Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #125

[JnRyan]

I know ISP Superintendent Carter has said a sketch is not photograph and that the person LE is looking for might look somewhere 'in between' the two sketches. But the first sketch is drawn with the suspect wearing a hat and a goatee and the second is the suspect without a hat and clean shaven. Those different sets of characteristics seem to indicate two entirely different individuals.

I don't know why, because the photo from Liberty's video is very blurry, but I always thought the first sketch looked more like the guy in the video.

 

[Charlot123]

Perhaps dilated pupils might have been the reason, that the eye color wasn't recognizable like it usual would have been? - We talked already about drugs and/or alcohol, BG might have consumed, ie. re his gait on MHB.

What Drugs Cause Dilated Pupils? | NVISION Eye Centers
Both prescription medications and intoxicating, recreational drugs can cause your pupils to dilate. If you take a prescription that might change how your eyes look or how sensitive to light they are because your pupils dilate as a side effect, your doctor will warn you. People who abuse drugs for nonmedical reasons may not expect their pupils to dilate, but it can be a sign that they are intoxicated.

We don’t know whom the witnesses actually saw. I can only say that one of them provided the description that allegedly fit the one of the man on the bridge. But I am now seriously questioning the time slot.

I’d widen the time. If nothing pans out from 12-5, make it 10-7. Maybe more interesting things could be noticed.

 

[Charlot123]

Perhaps dilated pupils might have been the reason, that the eye color wasn't recognizable like it usual would have been? - We talked already about drugs and/or alcohol, BG might have consumed, ie. re his gait on MHB.

What Drugs Cause Dilated Pupils? | NVISION Eye Centers
Both prescription medications and intoxicating, recreational drugs can cause your pupils to dilate. If you take a prescription that might change how your eyes look or how sensitive to light they are because your pupils dilate as a side effect, your doctor will warn you. People who abuse drugs for nonmedical reasons may not expect their pupils to dilate, but it can be a sign that they are intoxicated.

We don’t know whom the witnesses actually saw. I can only say that one of them provided the description that allegedly fit the one of the man on the bridge. But I am now seriously questioning the time slot.

I’d widen the time. If nothing pans out from 12-5, make it 10-7. Maybe more interesting things could be noticed.

Perhaps dilated pupils might have been the reason, that the eye color wasn't recognizable like it usual would have been? - We talked already about drugs and/or alcohol, BG might have consumed, ie. re his gait on MHB.

What Drugs Cause Dilated Pupils? | NVISION Eye Centers
Both prescription medications and intoxicating, recreational drugs can cause your pupils to dilate. If you take a prescription that might change how your eyes look or how sensitive to light they are because your pupils dilate as a side effect, your doctor will warn you. People who abuse drugs for nonmedical reasons may not expect their pupils to dilate, but it can be a sign that they are intoxicated.

Only they were not that dilated. Did you have the experience of atropine in eyes for eye exams? Try walking after that, much less on a shaky bridge.

I think that either he wore tinted lenses, or simply had green/hazel eyes that are difficult to describe.

 

[Charlot123]

DBM. Sorry, I don’t know why it reposts and posts twice

 

[Kimmer]

As the mother of a murdered child, I think I may have a different point of view?

I fully believe the case is stalled, not cold. I just haven't (quite) joined the ranks of this being a cold case. Here's why:

• A cold case is an unsolved criminal investigation which remains open pending the discovery of new evidence. (Meaning they are no longer receiving tips, and have investigated every possible piece of evidence collected without the ability to move forward, make an arrest, or solve the case).
• I don't believe investigators are no longer receiving tips. I believe they have not received the tip needed to make an arrest. The one that places their POI(s) at the crime scene.
• IMO, Investigators have a very short list of suspects (possibly with only one or two names).
• There (again, IMO) are many things going on behind the scene that we, the public, are unaware of.
• I would not be surprised if there is yet another group of specialists/professionals going back to the beginning and reviewing both the criminal investigation (i.e.; crime scene, the contents of Libby's phone, photo/video enhancements, early witness interviews, DNA collected both at the crime scene, and from individuals who provided a sample, etc.), and the large number of tips.
• Despite the back-and-forth statements regarding DNA, I believe there was some found at the scene. And, I believe this DNA belongs to BG. My best guess (at this point), is that this DNA can be explained away for some reason.
• Investigators working on the case have contacted numerous high-profile specialists that have indicated this case can be solved. It will just be an uphill battle. (Thus the reason that after three years the case remains "unsolved").
• Someone knows who did this. They, for whatever reason (fear, uncertainty, the possibility of being arrested for withholding information), have not contacted authorities.

