Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #127

Status
Not open for further replies.

Blue Amethyst

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 18, 2014
Messages
577
Reaction score
6,252
I have read where LE thinks this person may have a conscience or a family who would turn him in.

But what if this person was so high on drugs that he doesn’t remember. He doesn’t remember where he was and he doesn’t remember what he did that day.

No one came knocking on his door so if there was a possibility that he was there then he certainly is not going to admit it even if he thinks that maybe he was there.

He may be a loner, living alone without family knowing his day to day whereabouts. They know he is a drug addict but don’t keep tabs on him.

This is purely speculation and just another idea.
 

Yemelyan

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 16, 2017
Messages
2,974
Reaction score
27,209
Holy mackerel! Is his name Goliath?

Can you imagine what the person he was attacking felt like???

From reading reports of this incident, there appear to be significant mental health issues involved.

I think the Delphi killer, though acting opportunistically, was much more in control of his actions regarding his crime than this other guy showed.
 

BigTexas

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 6, 2014
Messages
125
Reaction score
1,137
That’s as good as guess as any other.
Do we know if that creek is deep enough for kayaking? I thought of it as fairly shallow, although IDK.
I am not sure how deep the creek was at that time, but from personal experience I can tell you that I have personally canoed and kayaked on the Mount Fork River in Hochatown, Okla., in water not much more deep than a foot in some places. The kayak would be better suited for shallow water based on weight. Sometimes when I tandem canoed with my dad, we would drag on lower areas of the river due to weight. But I can see a quick escape via open top kayak and those kayaks do not weight much either so a person would be able to carry it. I have carried one by myself before. MOO and from my own experience
 

rosesfromangels

Amateur speculations and opinion only
Joined
Feb 24, 2010
Messages
11,859
Reaction score
59,007
I am not sure how deep the creek was at that time, but from personal experience I can tell you that I have personally canoed and kayaked on the Mount Fork River in Hochatown, Okla., in water not much more deep than a foot in some places. The kayak would be better suited for shallow water based on weight. Sometimes when I tandem canoed with my dad, we would drag on lower areas of the river due to weight. But I can see a quick escape via open top kayak and those kayaks do not weight much either so a person would be able to carry it. I have carried one by myself before. MOO and from my own experience
Thank you - interesting insight, and appreciate the personal perspective. We need these fresh ideas; thank you!

Amateur opinion and speculation
 

somequestions

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 27, 2015
Messages
1,062
Reaction score
4,105
Good witnesses are hard to find. Try this test on selective attention.


The real point, in my opinion, is to show how unreliable people are when it comes to selective memories. I have family members all the time that tell me that I should remember something or wonder why I do not remember something the same way as they do. One time I even inadvertently tricked them by telling them a story from my childhood. Now only did they go along with it, but one of my siblings actually acted like they were a part of it too! (they added themselves to the story). I did not correct them, because maybe they were a part of it and I just do not remember correctly.

The sad truth, in my opinion, is that people will believe anything without questioning the veracity of the information. People think they see things or know something all the time. The reality is that we tend to focus on what we think is important to remember and forget the rest. And sometimes we even add information that was not even there to begin with! I think we are all guilty of this, but the difference is between people that admit it and people that don't. They are right, and they know it.

Hopefully when it comes to that second sketch that person had good selective memory or this case may be going in the wrong direction for a long time.

I think the FBI agent on the HLN program said it best when it comes to Abby and Libby's case and why police do not want to release more information. She said that people are lonely and want to be a part of something and that if you release any more information you will get 600,000 tips about the new information when they would rather have a person who comes to them and tells them new information. And then tells them more as she said. Sorry if this is not verbatim for what she may have said, but I am going from memory. I admit my memory is not perfect.

I got the number correct, but did not see the other item in the video.
 

MistyWaters

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 2, 2017
Messages
10,159
Reaction score
52,729
I am not sure how deep the creek was at that time, but from personal experience I can tell you that I have personally canoed and kayaked on the Mount Fork River in Hochatown, Okla., in water not much more deep than a foot in some places. The kayak would be better suited for shallow water based on weight. Sometimes when I tandem canoed with my dad, we would drag on lower areas of the river due to weight. But I can see a quick escape via open top kayak and those kayaks do not weight much either so a person would be able to carry it. I have carried one by myself before. MOO and from my own experience

upload_2020-11-1_16-56-14.jpeg
A 360 tour of the Monon High Bridge

Recalling discussion from earlier threads, I’m positive from High Bridge Deer Creek then flows through the town of Delphi, also alongside other portions of the trail system which assumably are far more popular with locals out and about on a warm February day.

