myself clearer. I was referring solely to the different variations from verified interviews, videos etc on what FSG said to Derrick. One word can make a lot of difference as to where the girls were. I wasn't suggesting that FSG did not encounter Derrick. As you seem to be familiar with this case you will have realised by now that there are a lot of conflicting statements. I wasn't questioning the man from the couple contributing to the sketch, although as you say this is a rumour. I don't know how this is relevant to what I was saying. I was in no way trying to convince you that Mike, Patty or Derek were untruthful. I was pointing out that words matter. The only people who we know can be sure what happened that day are Abby, Libby and the Murderer.
I am most upset that you have accused me of Victim Blaming. However, in all murders, not everyone tells the truth and it is wise to keep an open mind. Once again I am not referring to family. This appeared in the Daily Mail yesterday. There is no guarantee that people cleared of wrongdoing at the time are necessarily innocent.

'Babes in the Wood' murderer Russell Bishop's ex appears in court charged with perjury over 'false alibi' she gave in 1987 trial that saw him acquitted 31 years before he finally faced justice

• Jenny Johnson, 54, appeared before magistrates in Brighton earlier today
• She had been dating Babes in the Wood killer Russel Bishop in the 1980s
• Bishop had been tried in 1987 for murdering two nine year old girls
• Johnson is accused of perjury during Bishop's original trial in 1987

By Jaya Narain for MailOnline

Published

 

[Tiger Stripes]

I still have hope it will be concluded with arrests. I have to have faith that LE knows what is needed to bring the guilty to arrest and more importantly, prosecution and conviction. This includes those covering up for the killer(s), the ones staying silent, taking chances with other's lives. There will be justice. AJMO

BBM

Love your hopefulness, @sunshineray! I, too, share that same hope! And especially continue to fervently hope and pray that those covering up *and* staying silent (which still make *them* an accessory to the crime, JMOO) would reveal what they know. Enough, already!

 

[Michigan]

“We think we were on to something early on” (paraphrasing)....I believe whoever was the subject of the search warrant very early on in the case on bicycle road has been cleared by LE. Any chance there are new leads regarding this? Or is it a dead end?

MOO, IMO

 

[JDough]

Thank you for your interpretation of my post. Perhaps I should make myself clearer. I was referring solely to the different variations from verified interviews, videos etc on what FSG said to Derrick. One word can make a lot of difference as to where the girls were. I wasn't suggesting that FSG did not encounter Derrick. As you seem to be familiar with this case you will have realised by now that there are a lot of conflicting statements. I wasn't questioning the man from the couple contributing to the sketch, although as you say this is a rumour. I don't know how this is relevant to what I was saying. I was in no way trying to convince you that Mike, Patty or Derek were untruthful. I was pointing out that words matter. The only people who we know can be sure what happened that day are Abby, Libby and the Murderer.
I am most upset that you have accused me of Victim Blaming. However, in all murders, not everyone tells the truth and it is wise to keep an open mind. Once again I am not referring to family. This appeared in the Daily Mail yesterday. There is no guarantee that people cleared of wrongdoing at the time are necessarily innocent.

'Babes in the Wood' murderer Russell Bishop's ex appears in court charged with perjury over 'false alibi' she gave in 1987 trial that saw him acquitted 31 years before he finally faced justice

• Jenny Johnson, 54, appeared before magistrates in Brighton earlier today
• She had been dating Babes in the Wood killer Russel Bishop in the 1980s
• Bishop had been tried in 1987 for murdering two nine year old girls
• Johnson is accused of perjury during Bishop's original trial in 1987

By Jaya Narain for MailOnline

Published

Thank you for your response. Forgive me for misinterpreting what you were trying to relay. This is the reason I asked for clarification, and I'm glad you responded.

I know (from my own personal experience) that many people choose to provide false or conflicting statements to LE. Unfortunately, in this case, neither Derek or FSG have provided public statements regarding their brief conversation on the day the girls went missing. While I agree that words can make a difference in determining where the girls may have been last seen, I also know that Derek searched on the bridge, under the bridge, and on the accessible trails within the park. I mentioned the couple arguing under the bridge, because this (in my mind) eliminated Abby and Libby from being in that location. I assume FSG may have said he witnessed two teenage girls under the bridge, not a couple- could be wrong about that. Again, it's just an assumption. However; I am most happy to know that Derek provided a statement to LE that evening, when the memories of the conversation and the actions of both himself and FSG were fresh in his mind.

I, too, believe the reason BG has not been arrested is because someone is being dishonest. This happens far too often in far too many cases. The article you posted is (one of many) examples of this happening. Whether the person with knowledge of this crime is providing a false alibi, recognizing who is on the video Libby recorded and not disclosing, found bloody clothes matching the description of BG hidden, found items belonging to the girls in BG's possession, had BG confess to them, or are fearful of their personal safety for some reason. I guess it could be for many different reasons- but ultimately someone is lying on purpose, or by omitting information. Whatever the reason, I can only hope they will gain the courage to reveal what they know. Sooner rather than later. That's all any of us here want; justice for Abby & Libby.