This may be an unpopular opinion, but I still have hope the case is being worked on a daily basis, that there will be an arrest, the case will prosecuted, and the person(s) responsible will be held accountable.

I would like to offer my condolences on losing your child, I do know how you feel as i am also part of the club no parent wants to be in as i lost my only child Jan 2017. if you ever need someone to talk to or just cry with feel free to pm me i have to shoulders that work good. take care.

 

[Cryptic]

Speaking of farming knowledge, there has also been a lot of talk of the possibility of livestock transporters.

Another good idea!

Though no transporter truck was spotted parked strangely that day, a livestock truck driver would spend alot of time in the area. Likewise, working in agriculture, could have an outdoor interest in the hiking trails, and hunting / fishing possibilities offered by the nature center. Such an individual could develop local familiarity while at work, then return to the area on his day off.

Other rural / farm possibilities with local familiarity, but who live out of the area could include farm equipment mechanics making "barn calls" for repairs, butchers (small scale beef or pork slaughtering can involve the butcher going to the farm, then processing the animal on site), irrigation sprinkler maintenance / set up companies and crop duster pilots or ground guides.

With any of the above possibilities, local farm / livestock knowledge would be crucial in determining what kinds of companies tend to service the area, then start to identify which companies do work in the area and who their employees are.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

As the mother of a murdered child, I think I may have a different point of view?

I fully believe the case is stalled, not cold. I just haven't (quite) joined the ranks of this being a cold case. Here's why:

• A cold case is an unsolved criminal investigation which remains open pending the discovery of new evidence. (Meaning they are no longer receiving tips, and have investigated every possible piece of evidence collected without the ability to move forward, make an arrest, or solve the case).
• I don't believe investigators are no longer receiving tips. I believe they have not received the tip needed to make an arrest. The one that places their POI(s) at the crime scene.
• IMO, Investigators have a very short list of suspects (possibly with only one or two names).
• There (again, IMO) are many things going on behind the scene that we, the public, are unaware of.
• I would not be surprised if there is yet another group of specialists/professionals going back to the beginning and reviewing both the criminal investigation (i.e.; crime scene, the contents of Libby's phone, photo/video enhancements, early witness interviews, DNA collected both at the crime scene, and from individuals who provided a sample, etc.), and the large number of tips.
• Despite the back-and-forth statements regarding DNA, I believe there was some found at the scene. And, I believe this DNA belongs to BG. My best guess (at this point), is that this DNA can be explained away for some reason.
• Investigators working on the case have contacted numerous high-profile specialists that have indicated this case can be solved. It will just be an uphill battle. (Thus the reason that after three years the case remains "unsolved").
• Someone knows who did this. They, for whatever reason (fear, uncertainty, the possibility of being arrested for withholding information), have not contacted authorities.

This may be an unpopular opinion, but I still have hope the case is being worked on a daily basis, that there will be an arrest, the case will prosecuted, and the person(s) responsible will be held accountable.

I think you found the correct word to describe this case right now...”stalled”. I will change my vote to not a cold case but a stalled case. That fits better I think.
Also, so very sorry for your loss. I cannot imagine the pain.

 

[JDough]

I would like to offer my condolences on losing your child, I do know how you feel as i am also part of the club no parent wants to be in as i lost my only child Jan 2017. if you ever need someone to talk to or just cry with feel free to pm me i have to shoulders that work good. take care.

Thank you; and right back at ya!

