Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #127

[StarryStarryNight]

My understanding is data recorded from cell tower only contains identifiers of the devices which ping off it, referred to as a tower dump. A tower dump wouldn’t be illegal because it doesn’t disclose confidential information, really no different than a motorist driving down a public highway with his licence plate revealed.

Then from the identifier, if LE has reason to they can apply for a search warrant to obtain the actual cellphone records from the specific company who’s the service provider for whoever signed up for an account involving that particular cellphone. It’s that sort of detailed information that’s not captured from cell towers.

JMO

So, just like a license plate points to a car and its owner, the identifiers from a cell tower dump point to a cell phone and its owner, just without a lot of extra information. As long as LE is only looking at public information about these drivers or phone owners...name, address, work, etc....that would be OK? But things like phone records, financial info etc would be off limits without warrant and probable cause?
If that is so it seems like that might be helpful and just the fact that someone was in an area where a violent crime occurred would be probable cause to look into some of those people a little closer.
I’m not trying to be difficult, I’m just trying to understand.

 

[MistyWaters]

So, just like a license plate points to a car and its owner, the identifiers from a cell tower dump point to a cell phone and its owner, just without a lot of extra information. As long as LE is only looking at public information about these drivers or phone owners...name, address, work, etc....that would be OK? But things like phone records, financial info etc would be off limits without warrant and probable cause?
If that is so it seems like that might be helpful and just the fact that someone was in an area where a violent crime occurred would be probable cause to look into some of those people a little closer.
I’m not trying to be difficult, I’m just trying to understand.

Without a search warrant seeking the information from the service provider, I don’t think LE has any way of just looking. The difference in my comparison to a licence plate is cellphone service providers are private companies therefore police require a search warrant to obtain cellphone information, even if a cell tower dump indicates a cellphone ping in a certain location.

In terms of solving crimes it certainly could prove valuable if LE were able to access any information they choose but doing so violates individual rights to privacy. I’m certain that’s made investigations far more challenging but at the same time most people value privacy laws for other reasons.

JMO

 

[Yemelyan]

So, just like a license plate points to a car and its owner, the identifiers from a cell tower dump point to a cell phone and its owner, just without a lot of extra information. As long as LE is only looking at public information about these drivers or phone owners...name, address, work, etc....that would be OK? But things like phone records, financial info etc would be off limits without warrant and probable cause?
If that is so it seems like that might be helpful and just the fact that someone was in an area where a violent crime occurred would be probable cause to look into some of those people a little closer.
I’m not trying to be difficult, I’m just trying to understand.

Robert Ives also addresses this topic in the podcast Scene of the Crime. He was the one who submitted subpoenas for cell tower data and they tried to figure out if there were any phones that lingered in the area of the trails on the 13th. However, since the girls' murders, laws have actually changed on the admissibility of evidence like this (they changed in 2018 I believe).

Investigators might be in a situation where they have intelligence derived from the cell tower data that now might not be able to be used to build a prosecution against a particular person.

 

[MistyWaters]

Robert Ives also addresses this topic in the podcast Scene of the Crime. He was the one who submitted subpoenas for cell tower data and they tried to figure out if there were any phones that lingered in the area of the trails on the 13th. However, since the girls' murders, laws have actually changed on the admissibility of evidence like this (they changed in 2018 I believe).

Investigators might be in a situation where they have intelligence derived from the cell tower data that now might not be able to be used to build a prosecution against a particular person.

I wonder if this connects with the reason LE has continually emphasized the importance of people providing them with good tips. A tipster’s report of somebody in or around Delphi that same day who caused them any suspicion whatsoever often is enough to support a search warrant. JMO

 

[bigdata]

