Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #126

Discussion in 'Located Persons Discussion' started by Tricia, Apr 22, 2019.

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  1. wary

    wary Well-Known Member

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    I think, (and my ideas have no special worth,) that a crime connected to online communication wouldn’t have been this difficult to solve.

    It’s, in my opinion, the random stranger murders that can be so completely frustrating to LE, if the murderer is lucky.
     


  2. Monger

    Monger Well-Known Member

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    Totally agree. When Jayme Closs disappeared her parents and police indicated no secret boyfriend they could find or were aware of. Some didn’t believe it. She was abducted by a total stranger who randomly spotted her at the school bus stop.
     
  3. wary

    wary Well-Known Member

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    And teens hiding things, use the techniques that will hide things from their parents, which is a far cry from the techniques that might hide things from the FBI.
     
  4. Cin.AZ00

    Cin.AZ00 Member

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    1000000000%.
     
  5. FromGermany

    FromGermany Well-Known Member

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    Imagine, the girls had technical help by the smart perp, who advised them (or Libby), to do a reset of the phone and to hide this or that of the last communication in a certain way. Teenage girls would have found that exciting, I'm sure, if they were intellectually able to follow through. - I don't claim, it has to be the case, but wouldn't it be possible? MOO
     
  6. jillybean51

    jillybean51 Well-Known Member

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    Didn't a phone reset occur a couple days prior to the murders?
     
  7. Yemelyan

    Yemelyan Well-Known Member

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    Yes, according to BP the phone reset was advice the family had gotten to fix a problem of the phone constantly freezing up. Libby's aunt Tara helped her do it. I believe this info was given in the Scene of the Crime podcast.
     
  8. I wonder

    I wonder Well-Known Member

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    This is all speculation, and my own thoughts. Abby and Libby are victims of a barbaric crime. If Abby had arranged to meet someone she had been in contact with, perhaps over a period of time, how would they contact each other? Maybe there is evidence the police have and it's part of the reasoning of the police that it's someone local. Someone was messaging her directly. It could have been a burner phone, that was used very carefully and exclusively in the Delphi area, or notes could have been left somewhere for example. That could be seen as 'really romantic' and exciting by young girls.

    I think Abby lived quite near the bridge. She may have been told by this 'boy' that he really wanted to see her, it was Valentines Day etc. Would she (Abby) meet him at the bridge? Alone.

    Abby told Libby and they agreed, Abby was not to go alone. She'd go too. That's what girls do. We go to the loo together, we meet boys for the first time together. The imagined scenario gone bad needn't have been something as terrible as what did happen, just that the boy might be ugly, it might be a joke so Libby went for as much as anything, moral support.

    What we know of the scene where the bodies were left, is that it was horrible. Lots of physical evidence, not the sort of thing you'd expect and Carter said that 'the girls are not in the same way you left them'. Does the horrible scene relate to the way the bodies were staged, or is it the entire scene?

    If the bodies were the horrible bit, was the scene also intended to be a weird 'wooing' place? I'm thinking flowers, a pile of clean leaves to sit/lie on, maybe a teddy bear, pretty stones, feathers, a tidy and private area. A mix of items to reflect what a boy/man thinks a girl likes, whilst also reflecting the boy/man's view of what he thinks men do to romance women. Wine, chocolates? A red rose? Who knows?

    Was the killer the person in contact with Abby, if so, what went wrong? Had Abby assured him she'd come alone? I've heard the girls may have seen him earlier, did they look at him in a way that indicated fear or giggle together, or share a pulled face? They didn't know he was whom Abby was meeting, but he knew at that point that his meticulously planned experience had gone. Now he was rejected (probably a familiar feeling to him) and he was angry. Or she stood on the bridge as arranged, but he'd already seen Libby was there too. She'd lied to him.

    *Or, do we go with the two people scenario? The man and his similar looking son? If it's two people, it doesn't mean that both intended and/or were involved in the murders.

    Could BG have ordered his son to leave and if the witnesses are accurate, wait for him at the abandoned building? He tells the son that he knows enough to get the death penalty. Maybe his mum isn't very well and if they both go to prison it will destroy her. If he tells, he's essentially writing his mum's death warrant. Or that if he tells, he will kill him, his mum, siblings etc. His son leaves, upset and angry, but silent.*

    BG practically runs across the bridge, knuckles clenched in his pockets. It's very much a "Get (the f?) Down the Hill". YOU DO WHAT I TELL YOU.

    The killer uses the prepared scene and adds some of his own extra touches reflecting his rage. More violent and intimidating touches, possibly part of a rape/abduction kit he carries around with him. Does it become chaotic in his rage? The scene becomes very confusing.

    The killing may be the thrill for him, (or, if there were two people involved, the sexual intention was ruined by arguing with his son). His method of killing may be time consuming. He has to choose between a sexual element and living out his fantasies. He can't be too long, people have seen him, the local residents might see him, or perhaps he heard someone's voice and it unnerved him.

    But once he's killed, he's calmer. He stages the girls, perhaps reflecting his rage with one of them, gentler (and I use the word with the knowledge that that sounds oxymoronic) with the one he had such plans with.
     
  9. Justice101

    Justice101 Well-Known Member

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    Was it ever confirmed from LE that clothes were found in the creek?

