Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #127

[IceIce9]

well reading the article on the Heather Bogel case, it says the suspect was a delivery man for Whirlpool. He is not a suspect in the Delphi case but I did read the article based on the poster's suggestion. mOO

He worked in the Whirlpool plant in Clyde, Ohio. Not as a delivery man. Heather Bogel worked in the Whirlpool plant too, and he delivered parts to her inside the plant.

 

[IceIce9]

I worked with him. He actually wore a justice for Heather t shirt to work.

So you worked in the Whirlpool plant too?

 

[IceIce9]

I don't think Daniel Myers, who killed Heather Bogle, could be BG for three main reasons: he's over 4 hours away, in another state, with no known connection to Delphi, he's older (age 48 in 2017) than LE seem to think their suspect is, and the main reason is the victims he preyed on and how he chose them seem totally different than what happened in the Delphi case IMO. Myers stalked women he knew personally, grooming or choosing victims who he predicted would not report his rapes. See this article for details on this part of his MO: Heather Bogle case: Daniel Myers' vices detailed in 138-page report

Some articles state that he killed Heather Bogle in a rage because she laughed at him when she rejected his sexual advances. When you read more about his crimes you see that this is way over simplistic. He had already stalked her previously and the real motive for killing her is that unlike his other victims she fought back against his assault.

What I will say is going to be similar IMO between Daniel Myers and the Delphi killer is the focus of the offender on power, domination and control expressed as sexual violence. I also think that like Myers, BG is going to have a trail of victims that did not report his crimes against him (or, they reported it and the allegations against him went nowhere). Myers had 10 other victims of his sexual assaults and no one came forward until after his arrest.

This is from another article about Heather Bolger:

. 28-year old Bogel was found in the trunk of a car, beaten and shot twice in the back in 2015. The case went unsolved for over two years until it was re-launched under a different Sheriff's administration. Meyers was arrested and charged with her murder within months.

Daniel Myers sentenced to life in prison in the murder of Heather Bogle

 

[IceIce9]

And this

. A former Sandusky County detective was sentenced to 24 months in prison for tampering with evidence in a murder case. Heather Bogel was found dead in the trunk of her car in Clyde in 2015. Sean O'Connell was the lead detective in the homicide investigation. He mislead the prosecutor by failing to give all the information about evidence in the case.

 

[IceIce9]

I worked with him. He actually wore a justice for Heather t shirt to work.

I wonder if the murderer of Libby and Abby could have attended their funerals similar to
Myers attending Heather’s funeral.

. Toledo, Ohio (WNWO)-- A former co-worker of Heather Bogle is remembering her life and legacy. Kaitlynn Risner wotked with Bogle at a local Whirlpool factory. Another person that worked there...Myers himself. He also attended her funeral and contributed to a go fund me for the bogelfamily.Bogle's body was found in the trunk of a car in Clyde back in 2015.

Co-worker of Heather Bogle speaks following Daniel Myers life sentence conviction

 

[minazoe]

l

I wonder if the murderer of Libby and Abby could have attended their funerals similar to
Myers attending Heather’s funeral.

Im sure the FBI would tell you it has a enough likelihood that they would attend the funeral and look for the suspect.
maybe like a 35 % chance...( don't quote me)..but a good chance and a good chance he was at the scene of the search either openly or hidden. mOO

 

[minazoe]

side note..you might ask why they do it..they do it because they get exquisite pleasure from the pain they have caused.

Being able to be close to his victim in death adds to the fantasy and allows the killer to cherish and re-live his violent act and stay connected to the victim.

Think of how Jodi Arias became visibly excited by the conversation around photos of the victim and begged to see them. think of how she wrote letters to Travis's family.

it's a thing they do as Im sure you all are aware... mOO

 

[Dirk diggler]

The suspect in the Heather Bogel case?

Yes

 

[Dirk diggler]

So you worked in the Whirlpool plant too?

Yes

 

[pearl]

Another reason killers attend memorials and funerals of their victims is to check out LE activity and possible focus on someone.

 

[Charlot123]

Purdue: I would like to know, if there were adult guests for some special reason allowed to take part, in a class with these teenagers.
Financial motivation for murder: IF there was financial motivation, it would have been murder for hire - I wouldn't rule it out completely. A skilled sk, who murdered for thrill or murdered for thrill and money. I believe, it can be both, possibly. IMO

I wonder if Craigslists for 2016-17 in Indiana are still available. One could find interesting ads there.