With this case approaching the 4 year milestone, I have a few observations that, imo, shed light on obstacles that limit the contributors of this forum from full, or at least, enhanced engagement in this case and more importantly, potential insight that may prove valuable to LE..these thoughts are from a new user perspective so if some of this exposes my limited knowledge of the ins & outs of both LE and the way things work on this forum, so be it..
1-the content, contributor’s interaction and ,in some cases, overall expertise displayed here is pretty amazing; but if you take a step back and think about it, this forum and it’s ability to provide useful deliverables in this case is dependent upon viable information; with that said, imo the state of the available information in this case needs to remain fresh (or be refreshed) to enable the user community to progress and provide useful insights that could potentially play a part in solving..the limitations of information released is an obstacle..
2- which takes me to LE and the desire to save some pertinent information and not release so that they will be able to confirm person when time comes..what time is that? 1 more year? 5?, 10? beyond?..i understand need to hold sensitive, but it seems there is so much about this crime that has not been divulged, it , imo, is somewhat of a hindrance to the overall participation of the community and certainly resources here..trump cards not in the game are of lesser value

 

[Spartygirl]

If he is not being confrontational towards the girls, perhaps he is speaking to someone else who's with him.


Perhaps both girls made it off the MHB and ran down the hill. Hence, BG is ordering an accomplice to head "Down the hill".

Kelsi said in an interview this year that Abby was wearing one of Liberty's sweatshirts. Then, she said one of Liberty's shoes was found on the paved driveway - while she was there helping search - so she went to see it and IDed it as one Libby wore that fateful day.

Libby lost a shoe on the driveway. Perhaps this is where the culprit(s) caught up with the precious children; down the hill and on the driveway.

This is Julie's video, Post #70, from the Media thread. She shows us the driveway while she's on top of the bridge. Begin video at 3:18

If there was a third guy with a vehicle, he could have been told to come to their location on the road. Then, driven them to the cemetery and forced them to the killing site.

Maybe the purpose of two sketches is to inform BG that LE knows he had assistance.

Sgt. Tony Slocum stated BG's wearing a hoodie.

I watched a movie recently, "Rust Creek". The setting is rural Kentucky where a guy makes meth. After making batches, he takes the residue left in the buckets down to the Creek and rinses them. A young lady becomes lost in the area. She quickly became a target for the meth dealers because they felt she'd seen them emptying the poisonous residue into Rust Creek.

Is it probable is it that BG suspected the girls witnessed him/them dumping illegal contaminates into Deer Creek?

Honestly, I never thought of dumping anything but I did think perhaps they ran into illegal drugs being mixed, used, sold, etc. and someone perhaps thought they "saw" something they shouldn't have seen. JMO
But then again, I think they were targeted so there's that.

 

[Spartygirl]

Psychics try to insinuate themselves in MANY high profile missing or murdered cases. These people are frauds and it is absolute pure luck, or some talented guesswork/hot reading, if they happen to be right once in a while (even a broken clock is right twice a day). If you know anything at all about FBI profiling methods it’s not hard to make some accurate guesses. They are vultures and prey on families in their absolute most desperate hour of need and grief and will grasp onto any straw. This is JMO and I clearly feel strongly about it but there’s plenty you can read about this out there (one example Psychic Who Said Amanda Berry Was Dead Silent After Berry Is Found Alive).

Hmm first of all, I have never heard of the Michigan murderer or at least I don't think I have.. I will google. I live in Michigan

As far as psychics go -- I am on the fence. I realize most are frauds however, I do know real and true ones. Of course, they don't put themselves out there for media or cases, and tend to keep it to themselves, the few I know personally.

 

[Ravenmoon]

If he is not being confrontational towards the girls, perhaps he is speaking to someone else who's with him.


Perhaps both girls made it off the MHB and ran down the hill. Hence, BG is ordering an accomplice to head "Down the hill".

Kelsi said in an interview this year that Abby was wearing one of Liberty's sweatshirts. Then, she said one of Liberty's shoes was found on the paved driveway - while she was there helping search - so she went to see it and IDed it as one Libby wore that fateful day.

Libby lost a shoe on the driveway. Perhaps this is where the culprit(s) caught up with the precious children; down the hill and on the driveway.

This is Julie's video, Post #70, from the Media thread. She shows us the driveway while she's on top of the bridge. Begin video at 3:18

If there was a third guy with a vehicle, he could have been told to come to their location on the road. Then, driven them to the cemetery and forced them to the killing site.