 

[crhedBngr]

Thank you for your response. Forgive me for misinterpreting what you were trying to relay. This is the reason I asked for clarification, and I'm glad you responded.

<RSABBMFF>

I, too, believe the reason BG has not been arrested is because someone is being dishonest. This happens far too often in far too many cases. The article you posted is (one of many) examples of this happening. Whether the person with knowledge of this crime is providing a false alibi, recognizing who is on the video Libby recorded and not disclosing, found bloody clothes matching the description of BG hidden, found items belonging to the girls in BG's possession, had BG confess to them, or are fearful of their personal safety for some reason. I guess it could be for many different reasons- but ultimately someone is lying on purpose, or by omitting information. Whatever the reason, I can only hope they will gain the courage to reveal what they know. Sooner rather than later. That's all any of us here want; justice for Abby & Libby.

RBBM

This^^^^

I think someone is protecting BG, and will not turn him in.

However, things can change, and BG will be caught.

JMVHO.

 

[minazoe]

it must very hard for a mother, or wife to turn in a felon. I imagine denial is huge factor.

not wanting to believe something can take the mind to many places. mOO

 

[rosesfromangels]

it must very hard for a mother, or wife to turn in a felon. I imagine denial is huge factor.

not wanting to believe something can take the mind to many places. mOO

I'm sure there are many other factors as well - shame, economics, and the overall devastation to the family. Yet, how could they stay silent knowing this type of evil miscreant is highly likely to strike again?

Since Yemelyan posted the info about all the rape kits collecting dust, I am obsessed and convinced that solving this crime can likely be found in one of those kits collecting cobwebs.

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[somequestions]

I'm sure there are many other factors as well - shame, economics, and the overall devastation to the family. Yet, how could they stay silent knowing this type of evil miscreant is highly likely to strike again?

Since Yemelyan posted the info about all the rape kits collecting dust, I am obsessed and convinced that solving this crime can likely be found in one of those kits collecting cobwebs.

Amateur opinion and speculation

In such a high profile case wouldn't police have considered trying to link this case with another case? This way they could go and talk to the victim in the other case and see if their witness statement matches up with any of the witness statements from the Monon High Bridge trail area on the day of the crime.

I think police silence in this case is based not on knowing who killed Abigail Williams and Liberty German, but on not knowing at all who killed Abigail Williams and Liberty German. I think the police investigation in this case is at a standstill and will probably remain that way until either the investigators either A. Get a phone call/email tip in the future from the right person or B. Find the tip in the thousands they have already received that leads to this case being solved.

 

[Trebor5591]

I am surprised that DNA has not linked anyone yet. So many of us think it's a local person. And they have asked locals for DNA. I can't imagine that anyone would refuse. I'd love to see the list of people who have not submitted DNA and do not have any family members who have done so. I bet it's a short list.

I bet the list of people who have not submitted DNA is a lot longer than you think. I can not think of anything I would rather the government or LEO not have than my DNA. And I have never done anything wrong where my DNA would be of interest to anyone. Its just a bad idea, because I don't feel the government is always trustworthy or acting in my best interest.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

I'm sure there are many other factors as well - shame, economics, and the overall devastation to the family. Yet, how could they stay silent knowing this type of evil miscreant is highly likely to strike again?

Since Yemelyan posted the info about all the rape kits collecting dust, I am obsessed and convinced that solving this crime can likely be found in one of those kits collecting cobwebs.

Amateur opinion and speculation

I’m probably wrong here but I don’t recall LE ever saying they have the perpetrator’s DNA. They have talked up and down, and sideways, and all around about DNA. They have, in my opinion, gone out of their way to avoid talking about DNA. They certainly said they have DNA from the crime scene but that could be the victim’s, family’s, friend’s, searcher’s, random people. Probably all touch DNA which is pretty useless. Could be from someone they brushed up against at the grocery store. I’m sure they have DNA that is unidentified. Is it the killer’s. I don’t know. I don’t think they know. They’ve gotten swabs from people, but what are they comparing it to? I just can’t think that the DNA is worth anything to the prosecution of this case. I think it is more of a hope than a fact.
I also think that if LE had useable, important, undeniably the killer’s DNA they would have already been processing those rape kits. They could find the money. Surely the FBI has deep pockets. Plus they would be helping other cases too, not just this one.
I, like a said, probably stand alone on this, but I don’t think the DNA is worth much in this case. Just my opinion.

 

[Yemelyan]

In such a high profile case wouldn't police have considered trying to link this case with another case? This way they could go and talk to the victim in the other case and see if their witness statement matches up with any of the witness statements from the Monon High Bridge trail area on the day of the crime.