If anyone saw a canoe or kayak during afternoon I’d wonder why LE didn’t mention that along with the possibility of someone walking along the highway. I’m not ruling out an exit via the river, just that I’d think it would’ve attracted notice.
 

SMK777

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 9, 2020
Messages
2,471
Reaction score
18,931
I have read where LE thinks this person may have a conscience or a family who would turn him in.

But what if this person was so high on drugs that he doesn’t remember. He doesn’t remember where he was and he doesn’t remember what he did that day.

No one came knocking on his door so if there was a possibility that he was there then he certainly is not going to admit it even if he thinks that maybe he was there.

He may be a loner, living alone without family knowing his day to day whereabouts. They know he is a drug addict but don’t keep tabs on him.

This is purely speculation and just another idea.
I’ve had this thought also. It can’t be dismissed as a possibility.
 

sunshineray

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2019
Messages
3,956
Reaction score
30,883
Sheriff Leazenby said just a little over a month from the girl's murders...

“We’re going deeper with alibis that are provided,” Carroll County Sheriff Tobe Leazenby said. “Part of the reason … we have learned of people who have lied to us on the alibi.”

So early on enough people were lying to police about their whereabouts that local LE publicly annouced they were going deeper into the alibis being provided.

Abby's Mom Anna recently did a podcast where she stated that LE knew of 50 (maybe a little more) people in that trail area that day.

That's a lot of people to question...where EXACTLY were you and when, WHAT were you doing and with whom?

I'm wondering if the Sheriff was talking about any of those people when he addressed the liars so soon after the crimes?

Police corroborating alibis given in Delphi killings

 

MistyWaters

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 2, 2017
Messages
10,159
Reaction score
52,729
Sheriff Leazenby said just a little over a month from the girl's murders...

“We’re going deeper with alibis that are provided,” Carroll County Sheriff Tobe Leazenby said. “Part of the reason … we have learned of people who have lied to us on the alibi.”

So early on enough people were lying to police about their whereabouts that local LE publicly annouced they were going deeper into the alibis being provided.

Abby's Mom Anna recently did a podcast where she stated that LE knew of 50 (maybe a little more) people in that trail area that day.

That's a lot of people to question...where EXACTLY were you and when, WHAT were you doing and with whom?

I'm wondering if the Sheriff was talking about any of those people when he addressed the liars so soon after the crimes?

Police corroborating alibis given in Delphi killings


If this statement was significantly directed toward a guilty party, LE has had over 3 years to strongly focus their glare on any one suspect, yet they’ve never once said they’re close to an arrest. Quite the opposite actually.

RL may’ve been one who lied as I doubt he immediately admitted to driving his truck to the county landfill site while his licence was revoked. There’s many reasons someone might lie about an alibi aside from attempting to hide the fact they’re guilty of committing two murders. Such as not wanting to readily admit what they were doing at the time if it was something they shouldn’t have been doing or somewhere or with someone they shouldn’t have been. JMO
 
Last edited:

somequestions

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 27, 2015
Messages
1,062
Reaction score
4,105
After all this time, is the investigation on the right path? Is the person depicted in the second sketch a true representation of the person police believe murdered Abigail Williams and Liberty German? As the Indiana State Police wrote next to the sketch, this(second sketch) is the person who murdered Abigail Williams and Liberty German. Is it? Is the killer a young man that will look somewhat similar to the sketch when he is found?

I think the second sketch was just a guess of a person who may have been out on the trails that day that they threw out there to see if it might lead to the killer because after over 2 years the investigation was stalled, and there was nothing else left to do.

This case looked so promising to be solved, at the beginning.
 

sunshineray

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2019
Messages
3,956
Reaction score
30,883
If this statement was significantly directed toward a guilty party, LE has had over 3 years to strongly focus their glare on any one suspect, yet they’ve never once said they’re close to an arrest. Quite the opposite actually.

RL may’ve been one who lied as I doubt he immediately admitted to driving his truck to the county landfill site while his licence was revoked. There’s many reasons someone might lie about an alibi aside from attempting to hide the fact they’re guilty of committing two murders. Such as not wanting to readily admit what they were doing at the time if it was something they shouldn’t have been doing or somewhere or with someone they shouldn’t have been. JMO
I agree that some number of the 50 or so may have lied about timeframes and/or activities because they had been doing some things they shouldn't. I wonder if an alibi for BG came out of that group. That's what I think could have happened. Someone provided an alibi...example: yeah me and so and so left the trails at 1pm and went here. Digging deeper, the "here" may have included another corroberating person.

Now you go down the road two years and LE finds out the first person was not being truthful about the time frame that they left the trails.