I have no desire to derail the thread, but I would like to say a few words about what the families of Abby and Libby are experiencing; well, because I know (and some of you may too). Despite the fact my case began over 20 years ago, the thoughts, feelings and emotions remain the same. There are absolutely days of hopelessness. Overwhelming sadness, depression, anxiety, sleepless nights, anger, rage, fear, and so many, many more emotions that we experience on a daily basis. And yet, we members of this club we never wanted to be a part of always, always, always come back to believing justice will be served. We can't imagine that this won't happen- it keeps us sane in our moments of desperation.

The fear of wondering who this person is and why he hasn't been arrested is all-consuming at times. What if he wants to take another member of your family away from you? What if it is a family member? What important clue may I be missing, or have forgotten? Do I see and talk to this person? Does he know me personally and watch me suffer? And most importantly: WHY, WHY, WHY?

I know, without a doubt the families are very confused with the changes in the investigation. You can read and hear their reactions in the many personal interviews they have given. And yet, they still have hope the case will be solved. They still have a steadfast faith in the investigators- not an easy task. In honor of Abby and Libby, and in support of the family- I WILL NOT GIVE UP in believing right along with them. If they are reading here now, I want them to know how much the individuals in this thread will keep searching for answers. We'll keep watching for clues, we'll keep sharing their poster seeking tips, and most of all, we'll keep caring. We will continue to come back to this thread over and over again until justice is served. We will stand right beside you (even if it can't be in person).

Your time is coming, BG. Be prepared- someone is going to get the courage to come forward. And your life as you know it will be over. It's truly a shame you aren't man enough to turn yourself in. I guess DC may have been wrong about you having a smidgen of conscience left.

 

[rosesfromangels]

Thank you; and right back at ya!

I have no desire to derail the thread, but I would like to say a few words about what the families of Abby and Libby are experiencing; well, because I know (and some of you may too). Despite the fact my case began over 20 years ago, the thoughts, feelings and emotions remain the same. There are absolutely days of hopelessness. Overwhelming sadness, depression, anxiety, sleepless nights, anger, rage, fear, and so many, many more emotions that we experience on a daily basis. And yet, we members of this club we never wanted to be a part of always, always, always come back to believing justice will be served. We can't imagine that this won't happen- it keeps us sane in our moments of desperation.

The fear of wondering who this person is and why he hasn't been arrested is all-consuming at times. What if he wants to take another member of your family away from you? What if it is a family member? What important clue may I be missing, or have forgotten? Do I see and talk to this person? Does he know me personally and watch me suffer? And most importantly: WHY, WHY, WHY?

I know, without a doubt the families are very confused with the changes in the investigation. You can read and hear their reactions in the many personal interviews they have given. And yet, they still have hope the case will be solved. They still have a steadfast faith in the investigators- not an easy task. In honor of Abby and Libby, and in support of the family- I WILL NOT GIVE UP in believing right along with them. If they are reading here now, I want them to know how much the individuals in this thread will keep searching for answers. We'll keep watching for clues, we'll keep sharing their poster seeking tips, and most of all, we'll keep caring. We will continue to come back to this thread over and over again until justice is served. We will stand right beside you (even if it can't be in person).

Your time is coming, BG. Be prepared- someone is going to get the courage to come forward. And your life as you know it will be over. It's truly a shame you aren't man enough to turn yourself in. I guess DC may have been wrong about you having a smidgen of conscience left.

In the ten+ years I have participated on WS, this is the most powerful post I have ever read, and I’m humbled to have read it. Count me in on your “believers” club.
God Bless You.

Roses

 

[JDough]

We don’t know whom the witnesses actually saw. I can only say that one of them provided the description that allegedly fit the one of the man on the bridge. But I am now seriously questioning the time slot.

I’d widen the time. If nothing pans out from 12-5, make it 10-7. Maybe more interesting things could be noticed.

This is such an interesting thought, Charlot. Widening the time frame. I have often wondered if the perpetrator hung around the area to watch the reactions of others (not necessarily at the crime scene)? I can't imagine him having the gonads to participate in searches- I'd like to believe he got the hell away from the crime scene as quickly as possible. It just seems too sick and twisted to think otherwise.