I think when I, and most of the people on these boards, hear about the details of a crime we start trying to make connections in our mind because that's human nature. Oh, two girls disappear on a trail and then we found out they were killed? Well, that sounds just like the Evansville murders. And then we start going in pursuit of linkages, using, let's face it, what's in most cases only limited information known to the public. IMO that's not how LE actually goes about investigating cases (if I'm wrong, hopefully a verified LE will chime in). They don't take a theory like, BG is a killer who always targets two pre-teen girls, and then go poring over other cases trying to make the evidence fit. Instead I think they let the evidence lead them outwards, perhaps to cases that on the surface do not seem similar at all when it comes to victim choice or MO.

And one of the things I think LE may look at in a case like Delphi is what Robert Ives called signatures, or personation. Why did the killer select the victim(s) he did and was there anything about the crime scene that was unique to the killer's psychological reason for committing the crime. What things did he do that were totally external to the act of killing, but that were part of his fantasy? Keeping in mind that killers are known to experiment with signatures as they learn and evolve. It's never going to be as simple as "he strangles all his victims," for example. It's going to be something very specific that speaks directly to the killer's urges. If there are two or three signatures as Robert Ives said, they may lead LE outward to cases that we here at Websleuths have never thought of or considered as similar.

 

[somequestions]

I think when I, and most of the people on these boards, hear about the details of a crime we start trying to make connections in our mind because that's human nature. Oh, two girls disappear on a trail and then we found out they were killed? Well, that sounds just like the Evansville murders. And then we start going in pursuit of linkages, using, let's face it, what's in most cases only limited information known to the public. IMO that's not how LE actually goes about investigating cases (if I'm wrong, hopefully a verified LE will chime in). They don't take a theory like, BG is a killer who always targets two pre-teen girls, and then go poring over other cases trying to make the evidence fit. Instead I think they let the evidence lead them outwards, perhaps to cases that on the surface do not seem similar at all when it comes to victim choice or MO.

And one of the things I think LE may look at in a case like Delphi is what Robert Ives called signatures, or personation. Why did the killer select the victim(s) he did and was there anything about the crime scene that was unique to the killer's psychological reason for committing the crime. What things did he do that were totally external to the act of killing, but that were part of his fantasy? Keeping in mind that killers are known to experiment with signatures as they learn and evolve. It's never going to be as simple as "he strangles all his victims," for example. It's going to be something very specific that speaks directly to the killer's urges. If there are two or three signatures as Robert Ives said, they may lead LE outward to cases that we here at Websleuths have never thought of or considered as similar.

I cannot speak for how LE investigates a case. Someone who is verified LE I agree would be best to explain, but here is my opinion.

I think it is important to look for linkages in cases even if after looking at the evidence in both the Delphi and Evansdale cases and coming to the conclusion that you cannot make a conclusion that they are related. The problem with so many theories is that when a theory cannot be proved or disproved it becomes a possibility. Then you end up having theories about possible family member involvement, etc, that has absolutely no evidence behind it.

The irony of the case of Abigail Williams and Liberty German is that this case shows that the evidence can only lead you so far even when you have audio/video, possible signatures, and forensic evidence at the crime scene. The rest is subjective based on the direction of the investigation because it is not just the evidence that matters. It is how it is viewed through the eyes of human beings. Like a blurry camera video, it is left up to our interpretation.

 

[JnRyan]

why are you on the fence? what about this case makes you think this guys is a beginner?

he pulled off a double murder in broad daylight in an open area.

I dunno..I think he's a switch hitter and did some other murders that don't look like this one
enough to draw a line.

or is it because you think he's local and there are no unsolved murders of women or children in Delphi?

mOO

While we have video, audio and sketches, we really have very little else to go on. Sure, LE has more, but we don't know a lot of things here like how did the crime scene look, cause and manner of death and possible DNA. I have a hard time believing this is his first murder due to how he was able to pull this off in the middle of the day when the weather was very nice for that time of year. And yet it appears LE has not been able to link another crime to this one. We've all seen LE take a trip out to CO about Daniel Nations and then request DNA/autopsy results on Paul Etter. Those two cases lead me to believe LE is grasping at straws trying to find a related crime. Of course, he could have murdered before but the victim was entirely different like a runaway teenager or an adult woman he abducted from a parking lot, for example. If he killed before his victim or victims may be listed as missing by LE - i.e., LE has no cause or manner of death or even the circumstances of the crime - and a murder is not strongly suspected by LE. In fact, this guy could have gotten away for this long because he planned this very well or he just got VERY lucky. I can see different scenarios and theories being possible here.

 

[Yemelyan]

I cannot speak for how LE investigates a case. Someone who is verified LE I agree would be best to explain, but here is my opinion.