 

[rosesfromangels]

Troll alert

 

[Diddian]

I'm having some trouble making the connection between your theory that there were two perpetrators and your second conclusion (which I bolded above) that it then follows that the murders were planned and at least one girl specifically targeted. I would ask, can two people make a decision that if the right opportunity arose, they might try to abduct random children/teens for a criminal purpose? One example that sticks in my mind, because I read the victim's brother's account of the crime, is the murder of Jonathan Kushner in Florida. In this case there were two offenders who together decided that they would abduct and sexually torture a child. According to the confession, they planned to abduct a girl if the right situation came about but "settled" for a boy on that particular day because the opportunity was a good one (he had biked alone to a store to buy candy). The account of their decision was given in the victim's brother's book, "Alligator Candy."



I don't know whether this detail makes a difference to your theory - to me it seems significant - but the "forensics-related course at Purdue University" was not a regular college-level class where she would have attended with college students or even perhaps a college professor. I looked into this at the time and Purdue offered through their school of education a variety of science and engineering "experiences" or one-day workshops for middle school students, one of the popular ones was called Super Saturday and you could enroll your kid in a variety of science-themed programs. Due to COVID these have all been canceled for the current year so there is less information online now than there used to be, but IMO it looked like her "forensics class" would have been a one day or maybe weeklong drop-off day program that coincided with a school holiday like winter or spring break. It was a fun activity for science-minded young students but it wasn't a college course and she wasn't mingling on campus with the general Purdue student body IMO.



As you pointed out, @Diddian, adults killing female teens for a financial motivation is quite rare when compared to other motives such as sexual assault or attempted sexual assault. If this was my theory I would collect as many examples of solved cases where teens were killed for known financial gain as I could and compare it to this one. Were the victims killed inside or outside of their home? Were they abducted first? Were they male or female? Were the victims involved in activities that had to do with drugs or sex work? And then I'd look at the Delphi case and see if any of the patterns fit.

 

[Diddian]

Sorry all, I quoted @Yemelyan to respond and by the time I'd typed up my reply, I timed out and had to start over. Here goes. I've snipped and copied Yemelyan's response and answered in three sections.

@Yemelyan, thank you for your reply and my apologies for the late response. I’ve snipped your reply into three sections and will respond to each.

I'm having some trouble making the connection between your theory that there were two perpetrators and your second conclusion (which I bolded above) that it then follows that the murders were planned and at least one girl specifically targeted. I would ask, can two people make a decision that if the right opportunity arose, they might try to abduct random children/teens for a criminal purpose? One example that sticks in my mind, because I read the victim's brother's account of the crime, is the murder of Jonathan Kushner in Florida. In this case there were two offenders who together decided that they would abduct and sexually torture a child. According to the confession, they planned to abduct a girl if the right situation came about but "settled" for a boy on that particular day because the opportunity was a good one (he had biked alone to a store to buy candy). The account of their decision was given in the victim's brother's book, "Alligator Candy."

Yes, of course, two people can make a decision that if the right opportunity arose, they might try to abduct random children/teens for a criminal purpose. Perhaps that happened here, but we do not KNOW that to be the case. Unless LE has specific evidence pointing in that direction to the exclusion of others, it would be unwise to make that their sole or even primary operating assumption while dismissing other possibilities. In the absence of that evidence, other possibilities remain open.

As to my theories about two perpetrators and this being a planned crime, I have been drafting an answer to you; however, laying out the evidence and my assumptions is resulting in a draft several pages long and I still have much to add. Given the volume and the certainty that publishing it here will compel challenges, I have decided to wait, finish what I’m writing, and then to go back to my notes and to what I’ve read to date to source all the evidence and reconsider the inferences I’ve made to determine their reasonableness. That will take quite a bit of time. If, through the course of that effort, I decide to discard my theory, I’ll come back and let you know.

For now, consider my theory a “what if” that starts from the victims and asks whether it was something about one or both of them in particular that attracted the perpetrator’s attention and motivated his killing them. I am not victim blaming; I am considering the possibility that for some reason the perpetrator considered one or both of them a threat and so, eliminated that threat and any witnesses to the abduction and killing that accomplished that for him.