Who was absent from the searches? Perhaps someone that would be expected to be there? What was going on elsewhere (in town, a few miles away, etc.)? The extended time frame would allow the perpetrator to be participating in something that should have been reported (walking with bloody clothing, disposing of something in a trash bin/dumpster, throwing something out of their vehicle, etc.). If all (or the majority of) LEO's, emergency personnel, etc.) were at the bridge...... he may have been just smart enough to take advantage of this extended timeframe. Or stupid enough to hang around.

 

[rosesfromangels]

This is such an interesting thought, Charlot. Widening the time frame. I have often wondered if the perpetrator hung around the area to watch the reactions of others (not necessarily at the crime scene)? I can't imagine him having the gonads to participate in searches- I'd like to believe he got the hell away from the crime scene as quickly as possible. It just seems too sick and twisted to think otherwise.

Who was absent from the searches? Perhaps someone that would be expected to be there? What was going on elsewhere (in town, a few miles away, etc.)? The extended time frame would allow the perpetrator to be participating in something that should have been reported (walking with bloody clothing, disposing of something in a trash bin/dumpster, throwing something out of their vehicle, etc.). If all (or the majority of) LEO's, emergency personnel, etc.) were at the bridge...... he may have been just smart enough to take advantage of this extended timeframe. Or stupid enough to hang around.

Let’s reflect on my hypothesis of his malfunctioning frontal lobe. He may have a flat affect, which would come off as calm. His voice had a flat affect in the now notorious “down the hill” instruction.
Normal functioning people may try to apply normal functioning to the Perp, expecting him to have been acting nervous, twitchy, jumpy. I suggest quite the opposite. He would have appeared with his normal flat affect; maybe a bit more alert than usual, or feigning concern, but otherwise the same.

I really think he had a “changing station” nearby, and probably at the unoccupied property, or similar in proximity.

amateur opinion and speculation

 

[ReadySet]

Maybe you're right...Or, we only know a fraction of what LE knows. They don't need "the public's" help. They need someone who actually knows the murderer to speak up.

Been following this case since the beginning. Haven't posted in a while. I still read along, but kinda gave up. I think a lot of people did. But only because of the ridiculous amount of inconsistencies. I can't think of much, if anything, that's absolutely known. I feel so badly for the families. There will be no justice until LE get the miniscule amount of facts they will release in order. It's a tragedy. I have no doubt each individual LE want this case to be solved. I just think they have such wildly varying opinions that there is no consensus. The result is the shameful level of professionalism we have seen so far. As you stated above, they desperately need to be *extremely* clear on what the facts are. They need to stop pretending that this will be solved as it sits now. They need the public's help. I wish someone would send your list to whomever is in charge. This really needs to be done.

 

[somequestions]

I think LE took a statistical approach with this case. Even if you are a terrible basketball player, if you shoot enough times you will eventually make a basket.

The two sketches, in my opinion, are nothing more than guesses based on people that were probably out on the Delphi Monon High Bridge trail that day that have yet to be identified. Realizing they might be chasing an unknown, LE decided to put out the first sketch to start to generate leads that might lead to finding that person. When that did not work, they released the second sketch based on a decent theory that the killer would most likely need transportation to get away from the immediate area. I think the sketches, especially the second one, were a response to realizing that the case was starting to fade from people's memory.

Now they have over 50,000 tips to show for it. It is possible the right tip is in those 50,000, but I wonder whether the right tip will actually be based on the press conferences and sketches or if it will be based on the video from Liberty German's phone?

Whatever happened to Abigail Williams and Liberty German that day, it must have touched them emotionally. I understand, but in order to solve the case I think they need to remain focused on the evidence.

 

[SMK777]

Let’s reflect on my hypothesis of his malfunctioning frontal lobe. He may have a flat affect, which would come off as calm. His voice had a flat affect in the now notorious “down the hill” instruction.
Normal functioning people may try to apply normal functioning to the Perp, expecting him to have been acting nervous, twitchy, jumpy. I suggest quite the opposite.

I think maybe you hit the nail on the head.