Maybe the purpose of two sketches is to inform BG that LE knows he had assistance.

Sgt. Tony Slocum stated BG's wearing a hoodie.

I watched a movie recently, "Rust Creek". The setting is rural Kentucky where a guy makes meth. After making batches, he takes the residue left in the buckets down to the Creek and rinses them. A young lady becomes lost in the area. She quickly became a target for the meth dealers because they felt she'd seen them emptying the poisonous residue into Rust Creek.

Is it probable is it that BG suspected the girls witnessed him/them dumping illegal contaminates into Deer Creek?

It's really good to think outside the box. This is an interesting angle- my question is- if this was Libby's phone recording, and the girls bolted, where does the "down the hill" recording actually come from?

 

[kkdj]

I ve been looking at an old case ( the Michigan Murderer ) ..and caught my attention that a psychic was asked to assist...and he successfully described the killer and his age range and the location and detail about the crimes not released to the public...and his future murders..........
we might not fully believe in this stuff .. but how cool if a really good psychic would do the same here ...and not on youtube

That would be be cool except I simply don't believe in psychics. Not one single bit. jmo

 

[Ravenmoon]

Still costs money and at 13, her mom probably knew where she was spending. It’s possible she had one but I don’t think its very likely.

So, some kids/people have phones that don't have service through providers. They can still use the phones at places that have free Wi-Fi for social media and messenger that way. No monthly plan needed. Maybe she had one of Libby's old phones. Or even her moms?

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Did have Abby a job at something like a fast food restaurant? I noticed, that many American teenagers have jobs in a very young age already.
I remember very vague, to have learned about a job, but I can't find a link.

 

[Yemelyan]

Did have Abby a job at something like a fast food restaurant? I noticed, that many American teenagers have jobs in a very young age already.
I remember very vague, to have learned about a job, but I can't find a link.

What you might be remembering is that one or both girls had "jobs" listed on their Facebook pages. (If I recall correctly, one of them might have been "taste tester at The Pizza King.") Obviously, taste tester is not a real job, it is a joke about how much she loved pizza. At one time it was a trend for people, especially teens, to list obviously fake jobs on their Facebook pages as a kind of inside joke. A very common one was "cook at The Krusty Krab" which was a joke referencing the cartoon Spongebob Squarepants.

 

[Awsi Dooger]

Kelsi said in an interview this year that Abby was wearing one of Liberty's sweatshirts. Then, she said one of Liberty's shoes was found on the paved driveway - while she was there helping search - so she went to see it and IDed it as one Libby wore that fateful day.

Libby lost a shoe on the driveway. Perhaps this is where the culprit(s) caught up with the precious children; down the hill and on the driveway.

There have been many different versions of this. Kelsi tends to vary and is not always dependably precise. I know it frustrates the guy who does the timeline on Reddit.

I think it would be valuable to know where the shoe was found. But the info likely would have to come from members of the search party, IMO, and not Kelsi. I think it was more of a long distance shouting verification of who the shoe belonged to, than Kelsi seeing for herself.

I tend to doubt the shoe was found on the driveway. I remember Kelsi saying she was with a search party underneath the bridge on that side, when members of another party yelled up after finding the shoe. If they found the shoe on the private drive, then it wouldn't have been yelling up because they would have been on the same level as Kelsi, and not too far away. The driveway runs smack underneath the bridge on that side. This is a photo I took in November 2019. BTW, the most likely area of descent down the second stage of the hill would be center right of the photo, just beyond the largest tree. It isn't obvious in this photo but you really have to backtrack left toward the bridge before that second stage becomes less gnarly and severe:

imgur.com

I think Kelsi was on the driveway level so the group yelling up would have been on the lower level, not far from the creek bank. This is what the dropoff looks like from the driveway level to the lower level. For whatever reason this slope is seldom depicted well. You can see the further right you go the dropoff becomes shorter and less severe, plus there are not as many gnarly roots. The best available spot is roughly 5 yards further right from the end of this photo. You have to backtrack 25 or 30 yards left from the end of the bridge, after going down the first stage of the hill:

imgur.com

Last night Gray Hughes had a 4-hour call-in show on Delphi. I listened to only portions. At one stage (1:58:00) he had a graphic with various points spotlighted, including the location of Libby's shoe. He has it in yellow near the creek bank directly across from the crime scene, and a long way below the driveway. I'm not sure that it correct but it makes sense. If the bodies were spotted not long after Libby's shoe was identified then it has to be via binoculars used from the edge of the creek, and not dozens of yards further away on the private drive. Tree cover would prevent looking across the creek from there. The graphic also indicates that a shoe discovered there would be a long way from underneath the bridge where Kelsi was searching, requiring shouting back and forth. I would estimate the gap is 130 yards:

BTW, in that Gray Hughes video if you freeze the screen at 2:57:02 that is the best indication of where the bodies were found. It is a clip taken within days after the murders. Crime scene tape is still up. Somebody superimposed slide-screen props to attempt to conceal the people in the background. But at 2:57:02 those props slide away briefly and the people in the background are visible. They are standing near the small ridge and condensed circle of trees. I'm not sure if they are family members or investigators. The guy at far left has white hair so it could be Ron Logan.

 

[DeDee]

From the media links, Post #166 is an interview with Sgt Tony Slocum. In part, he says:

" I don't know the situation...I don't know if there was multiple people there because we still don't know.”

“...we released a voice and we released a photograph but we're not saying they're the same person because quite frankly we don't know.”
Nothing found for Episode Tony Slocum

There have been many different versions of this. Kelsi tends to vary and is not always dependably precise.

I think it would be valuable to know where the shoe was found. But the info likely would have to come from members of the search party, IMO, and not Kelsi. I think it was more of a long distance shouting verification of who the shoe belonged to, than Kelsi seeing for herself.

I tend to doubt the shoe was found on the driveway. I remember Kelsi saying she was with a search party underneath the bridge on that side, when members of another party yelled up after finding the shoe.

At one stage (1:58:00) he had a graphic with various points spotlighted, including the location of Libby's shoe. He has it in yellow near the creek bank directly across from the crime scene, and a long way below the driveway.

<Respectfully Snipped for focus>
Thank you for an informative response. I admire GH's work on this case and intend to view more of that video. Gray and I don't agree on one important point. That is, I don't believe the girls were taken thru the mostly shallow water to the other side realizing the water would be at least waist high on the girls near the middle. Liberty would be missing a shoe while traversing the creek. There'd also be an embankment to climb in order to for them to reach the CS.

It's why a vehicle was likely involved to take them to the back of the cemetery and over to the CS on foot as there is a path from the cemetery for most of that trek towards RLs property.

Further, I feel Liberty was forced to remove her own clothing at the CS that later was found in the water. She fought back against the horrific assault but we don't know if BG was left with scratches since his body was very well-covered.

I'm not sure how many various accounts KG gave about LGs shoe, but she said in that particular interview that the shoe was found on the driveway and that she went to ID it as indeed the one LG wore that day. Why wouldn't she want to physically see her sister's shoe? The shoe presents a clue to the flow of the crime.

LE released the image, brief video and audio more for the benefit of BG to have a glimpse of their evidence.

 

[news buff]

Must be the one of the few, but have felt that there were at least two people involved, and likely more.

 

[DeDee]

It's really good to think outside the box. This is an interesting angle- my question is- if this was Libby's phone recording, and the girls bolted, where does the "down the hill" recording actually come from?

The recordings came from Libby's phone. We don't know how loudly BG was with his commands as the FBI worked their magic on obtaining the best quality possible for their purposes of presentation.

A stranger stalking the girls would say "Guys" to two girls and not to his accomplices? LE is telling BG that LE knows there is more than one involved, jmho.

The main purpose for the clips are for BG to have a glimpse into evidence captured. DCarter said, "You want to know what we know."

 

[kkdj]

The recordings came from Libby's phone. We don't know how loudly BG was with his commands as the FBI worked their magic on obtaining the best quality possible for their purposes of presentation.

