Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #127

Discussion in 'Located Persons Discussion' started by Tricia, Apr 22, 2019.

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  1. heartgoesout

    heartgoesout Well-Known Member

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    How?
     


  2. Ekliptika

    Ekliptika Well-Known Member

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    Look up livor mortis and how is used in forensic investigations.
     
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  3. Yemelyan

    Yemelyan Well-Known Member

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    I doubt the constitutionality of the bolded suggestion. You need to show probable cause for the DNA of a specific person - there's no way that LE could show reasonable cause for everyone, or even all the men, in the entire town.

    To my knowledge, previous cases that used DNA sweeps or dragnets asked for voluntary participation. However, because of increased focus on how this type of seizure could be coerced and how samples are stored and used, there is a lot of risk of legal challenge to it. For this reason, I think the "voluntary" DNA sweep tactic is used by LE with extreme caution.
     
  4. minazoe

    minazoe Well-Known Member

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    Do they have probable cause to say the killer is a Delphi area resident? mOO
     
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  5. heartgoesout

    heartgoesout Well-Known Member

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    Nah. Was hoping to get your cliff note version on how exactly LE can tell a body was moved.
     
  6. MistyWaters

    MistyWaters Well-Known Member

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    Note the word “believe” - they’ve never flat out stated “is from Delphi”. If he’s only visited Delphi, he wouldn’t be considered to be from Delphi. If he works in Delphi, or had, he still could be from another area or community within driving distance.

    “We also believe this person is from Delphi — currently or has previously lived here, visits Delphi on a regular basis or works here," Carter said.”
    Delphi murders: Is Abby and Libby’s killer one of Delphi’s own? ISP says, yes

    Investigators aren’t committed to “beliefs” as that can change over time, arising from new information. Therefore probable cause isn’t required in order to believe and no arrest has occurred.
     
  7. MistyWaters

    MistyWaters Well-Known Member

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    Short answer - first a Cause of Death would have to be known to answer that question. For example if it involved a stabbing or shooting, blood loss would’ve occurred at the crime scene.
     
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  8. Sheila Terranova

    Sheila Terranova Well-Known Member

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    I can not believe this case has gone ice cold. Particularly since the innocents went to the trouble of videotaping and audio recording their murderer.
     
  9. heartgoesout

    heartgoesout Well-Known Member

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    In this case we do not know the cause of death therefore when Ekliptika said "you Will be able to establish during the autopsy whether that person has been moved since death occured or died at the place where they were found" they are implying something else.
     
  10. Yemelyan

    Yemelyan Well-Known Member

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    <modsnip: quoted post was removed>

    Lividity, or livor mortis, is the gravitational pooling of blood in the body after death. It starts occurring pretty much as soon as blood circulation ceases. It's a dark reddish purple coloration of the skin that's usually fully evident after about 3-4 hours and fixed after 8-12 hours. I think a lot of people here probably know about rigor mortis, the stiffening of the body after death and how rigor mortis eventually goes away? Livor mortis, or lividity, doesn't go away after it's fixed and even moving the body position will not cause it to disappear after that point.

    Lividity is evident not only on the skin but also in the internal organs. So even if injury to the skin or other factors made it hard to see externally, internal examination would reveal it.

    The physiological mechanism that causes lividity can be pretty variable among individuals so just by itself, it can't be used to yield an exact time of death. However, it can be an indicator of body positioning. For example, if someone died facedown and was left that way long enough for lividity to occur, then was transported from the murder scene and dumped on his back at a later point in time, the forensic examiner would know that the body had been moved at some point. Lividity would be looked at in conjunction with other characteristics of the crime scene, not by itself, to determine if a body had been moved.

    This was all MOO and decidedly not the cliffs notes version - sorry.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 23, 2020
  11. mpnola

    mpnola Well-Known Member

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    Thank you! I was hoping someone would type that out for the asker. We follow a lot of cases and that is something that might not be known to people who don't follow true crime, but comes up often, if you do. Its an interesting and important thing to learn about. Even as an overview.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 23, 2020
  12. Imvp2

    Imvp2 Well-Known Member

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    I've always thought the jacket had a camo print on the shoulders. MOO
     
  13. StarryStarryNight

    StarryStarryNight Well-Known Member

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    I’ve been wondering for awhile whether LE’s switch from billboards and and a more nationwide search to the April 2019 press conference insistence that the killer is local was driven by a them getting back at least some results on familial DNA that showed he was from that part of Indiana, but nothing more specific. Maybe LE only has partial DNA so couldn’t do a full analysis but found out that much.
     
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  14. drama_farmer

    drama_farmer Central Kentucky (Bluegrass)

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    In some cases, the company that owns or places ads on billboards comes forward with an offer to host a particular message, for free, for a certain period of time. If that was the case early on in the Delphi investigation, I couldn't imagine the investigators saying no thanks, he's probably local.

    Imo
     
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  15. kkdj

    kkdj Well-Known Member

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  16. Charlot123

    Charlot123 Well-Known Member

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    Well, if you are right, let us hope that something might change next year.

    I don't know much about FBI, but thinking in parallels, I can imagine that all such structures, worldwide, are a cross between paramilitary and bureaucratic. And between the two, I'd be more concerned about the bureaucratic trend. Military, much as it is ruled and regulated to the extreme, still attracts and raises talented people. Bureaucracy is dependent on the position.

    So for an army person, an order from above is the order, but we do see many cases of unsubordination with positive results. For a bureaucrat, the only fear is losing the job.
    He'd be apt to follow any order.

    So let us hope that the orders might change, or the people are replaced.
     
  17. StarryStarryNight

    StarryStarryNight Well-Known Member

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    I agree with that. My point was mostly concerning why the sudden change in direction with the 2019 PC, not just the “local” aspect but everything. I was just wondering.
     
  18. Kimmer

    Kimmer Well-Known Member

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    IMO I think the change of direction came after cleaning up and listening to the phone audio and realizing there was more then 1 male present.
     
  19. drama_farmer

    drama_farmer Central Kentucky (Bluegrass)

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    Good point. I may have replied to the wrong post, LOL
     
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  20. heartgoesout

    heartgoesout Well-Known Member

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    Thank you.
     
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