It just interests me greatly as to why a person in that trail area that day would lie to investigators.

Checking on known sex criminals in the community is expected when you have two murdered young girls. Digging into people's alibis when they're just out and about enjoying a community park/trail system on an out of the ordinary warm February day is something entirely different.

They think BG is a local. They think he knows the area of the crime very well. They think he's been hiding in plain sight. They think someone is covering for him.

I think the 50 + people in that area, that day, are the group to really scrutinize, again and again. Someone in that group of people knows who the killer is, AJMO.
 
D

Deleted member 102539

Guest
I have read where LE thinks this person may have a conscience or a family who would turn him in.

But what if this person was so high on drugs that he doesn’t remember. He doesn’t remember where he was and he doesn’t remember what he did that day.

No one came knocking on his door so if there was a possibility that he was there then he certainly is not going to admit it even if he thinks that maybe he was there.

He may be a loner, living alone without family knowing his day to day whereabouts. They know he is a drug addict but don’t keep tabs on him.

This is purely speculation and just another idea.
If the killer was so very high on drugs and didn't know, what he was doing, how did he manage to get away so perfectly? He had to be rather right in his mind, maybe despite some drugs/alcohol, to be powerful, efficient, quick. He had to be able driving a car for his escape (IF not an accomplice waited for him nearby). IMO
 

Yemelyan

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 16, 2017
Messages
2,974
Reaction score
27,209
Sheriff Leazenby said just a little over a month from the girl's murders...

“We’re going deeper with alibis that are provided,” Carroll County Sheriff Tobe Leazenby said. “Part of the reason … we have learned of people who have lied to us on the alibi.”

So early on enough people were lying to police about their whereabouts that local LE publicly annouced they were going deeper into the alibis being provided.

Abby's Mom Anna recently did a podcast where she stated that LE knew of 50 (maybe a little more) people in that trail area that day.

That's a lot of people to question...where EXACTLY were you and when, WHAT were you doing and with whom?

I'm wondering if the Sheriff was talking about any of those people when he addressed the liars so soon after the crimes?

Police corroborating alibis given in Delphi killings


As @MistyWaters said, Leazenby is almost certainly referring at least partly to RL when he says that people have lied to LE about their alibis in this investigation.

LE in this case were criticized early on for going after people who, it was discovered in the course of the investigation, committed other totally unrelated (sometimes arguably minor) crimes. It was felt by some that this created a lack of trust in fully opening up to LE with all that the public knew.

For the record, I don't necessarily think that LE made a mistake in doing this, not do I personally think that things like driving with a revoked license is minor when DUI has been involved, but this is a criticism that has been leveled.

I agree, as others have said, that there may be multiple reasons for not being completely forthcoming with police in an investigation. Not just other unrelated criminal activity but things like covering up an unrelated affair in a personal relationship, covering up work-related misbehavior. It would be smart to come clean to police in these situations in order to not get in trouble for an even bigger situation, but a certain portion of people always think they can outsmart police.

There is verified LE investigator on these boards who said that in investigations that go on as long as this one, police procedure is that alibis are never checked just once for people who are integral to the crime. Procedure is to go back multiple times checking because after a year or two people's stories start to change as relationships and circumstances shift. IMO
 

Marzipan

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 19, 2014
Messages
271
Reaction score
1,301
After all this time, is the investigation on the right path? Is the person depicted in the second sketch a true representation of the person police believe murdered Abigail Williams and Liberty German? As the Indiana State Police wrote next to the sketch, this(second sketch) is the person who murdered Abigail Williams and Liberty German. Is it? Is the killer a young man that will look somewhat similar to the sketch when he is found?

I think the second sketch was just a guess of a person who may have been out on the trails that day that they threw out there to see if it might lead to the killer because after over 2 years the investigation was stalled, and there was nothing else left to do.

This case looked so promising to be solved, at the beginning.
Taking all of these comments into consideration, or even aside from these comments...do you believe the second sketch does in fact look very much like any one known individual? We can't name people, but I'm just curious if any of you look at that sketch and feel strongly that it represents, as much as a sketch can, any specific person who is a potential suspect.
 

SMK777

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 9, 2020
Messages
2,471
Reaction score
18,931
There is verified LE investigator on these boards who said that in investigations that go on as long as this one, police procedure is that alibis are never checked just once for people who are integral to the crime. Procedure is to go back multiple times checking because after a year or two people's stories start to change as relationships and circumstances shift. IMO
Over the years I’ve read several true crime books in which a suspect escapes detection, even though interviewed by LE. Additionally, he has a wife or GF giving him a solid alibi. After a couple of years, a breakup or divorce has her retract that alibi, and LE renews their focus. Ultimately he is proven to be the murderer.
 