I don't know whether this detail makes a difference to your theory - to me it seems significant - but the "forensics-related course at Purdue University" was not a regular college-level class where she would have attended with college students or even perhaps a college professor. I looked into this at the time and Purdue offered through their school of education a variety of science and engineering "experiences" or one-day workshops for middle school students, one of the popular ones was called Super Saturday and you could enroll your kid in a variety of science-themed programs. Due to COVID these have all been canceled for the current year so there is less information online now than there used to be, but IMO it looked like her "forensics class" would have been a one day or maybe weeklong drop-off day program that coincided with a school holiday like winter or spring break. It was a fun activity for science-minded young students but it wasn't a college course and she wasn't mingling on campus with the general Purdue student body IMO.

You say you “looked into this at the time” and came to some conclusions, but respectfully, that is not evidence unless it matches what LE investigation has determined to be true. To my knowledge LE have not released a statement on the matter, so all we have is what LG’s family members have said. (Please correct me if I’m wrong.)

It is not unheard of for young people to take college courses (some for credit and others for noncredit). My daughter was recommended for and enrolled in a college course shortly after she turned 15. It was taught in her private high school by a PhD in Physics hired to teach that particular course (Pre-Calculus), but the textbook, syllabus, and exams were all provided by the professor who taught the course in the university and he graded all exams. Students earned the same college credits as those taking the course at the university and the course, grade, and credits earned appear on their college transcripts. Also, a friend’s son at age 11 attended a week-long, in-residence program at the same university, offered as part of a “gifted program.” That program does not offer college credit, but admission to and attendance in that program is recognized as a worthy achievement on college applications. Many of those students begin their university careers at 14 or 15.

I don’t know whether LG was doing something similar, but I am not going to dismiss the possibility until I know with certainty otherwise.


As you pointed out, @Diddian, adults killing female teens for a financial motivation is quite rare when compared to other motives such as sexual assault or attempted sexual assault. If this was my theory I would collect as many examples of solved cases where teens were killed for known financial gain as I could and compare it to this one. Were the victims killed inside or outside of their home? Were they abducted first? Were they male or female? Were the victims involved in activities that had to do with drugs or sex work? And then I'd look at the Delphi case and see if any of the patterns fit.

To be clear, my theory was that the perpetrator may have planned to kill one or both of the girls to eliminate a rival to someone dear to him (perhaps his daughter). I speculated that one or both of the girls may have been such an athletic star (and also a high academic achiever) that the perpetrator feared she might outcompete the perpetrator’s daughter, so that the daughter did not gain something (a spot on the high school varsity team, or an Indiana Elite team) to which the perpetrator thought the daughter had worked hard for and was entitled to. Perhaps the perpetrator followed that path himself (elite athlete in high school, earning a spot on a college team along with college admission and scholarships) and wanted his child to do the same.

The financial motivation (potential scholarships that often come with athletic or academic achievement) would have been secondary, if it was a motivation at all.

As to your next point, I believe crimes are solved by following and evaluating the evidence and making reasonable inferences from what is found. Statistical probabilities are helpful to consider in building a profile that might possibly fit the crime or the perpetrator(s) and so point to potential suspects or motivations, but there are occasionally crimes that defy the statistics and that don’t align with historical crime patterns. While I might use statistics and patterns to explore potentials for a crime, I would never exclude possibilities based upon them. To do so would dismiss what might lead to solving of a rare crime.

 

[minazoe]

Im sure the crime scene tells the tale. LE is looking for a sex offender suspect/ violent suspect/ serial killer personality.

I think if it was a execution type of killing there would be a different focus.

mOO

 

[Yemelyan]

Sorry all, I quoted @Yemelyan to respond and by the time I'd typed up my reply, I timed out and had to start over. Here goes. I've snipped and copied Yemelyan's response and answered in three sections.

@Yemelyan, thank you for your reply and my apologies for the late response. I’ve snipped your reply into three sections and will respond to each.

I'm having some trouble making the connection between your theory that there were two perpetrators and your second conclusion (which I bolded above) that it then follows that the murders were planned and at least one girl specifically targeted. I would ask, can two people make a decision that if the right opportunity arose, they might try to abduct random children/teens for a criminal purpose? One example that sticks in my mind, because I read the victim's brother's account of the crime, is the murder of Jonathan Kushner in Florida. In this case there were two offenders who together decided that they would abduct and sexually torture a child. According to the confession, they planned to abduct a girl if the right situation came about but "settled" for a boy on that particular day because the opportunity was a good one (he had biked alone to a store to buy candy). The account of their decision was given in the victim's brother's book, "Alligator Candy."