    What I originally remember, was there was a TV news crew with helicopter footage right when the area was full f investigators.. and the helicopter video showed what looked like clothes caught in the lower branches of a tree limb that had fallen into the water. To me, that is just an opinion that it was one of the girl's clothes.

    So, was it confirmed or did this comment all stem from the TV station helicopter video?
     
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  10. Yemelyan

    Yemelyan Well-Known Member

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    A MSM photographer who was there on the ground on the day the girls were found, who was photographing the scene in his official capacity for the Pharos Tribune newspaper stated that he saw girls' undergarments in the water and knew that they were found nearby. He wasn't in the helicopter. He was photographing the search efforts.

    I do agree that footage from the helicopter that day also appears to show clothes tangled in branches in the water, however that's MOO. I think you can even see an LE searcher standing nearby as if to mark that spot while others conduct their searches in the water nearby.
     
  11. Justice101

    Justice101 Well-Known Member

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    Thank you so much. Wow, the photographer would have had to have had to almost cross the scene tape to get close enough (even with a 300mm lens) to be able to get photos of undergarments near the crime scene. That surprises me. Do we know where the photographer was location wise?
     
  12. Jax49

    Jax49 Florida Native - now residing in Jacksonville

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    The photographer reports he was about 75 yards away.

    J Kyle Keener

    ETA: Not sure we know where he was located, but for some reason it is stuck in my mind that he was on the bridge. moo
     
  13. jillybean51

    jillybean51 Well-Known Member

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    Great post!Very much along my lines of thinking.Especially along the lines of being enraged that Libby showed up too.
     
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  14. Yemelyan

    Yemelyan Well-Known Member

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    The creek was between him and the crime scene so no crossing of the tape was involved.
     
  15. Justice101

    Justice101 Well-Known Member

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    So, since there was crime scene tape at the south end of the bridge limiting access, do we assume he was on the other bank? If so, there were a load of police on that side too parked on that gravel driveway road.
    This doesn't make sense.

    Did he actually show pictures? Or just say that he took pictures of that??

    I went to the link and the photos he shows of LE investigators is where they are on a steep bank next to the north bank of the river. This is wayyyy downstream from where the crime scene is in that flat plane.

    I don't know this guy.. he might be honest and objective... but I would not trust this information at all.
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2020
  16. MistyWaters

    MistyWaters Well-Known Member

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    This is one of JKK’s photos. It appears the entire trail was initially blocked off as a crime scene, plus the entrance from the cemetery and gravel road that becomes a driveway (as per Daily Mail photo). As he posted other photos of searchers walking across the bridge it’s likely he was around and about during the search and when the bodies were discovered. I think that must’ve been when he claimed to have spotted the girls clothing, but that’s only my opinion. I don’t recall him posting an actual photo of the girls clothing, only the twitter (or FB?) comment.

    upload_2020-9-9_14-14-12.jpeg
    Sheriff's caution tape blocks entry to an area near Deer Creek outside Delphi. Police are investigating the discovery of two bodies found Tuesday near the creek. “JKK” | Pharos-Tribune
    UPDATED: Official on Delphi double homicide: 'There is somebody out there who did this crime'
     
  17. Yemelyan

    Yemelyan Well-Known Member

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    He had pictures of lots of different areas that day, including some that he took while standing on the bridge itself. I believe he is the origin of all of the "creek bank" photos of investigators that are publically available. He did not post photos of the clothing that he claimed he saw. The claim was made on a caption of a photo of something else . It's still viewable on his official site at the link @Jax49 gave.
     
  18. Yemelyan

    Yemelyan Well-Known Member

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    @MistyWaters post reminded me to clarify - the MSM photographer was not claiming that he discovered the crime scene because he spotted the clothes. He was saying the girls had been found, he was still on scene, and as he photographed for the newspaper he realized that clothes were in the water and the crime scene itself must be nearby.
     
  19. MistyWaters

    MistyWaters Well-Known Member

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    Yes and IIRC, the media helicopter video wasn’t taken immediately following the discovery of the bodies. If there was clothing in the creek, I really doubt it would’ve been left in the water for long given the immediate police presence. I’ve looked at the video several times and I don’t think it identifies clothing any more than other illusions that have been discounted including a man standing at the end of the bridge or hiding in the bushes. JMO
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2020
  20. Cryptic

    Cryptic Well-Known Member

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    Some stones in the world are weighty and cannot be over turned.

    The faux philosophy aside, it may not be possible to recreate some social media exchanges- even for national level police forces. In particular, whether or not Snap Chat exchanges can be recreated by anyone, including the FBI has been discussed on the forum.

    Though I dont think a definite answer was arrived at on the forum, the case of the Riverside, CA ISIS terrorists shows how commonly available technology can hamper even the FBI.

    Breaking the entry code on their Apple phones would have been easy. Breaking the code, however, would have resulted in a data erasure so complete that not even the FBI could recover it. In the midst of a long court battle to open the phone, the FBI was assisted by a third party and withdrew their lawsuit.
    Apple v the FBI: what's the beef, how did we get here and what's at stake?
    Why Apple is battling investigators over San Bernardino terrorists' iPhone

    In short.,...

    It might not be a matter of out smarting the FBI. Rather, it could be a matter of the victims using certain, easily available technology by chance (ie can certain social media exchanges ever be recreated?).
     
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