MistyWaters

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 2, 2017
Messages
10,159
Reaction score
52,729
I agree that some number of the 50 or so may have lied about timeframes and/or activities because they had been doing some things they shouldn't. I wonder if an alibi for BG came out of that group. That's what I think could have happened. Someone provided an alibi...example: yeah me and so and so left the trails at 1pm and went here. Digging deeper, the "here" may have included another corroberating person.

Now you go down the road two years and LE finds out the first person was not being truthful about the time frame that they left the trails.

It just interests me greatly as to why a person in that trail area that day would lie to investigators.

Checking on known sex criminals in the community is expected when you have two murdered young girls. Digging into people's alibis when they're just out and about enjoying a community park/trail system on an out of the ordinary warm February day is something entirely different.

They think BG is a local. They think he knows the area of the crime very well. They think he's been hiding in plain sight. They think someone is covering for him.

I think the 50 + people in that area, that day, are the group to really scrutinize, again and again. Someone in that group of people knows who the killer is, AJMO.

Just my thoughts but I think LE doesn’t put as much emphasis on alibis as we might think. An accused is considered innocent until proven guilty and all that, so when charges are laid and the case goes to trial the prosecution is required to offer far more evidence as to why the accused is guilty than lack or doubt of an alibi. If that wasn’t the way it is, it’d be an example of the exact opposite - the accused having to prove he’s innocent through an alibi.

Not having a verifiable alibi or even lying about an alibi is not proof of guilt in the absence of other evidence to convict an accused of committing the murders. I can think of a few trials where the suspect was found guilty even though the defence called a witness who claimed they were with the suspect and were nowhere near the murder scene at the time of the murder but there was strong incriminating evidence including testimony to indicate the accused indeed was present and committed the crime. The defence witness may’ve lied or their recollection might be faulty as say-so alibis can neither be proven or disproven. Then it’s up to the jury to weigh the totality of the evidence and testimony put forth.

JMO
 
Last edited:

Yemelyan

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 16, 2017
Messages
2,974
Reaction score
27,209
Just my thoughts but I think LE doesn’t put as much emphasis on alibis as we might think. An accused is considered innocent until proven guilty and all that, so when charges are laid and the case goes to trial the prosecution is required to offer far more evidence as to why the accused is guilty than lack or doubt of an alibi. If that wasn’t the way it is, it’d be an example of the exact opposite - the accused having to prove he’s innocent through an alibi.

Not having a verifiable alibi or even lying about an alibi is not proof of guilt in the absence of other evidence to convict an accused of committing the murders. I can think of a few trials where the suspect was found guilty even though the defence called a witness who claimed they were with the suspect and were nowhere near the murder scene at the time of the murder but there was strong incriminating evidence including testimony to indicate the accused indeed was present and committed the crime. The defence witness may’ve lied or their recollection might be faulty as say-so alibis can neither be proven or disproven. Then it’s up to the jury to weigh the totality of the evidence and testimony put forth.

JMO

100% agree with this. An alibi that is only confirmed by one other person, especially if an intimate or family member, does not go in the "covered" category without other significant corresponding evidence that bears it out (work records, cell phone or vehicle GPS data, etc) IMO.
 

StarryStarryNight

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 2, 2017
Messages
2,006
Reaction score
22,827
Just my thoughts but I think LE doesn’t put as much emphasis on alibis as we might think. An accused is considered innocent until proven guilty and all that, so when charges are laid and the case goes to trial the prosecution is required to offer far more evidence as to why the accused is guilty than lack or doubt of an alibi. If that wasn’t the way it is, it’d be an example of the exact opposite - the accused having to prove he’s innocent through an alibi.

Not having a verifiable alibi or even lying about an alibi is not proof of guilt in the absence of other evidence to convict an accused of committing the murders. I can think of a few trials where the suspect was found guilty even though the defence called a witness who claimed they were with the suspect and were nowhere near the murder scene at the time of the murder but there was strong incriminating evidence including testimony to indicate the accused indeed was present and committed the crime. The defence witness may’ve lied or their recollection might be faulty as say-so alibis can neither be proven or disproven. Then it’s up to the jury to weigh the totality of the evidence and testimony put forth.

JMO

I agree. I think clearing alibis early in an investigation helps thin the suspect pool and points to certain people who might need to be looked at further. But lack of an alibi won’t convict someone as you point out.
We’re almost four years out in this case. I’m sure LE is constantly rechecking things including alibis, but I think alibis are way down on that list now except for new POIs. Just my thoughts.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top