Yes, of course, two people can make a decision that if the right opportunity arose, they might try to abduct random children/teens for a criminal purpose. Perhaps that happened here, but we do not KNOW that to be the case. Unless LE has specific evidence pointing in that direction to the exclusion of others, it would be unwise to make that their sole or even primary operating assumption while dismissing other possibilities. In the absence of that evidence, other possibilities remain open.

As to my theories about two perpetrators and this being a planned crime, I have been drafting an answer to you; however, laying out the evidence and my assumptions is resulting in a draft several pages long and I still have much to add. Given the volume and the certainty that publishing it here will compel challenges, I have decided to wait, finish what I’m writing, and then to go back to my notes and to what I’ve read to date to source all the evidence and reconsider the inferences I’ve made to determine their reasonableness. That will take quite a bit of time. If, through the course of that effort, I decide to discard my theory, I’ll come back and let you know.

For now, consider my theory a “what if” that starts from the victims and asks whether it was something about one or both of them in particular that attracted the perpetrator’s attention and motivated his killing them. I am not victim blaming; I am considering the possibility that for some reason the perpetrator considered one or both of them a threat and so, eliminated that threat and any witnesses to the abduction and killing that accomplished that for him.


I don't know whether this detail makes a difference to your theory - to me it seems significant - but the "forensics-related course at Purdue University" was not a regular college-level class where she would have attended with college students or even perhaps a college professor. I looked into this at the time and Purdue offered through their school of education a variety of science and engineering "experiences" or one-day workshops for middle school students, one of the popular ones was called Super Saturday and you could enroll your kid in a variety of science-themed programs. Due to COVID these have all been canceled for the current year so there is less information online now than there used to be, but IMO it looked like her "forensics class" would have been a one day or maybe weeklong drop-off day program that coincided with a school holiday like winter or spring break. It was a fun activity for science-minded young students but it wasn't a college course and she wasn't mingling on campus with the general Purdue student body IMO.

You say you “looked into this at the time” and came to some conclusions, but respectfully, that is not evidence unless it matches what LE investigation has determined to be true. To my knowledge LE have not released a statement on the matter, so all we have is what LG’s family members have said. (Please correct me if I’m wrong.)

It is not unheard of for young people to take college courses (some for credit and others for noncredit). My daughter was recommended for and enrolled in a college course shortly after she turned 15. It was taught in her private high school by a PhD in Physics hired to teach that particular course (Pre-Calculus), but the textbook, syllabus, and exams were all provided by the professor who taught the course in the university and he graded all exams. Students earned the same college credits as those taking the course at the university and the course, grade, and credits earned appear on their college transcripts. Also, a friend’s son at age 11 attended a week-long, in-residence program at the same university, offered as part of a “gifted program.” That program does not offer college credit, but admission to and attendance in that program is recognized as a worthy achievement on college applications. Many of those students begin their university careers at 14 or 15.

I don’t know whether LG was doing something similar, but I am not going to dismiss the possibility until I know with certainty otherwise.


As you pointed out, @Diddian, adults killing female teens for a financial motivation is quite rare when compared to other motives such as sexual assault or attempted sexual assault. If this was my theory I would collect as many examples of solved cases where teens were killed for known financial gain as I could and compare it to this one. Were the victims killed inside or outside of their home? Were they abducted first? Were they male or female? Were the victims involved in activities that had to do with drugs or sex work? And then I'd look at the Delphi case and see if any of the patterns fit.

To be clear, my theory was that the perpetrator may have planned to kill one or both of the girls to eliminate a rival to someone dear to him (perhaps his daughter). I speculated that one or both of the girls may have been such an athletic star (and also a high academic achiever) that the perpetrator feared she might outcompete the perpetrator’s daughter, so that the daughter did not gain something (a spot on the high school varsity team, or an Indiana Elite team) to which the perpetrator thought the daughter had worked hard for and was entitled to. Perhaps the perpetrator followed that path himself (elite athlete in high school, earning a spot on a college team along with college admission and scholarships) and wanted his child to do the same.

The financial motivation (potential scholarships that often come with athletic or academic achievement) would have been secondary, if it was a motivation at all.

As to your next point, I believe crimes are solved by following and evaluating the evidence and making reasonable inferences from what is found. Statistical probabilities are helpful to consider in building a profile that might possibly fit the crime or the perpetrator(s) and so point to potential suspects or motivations, but there are occasionally crimes that defy the statistics and that don’t align with historical crime patterns. While I might use statistics and patterns to explore potentials for a crime, I would never exclude possibilities based upon them. To do so would dismiss what might lead to solving of a rare crime.