 

[ReadySet]

I referenced a case in my locale a while back (Daralyn Johnson) that we (the public) were sure was a cold case, knew was a cold case. We had heard nothing about it for years. Suddenly in May, it was solved! Unbeknownst to the public, LE had been working on it consistently. It was not cold. We were wrong.

We all know LE is still, in some capacity, rummaging around trying to solve this case we all care so much about.
I was just wondering how many of us, the tried and true, think, for all intents and purposes, this is a cold case now. Not what you hope, not what you wish, but what you actually think.
Maybe we can get a head count.
I sadly think it is a cold case. Something major will have to happen to energize it.

 

[ReadySet]

I believe you are absolutely right. Great post.

As the mother of a murdered child, I think I may have a different point of view?

I fully believe the case is stalled, not cold. I just haven't (quite) joined the ranks of this being a cold case. Here's why:

• A cold case is an unsolved criminal investigation which remains open pending the discovery of new evidence. (Meaning they are no longer receiving tips, and have investigated every possible piece of evidence collected without the ability to move forward, make an arrest, or solve the case).
• I don't believe investigators are no longer receiving tips. I believe they have not received the tip needed to make an arrest. The one that places their POI(s) at the crime scene.
• IMO, Investigators have a very short list of suspects (possibly with only one or two names).
• There (again, IMO) are many things going on behind the scene that we, the public, are unaware of.
• I would not be surprised if there is yet another group of specialists/professionals going back to the beginning and reviewing both the criminal investigation (i.e.; crime scene, the contents of Libby's phone, photo/video enhancements, early witness interviews, DNA collected both at the crime scene, and from individuals who provided a sample, etc.), and the large number of tips.
• Despite the back-and-forth statements regarding DNA, I believe there was some found at the scene. And, I believe this DNA belongs to BG. My best guess (at this point), is that this DNA can be explained away for some reason.
• Investigators working on the case have contacted numerous high-profile specialists that have indicated this case can be solved. It will just be an uphill battle. (Thus the reason that after three years the case remains "unsolved").
• Someone knows who did this. They, for whatever reason (fear, uncertainty, the possibility of being arrested for withholding information), have not contacted authorities.

This may be an unpopular opinion, but I still have hope the case is being worked on a daily basis, that there will be an arrest, the case will prosecuted, and the person(s) responsible will be held accountable.

 

[Charlot123]

As the mother of a murdered child, I think I may have a different point of view?

I fully believe the case is stalled, not cold. I just haven't (quite) joined the ranks of this being a cold case. Here's why:

• A cold case is an unsolved criminal investigation which remains open pending the discovery of new evidence. (Meaning they are no longer receiving tips, and have investigated every possible piece of evidence collected without the ability to move forward, make an arrest, or solve the case).
• I don't believe investigators are no longer receiving tips. I believe they have not received the tip needed to make an arrest. The one that places their POI(s) at the crime scene.
• IMO, Investigators have a very short list of suspects (possibly with only one or two names).
• There (again, IMO) are many things going on behind the scene that we, the public, are unaware of.
• I would not be surprised if there is yet another group of specialists/professionals going back to the beginning and reviewing both the criminal investigation (i.e.; crime scene, the contents of Libby's phone, photo/video enhancements, early witness interviews, DNA collected both at the crime scene, and from individuals who provided a sample, etc.), and the large number of tips.
• Despite the back-and-forth statements regarding DNA, I believe there was some found at the scene. And, I believe this DNA belongs to BG. My best guess (at this point), is that this DNA can be explained away for some reason.
• Investigators working on the case have contacted numerous high-profile specialists that have indicated this case can be solved. It will just be an uphill battle. (Thus the reason that after three years the case remains "unsolved").
• Someone knows who did this. They, for whatever reason (fear, uncertainty, the possibility of being arrested for withholding information), have not contacted authorities.

This may be an unpopular opinion, but I still have hope the case is being worked on a daily basis, that there will be an arrest, the case will prosecuted, and the person(s) responsible will be held accountable.