I think it is important to look for linkages in cases even if after looking at the evidence in both the Delphi and Evansdale cases and coming to the conclusion that you cannot make a conclusion that they are related. The problem with so many theories is that when a theory cannot be proved or disproved it becomes a possibility. Then you end up having theories about possible family member involvement, etc, that has absolutely no evidence behind it.

The irony of the case of Abigail Williams and Liberty German is that this case shows that the evidence can only lead you so far even when you have audio/video, possible signatures, and forensic evidence at the crime scene. The rest is subjective based on the direction of the investigation because it is not just the evidence that matters. It is how it is viewed through the eyes of human beings. Like a blurry camera video, it is left up to our interpretation.

With the evidence WE the public have, yes, linkages like that are all we have to think about. For LE who know all the evidence available from the crime scene, they work through the actual evidence quite differently IMO.

@somequestions, weren't you active in the Holly Piiranen thread way back when? I think there was a verified LE poster on that thread who gave a lot of great info about how they investigate a case like this.

 

[somequestions]

With the evidence WE the public have, yes, linkages like that are all we have to think about. For LE who know all the evidence available from the crime scene, they work through the actual evidence quite differently IMO.

@somequestions, weren't you active in the Holly Piiranen thread way back when? I think there was a verified LE poster on that thread who gave a lot of great info about how they investigate a case like this.

I was much more active in the Molly Bish thread than the Holly Piirainen thread. Both cases have been thought to be possibly connected because of how close the areas were to each other. Holly Piirainen's case happened in August 1993 and Molly Bish in June 2000. I was not active in the threads until over 15 years had passed in the Molly Bish case if that can be considered "back then".

I think the verified LE you are referring to is the profiler who helped investigate Molly Bish's case. He worked with an ex-detective who had been working very closely on the Holly Piirainen case. Both of them had to consider the possibility that the cases were linked. The profiler gave his opinion of the cases on both threads I think and talked about what LE would look for.

As for any actual hard evidence that the cases of Molly Bish and Holly Piirainen were linked, there really is none. So I think the only conclusion that you can come to is that maybe they are and maybe they are not linked. Until both cases are solved or more information comes to light that is about the only conclusion you can make.

 

[tresir2012]

“We think we were on to something early on” (paraphrasing)....I believe whoever was the subject of the search warrant very early on in the case on bicycle road has been cleared by LE. Any chance there are new leads regarding this? Or is it a dead end?

MOO, IMO

Early on was also the search at RL's property.

 

[Yemelyan]

I was much more active in the Molly Bish thread than the Holly Piirainen thread. Both cases have been thought to be possibly connected because of how close the areas were to each other. Holly Piirainen's case happened in August 1993 and Molly Bish in June 2000. I was not active in the threads until over 15 years had passed in the Molly Bish case if that can be considered "back then".

I think the verified LE you are referring to is the profiler who helped investigate Molly Bish's case. He worked with an ex-detective who had been working very closely on the Holly Piirainen case. Both of them had to consider the possibility that the cases were linked. The profiler gave his opinion of the cases on both threads I think and talked about what LE would look for.

As for any actual hard evidence that the cases of Molly Bish and Holly Piirainen were linked, there really is none. So I think the only conclusion that you can come to is that maybe they are and maybe they are not linked. Until both cases are solved or more information comes to light that is about the only conclusion you can make.

I think you and I are talking at cross purposes. I'm not saying investigators never look to see if cases are linked or that any two particular cases are or are not linked. I'm saying the method of how investigators do that is very different than how you or I might think about it, because of the information LE has that we do not. Specifcally, information about the crime scene itself. The verified LE poster in the Holly Piiranen thread gave examples of exactly what LE look for. That's what I'd hoped you got out of my comment, not any type of judgment on whether or not that particular case is linked to any other.

I'll give you another example. In and around the north shore of MA, a number of women have gone missing in the last five or so years. A couple of them likely committed suicide, one apparently ended up in the water while intoxicated, some overdosed. And for at least one, the police won't say what their theory is. If you read about the threads for these women on here, you will find many posters insisting these cases "must be" linked because they are all white women of a certain age. Posters are outraged that police aren't doing more to investigate the disappearances/deaths as the work of one killer. However, to my view the police aren't just bumbling around failing to make connections that are obvious to posters on Websleuths. They know things about these disappearances that have not been made public. They don't say "these are all white women in their fifties, let's go out and make this evidence fit until we find one likely guy."

So to bring this back to Delphi, the question was posted "why don't police try to link this?" My point: they may HAVE, it's just that the criteria they looked at may be really different than what we think (since we know very little after all). If they ever do announce BG is linked to other crimes I would not be surprised at all if they are very different in victim selection, etc. What may be the same were the signatures (if Robert Ives was using that term like a profiler would). And we, the concerned public, don't know what those were.