I'm not dismissing any of your speculations, certainly they might be true. I still don't follow how you went from the speculation that there were two perpetrators to the conclusion that one girl was targeted, but as you say, it will be interesting to read your thoughts on that.

Certainly LE know by now what the science program at Purdue was, it's just my opinion (as I stated originally) that it wasn't a regular college-level class. I'm basing this on interviews with the Pattys and on the programming offered at Purdue for young teens at that time.

One thing I would say about speculation and theories of unsolved crimes like this one, especially since you said yourself your theory was far fetched. It is interesting to read different ideas about the crime, to be sure. Most of these are based on things that we the public don't know but LE certainly do.

I would just mention that it is easy to fall into the line of thinking that because a crime is still unsolved after X amount of time that there must be something really unusual about the motive or the circumstances. And yes, there are some odd crimes out there. But the vast majority of them IMO do fall into the same type of patterns. It's just that stranger on stranger crime (if that's what this was) can be truly hard to solve. The idea that because it's still unsolved one needs a really far fetched theory to explain it - that's not necessarily true.

 

[Diddian]

I'm not dismissing any of your speculations, certainly they might be true. I still don't follow how you went from the speculation that there were two perpetrators to the conclusion that one girl was targeted, but as you say, it will be interesting to read your thoughts on that.

Certainly LE know by now what the science program at Purdue was, it's just my opinion (as I stated originally) that it wasn't a regular college-level class. I'm basing this on interviews with the Pattys and on the programming offered at Purdue for young teens at that time.

One thing I would say about speculation and theories of unsolved crimes like this one, especially since you said yourself your theory was far fetched. It is interesting to read different ideas about the crime, to be sure. Most of these are based on things that we the public don't know but LE certainly do.

I would just mention that it is easy to fall into the line of thinking that because a crime is still unsolved after X amount of time that there must be something really unusual about the motive or the circumstances. And yes, there are some odd crimes out there. But the vast majority of them IMO do fall into the same type of patterns. It's just that stranger on stranger crime (if that's what this was) can be truly hard to solve. The idea that because it's still unsolved one needs a really far fetched theory to explain it - that's not necessarily true.

Thanks for following up and I do understand your concerns. As I mentioned when I posted yesterday, I have only been following this case a relatively short time (maybe 2 months?) and have been basically cramming to get a good sense of it. I'm using Websleuths, the Delphi subreddit, and two podcasts - "Scene of the Crime" and "Down the Hill." I'd welcome any other suggestions for boning up on the case, preferably sources that avoid rabbit holes and stray paths.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

I don’t think I can agree with the thoughts that an adult would kill the girls because the adult felt somehow threatened by one or both of the girls. Certainly there are super crazy people who might, but mostly an adult would more likely be annoyed by some young teen and convene a “back off” or “if you know what’s good for you” talk.

 

[Mandala]

I don't think Daniel Myers, who killed Heather Bogle, could be BG for three main reasons: he's over 4 hours away, in another state, with no known connection to Delphi, he's older (age 48 in 2017) than LE seem to think their suspect is, and the main reason is the victims he preyed on and how he chose them seem totally different than what happened in the Delphi case IMO. Myers stalked women he knew personally, grooming or choosing victims who he predicted would not report his rapes. See this article for details on this part of his MO: Heather Bogle case: Daniel Myers' vices detailed in 138-page report

Some articles state that he killed Heather Bogle in a rage because she laughed at him when she rejected his sexual advances. When you read more about his crimes you see that this is way over simplistic. He had already stalked her previously and the real motive for killing her is that unlike his other victims she fought back against his assault.

What I will say is going to be similar IMO between Daniel Myers and the Delphi killer is the focus of the offender on power, domination and control expressed as sexual violence. I also think that like Myers, BG is going to have a trail of victims that did not report his crimes against him (or, they reported it and the allegations against him went nowhere). Myers had 10 other victims of his sexual assaults and no one came forward until after his arrest.

Yes, you’re right. I’m from Australia so I just linked it when I looked on the US map and saw the states Ohio and Indiana were next to each other. And I guess he looked like he fit the type of killer I imagine BG to be. Having not read much into the Heather Bogle case I realise now it doesn’t fit the victim profile and he doesn’t have any links to Delphi.

 

[Mandala]

I worked with him. He actually wore a justice for Heather t shirt to work.

That’s creepy.