First of all, @JDough, I feel incredible compassion when I read your story. I am posting it with tears in my eyes, because it is so sad, scary and unfair. Kids should outlive the parents, and it is incredibly sad when the child is taken away by illness, or by suicide, or by overdose (I have friends among these three groups of parents), but when someone's life is taken away by murder, it is also so incredibly, darn, mean.

My personal reason for joining this forum was the disappearance of a lady I vaguely knew. But with her mom's death, one feels that someone has to keep on caring. That case is truly cold so far, I just hope that somehow, one day, the chips will fall into their places. So our small community around A@L's case, I think, serves the same purpose , to remind people of our states about this case, not to let it sink into the nothingness, until one day...

About the family who might know and is keeping silent. I think the reason might be more mundane. If it is a wife/GF/mother of the perp's (BG's) children, there is a chance she might speak. (There is some danger in living with a murderer). But if the family is well off, I would not be surprised if the fear is more mundane. If BG is working, the family is afraid that they may lose health insurance in case of an arrest, and if the family is well off, they are afraid of losing family money in civil lawsuit.

If these are parents, the situation is more complicated, and I don't know what to say to them. Perhaps, "he is not the child you knew".

But if the holder of information is the spouse, then, think - she is probably in semi-denial. If she speaks out, she risks public wrath. And then, the financial part.

In the place of LE, i'd think of securing stability for her if she agrees to testify. Having BG for a hubby is her misfortune, too, and no need to punish her, or BG's kids.

MOO.

 

[Yemelyan]

Since we were discussing the sketches in this case, here is an article about Trooper Taylor Bryant who created the younger looking sketch of BG. Very interesting to read about his process and training.

Meet the sketch artist who helps ISP catch bad guys

 

[Yemelyan]

Here's another article about Trooper Taylor Bryant's involvement in another Indiana case as sketch artist. I found this quote extremely interesting:

"It turns out, composite sketches are made more often than the public may know. Investigators don't always release them. Many times, the sketches are used only within law enforcement without the public ever seeing them.

"I don't recall ever, in working 23 to 24 years in investigations, that I've personally ever released a sketch." Investigator Mark Daggy, Elkhart County Homicide Unit, said."

So it's interesting to think about the release of not one but two sketches in the Delphi case.


Link to article: Who killed James Miller: The sketch and person of interest (Part 2)

 

[Twolabs]

Thank you; and right back at ya!

I have no desire to derail the thread, but I would like to say a few words about what the families of Abby and Libby are experiencing; well, because I know (and some of you may too). Despite the fact my case began over 20 years ago, the thoughts, feelings and emotions remain the same. There are absolutely days of hopelessness. Overwhelming sadness, depression, anxiety, sleepless nights, anger, rage, fear, and so many, many more emotions that we experience on a daily basis. And yet, we members of this club we never wanted to be a part of always, always, always come back to believing justice will be served. We can't imagine that this won't happen- it keeps us sane in our moments of desperation.

The fear of wondering who this person is and why he hasn't been arrested is all-consuming at times. What if he wants to take another member of your family away from you? What if it is a family member? What important clue may I be missing, or have forgotten? Do I see and talk to this person? Does he know me personally and watch me suffer? And most importantly: WHY, WHY, WHY?

I know, without a doubt the families are very confused with the changes in the investigation. You can read and hear their reactions in the many personal interviews they have given. And yet, they still have hope the case will be solved. They still have a steadfast faith in the investigators- not an easy task. In honor of Abby and Libby, and in support of the family- I WILL NOT GIVE UP in believing right along with them. If they are reading here now, I want them to know how much the individuals in this thread will keep searching for answers. We'll keep watching for clues, we'll keep sharing their poster seeking tips, and most of all, we'll keep caring. We will continue to come back to this thread over and over again until justice is served. We will stand right beside you (even if it can't be in person).

Your time is coming, BG. Be prepared- someone is going to get the courage to come forward. And your life as you know it will be over. It's truly a shame you aren't man enough to turn yourself in. I guess DC may have been wrong about you having a smidgen of conscience left.

What an amazing post. Thank you for helping us to understand and keep us praying for justice for all these horrible cases we keep seeing and following. So sorry you have had personal experience with this!