A stranger stalking the girls would say "Guys" to two girls and not to his accomplices? LE is telling BG that LE knows there is more than one involved, jmho.

The main purpose for the clips are for BG to have a glimpse into evidence captured. DCarter said, "You want to know what we know."

BBM
Do you have something to verify this? I've not heard this before.
jmo

 

[Peppery]

There have been many different versions of this. Kelsi tends to vary and is not always dependably precise. I know it frustrates the guy who does the timeline on Reddit.

I think it would be valuable to know where the shoe was found. But the info likely would have to come from members of the search party, IMO, and not Kelsi. I think it was more of a long distance shouting verification of who the shoe belonged to, than Kelsi seeing for herself.

I tend to doubt the shoe was found on the driveway. I remember Kelsi saying she was with a search party underneath the bridge on that side, when members of another party yelled up after finding the shoe. If they found the shoe on the private drive, then it wouldn't have been yelling up because they would have been on the same level as Kelsi, and not too far away. The driveway runs smack underneath the bridge on that side. This is a photo I took in November 2019. BTW, the most likely area of descent down the second stage of the hill would be center right of the photo, just beyond the largest tree. It isn't obvious in this photo but you really have to backtrack left toward the bridge before that second stage becomes less gnarly and severe:

imgur.com

I think Kelsi was on the driveway level so the group yelling up would have been on the lower level, not far from the creek bank. This is what the dropoff looks like from the driveway level to the lower level. For whatever reason this slope is seldom depicted well. You can see the further right you go the dropoff becomes shorter and less severe, plus there are not as many gnarly roots. The best available spot is roughly 5 yards further right from the end of this photo. You have to backtrack 25 or 30 yards left from the end of the bridge, after going down the first stage of the hill:

imgur.com

Last night Gray Hughes had a 4-hour call-in show on Delphi. I listened to only portions. At one stage (1:58:00) he had a graphic with various points spotlighted, including the location of Libby's shoe. He has it in yellow near the creek bank directly across from the crime scene, and a long way below the driveway. I'm not sure that it correct but it makes sense. If the bodies were spotted not long after Libby's shoe was identified then it has to be via binoculars used from the edge of the creek, and not dozens of yards further away on the private drive. Tree cover would prevent looking across the creek from there. The graphic also indicates that a shoe discovered there would be a long way from underneath the bridge where Kelsi was searching, requiring shouting back and forth. I would estimate the gap is 130 yards:

BTW, in that Gray Hughes video if you freeze the screen at 2:57:02 that is the best indication of where the bodies were found. It is a clip taken within days after the murders. Crime scene tape is still up. Somebody superimposed slide-screen props to attempt to conceal the people in the background. But at 2:57:02 those props slide away briefly and the people in the background are visible. They are standing near the small ridge and condensed circle of trees. I'm not sure if they are family members or investigators. The guy at far left has white hair so it could be Ron Logan.

Re distance from shoe to scene: I do remember shortly after finding the shoe, one of the searchers looked up and saw two deer. He took out his phone to zoom in on the deer and saw something. That turned out to be the girls. He said it wasn’t visible without the zoom on his phone.

 

[Peppery]

Re distance from shoe to scene: I do remember shortly after finding the shoe, one of the searchers looked up and saw two deer. He took out his phone to zoom in on the deer and saw something. That turned out to be the girls. He said it wasn’t visible without the zoom on his phone.

so this quote doesn’t have the cell phone part but I’m still looking for it.
Families of teens murdered on Delphi, Ind. trail speak out 1 year after discovery of bodies


It was a volunteer searcher who discovered the bodies of the Delphi teens, lying in the grass between a group of trees deep in the woods.

"He saw something. He could not figure out what it was. There were two deer standing up there. As he looked up to see what it was, that is when he saw them," said Libby's grandma, Becky Patty.

 

[DeDee]

BBM
Do you have something to verify this? I've not heard this before.
jmo

LE is telling BG that LE knows there is more than one involved, jmho.

jmho added to the end of the statement means it is "just my humble opinion."