Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #127

[heartgoesout]

When someone is found dead you Will be able to establish during the autopsy whether that person has been moved since death occured or died at the place where they were found.

How?

 

[Ekliptika]

How?

Look up livor mortis and how is used in forensic investigations.

 

[Yemelyan]

you have to have a reason to hold someone. you have to have an order to collect DNA. they should get an order and swab everyone in town.

find the relative if there is one.

it is my understanding that many SK's follow and learn from other notorious SK's which means he may never pick a place he is connected to to do a killing, or like many others, he plays the county game, or state line game, in an effort to stymy LE from connecting his crimes.

obviously something about the crime scene says this is a local person. how else would they be able to ascertain this?

for me , a possible communication may have happened. the thing for me though is that SK's are liars and may say
just about anything..like when Shannan Gilbert's killer called her sister and told her Shannen was in a *advertiser censored* house in
Brooklyn ( or something)..

what is it about the crime scene would tell them this is a local resident committing these crimes?

I wish we knew because Delphi is a small town and that is very myopic in focus.

mOO

I doubt the constitutionality of the bolded suggestion. You need to show probable cause for the DNA of a specific person - there's no way that LE could show reasonable cause for everyone, or even all the men, in the entire town.

To my knowledge, previous cases that used DNA sweeps or dragnets asked for voluntary participation. However, because of increased focus on how this type of seizure could be coerced and how samples are stored and used, there is a lot of risk of legal challenge to it. For this reason, I think the "voluntary" DNA sweep tactic is used by LE with extreme caution.

 

[minazoe]

Do they have probable cause to say the killer is a Delphi area resident? mOO

 

[heartgoesout]

Look up livor mortis and how is used in forensic investigations.

Nah. Was hoping to get your cliff note version on how exactly LE can tell a body was moved.

 

[MistyWaters]

Do they have probable cause to say the killer is a Delphi area resident? mOO

Note the word “believe” - they’ve never flat out stated “is from Delphi”. If he’s only visited Delphi, he wouldn’t be considered to be from Delphi. If he works in Delphi, or had, he still could be from another area or community within driving distance.

“We also believe this person is from Delphi — currently or has previously lived here, visits Delphi on a regular basis or works here," Carter said.”
Delphi murders: Is Abby and Libby’s killer one of Delphi’s own? ISP says, yes

Investigators aren’t committed to “beliefs” as that can change over time, arising from new information. Therefore probable cause isn’t required in order to believe and no arrest has occurred.

 

[MistyWaters]

Nah. Was hoping to get your cliff note version on how exactly LE can tell a body was moved.

Short answer - first a Cause of Death would have to be known to answer that question. For example if it involved a stabbing or shooting, blood loss would’ve occurred at the crime scene.

 

[Sheila Terranova]

I can not believe this case has gone ice cold. Particularly since the innocents went to the trouble of videotaping and audio recording their murderer.

 

[heartgoesout]

In this case we do not know the cause of death therefore when Ekliptika said "you Will be able to establish during the autopsy whether that person has been moved since death occured or died at the place where they were found" they are implying something else.

 

[Yemelyan]

<modsnip: quoted post was removed>

Lividity, or livor mortis, is the gravitational pooling of blood in the body after death. It starts occurring pretty much as soon as blood circulation ceases. It's a dark reddish purple coloration of the skin that's usually fully evident after about 3-4 hours and fixed after 8-12 hours. I think a lot of people here probably know about rigor mortis, the stiffening of the body after death and how rigor mortis eventually goes away? Livor mortis, or lividity, doesn't go away after it's fixed and even moving the body position will not cause it to disappear after that point.

Lividity is evident not only on the skin but also in the internal organs. So even if injury to the skin or other factors made it hard to see externally, internal examination would reveal it.

The physiological mechanism that causes lividity can be pretty variable among individuals so just by itself, it can't be used to yield an exact time of death. However, it can be an indicator of body positioning. For example, if someone died facedown and was left that way long enough for lividity to occur, then was transported from the murder scene and dumped on his back at a later point in time, the forensic examiner would know that the body had been moved at some point. Lividity would be looked at in conjunction with other characteristics of the crime scene, not by itself, to determine if a body had been moved.

This was all MOO and decidedly not the cliffs notes version - sorry.

 

[mpnola]

<modsnip: Quoted post was removed>

Lividity, or livor mortis, is the gravitational pooling of blood in the body after death. It starts occurring pretty much as soon as blood circulation ceases. It's a dark reddish purple coloration of the skin that's usually fully evident after about 3-4 hours and fixed after 8-12 hours. I think a lot of people here probably know about rigor mortis, the stiffening of the body after death and how rigor mortis eventually goes away? Livor mortis, or lividity, doesn't go away after it's fixed and even moving the body position will not cause it to disappear after that point.

Lividity is evident not only on the skin but also in the internal organs. So even if injury to the skin or other factors made it hard to see externally, internal examination would reveal it.

The physiological mechanism that causes lividity can be pretty variable among individuals so just by itself, it can't be used to yield an exact time of death. However, it can be an indicator of body positioning. For example, if someone died facedown and was left that way long enough for lividity to occur, then was transported from the murder scene and dumped on his back at a later point in time, the forensic examiner would know that the body had been moved at some point. Lividity would be looked at in conjunction with other characteristics of the crime scene, not by itself, to determine if a body had been moved.

This was all MOO and decidedly not the cliffs notes version - sorry.

Thank you! I was hoping someone would type that out for the asker. We follow a lot of cases and that is something that might not be known to people who don't follow true crime, but comes up often, if you do. Its an interesting and important thing to learn about. Even as an overview.

 

[Imvp2]

I am still of the opinion that this jacket is turned inside out. Look at the quilted shoulders and the pockets. The color is different than the rest of the jacket. I still believe the buttons, snaps or loops are not closed in correct manner. JMOO
It would be interesting to see a local high school or local college letterman’s jacket turned inside out to see the comparison

I've always thought the jacket had a camo print on the shoulders. MOO

 

[StarryStarryNight]

I’ve been wondering for awhile whether LE’s switch from billboards and and a more nationwide search to the April 2019 press conference insistence that the killer is local was driven by a them getting back at least some results on familial DNA that showed he was from that part of Indiana, but nothing more specific. Maybe LE only has partial DNA so couldn’t do a full analysis but found out that much.

 

[drama_farmer]

I’ve been wondering for awhile whether LE’s switch from billboards and and a more nationwide search to the April 2019 press conference insistence that the killer is local was driven by a them getting back at least some results on familial DNA that showed he was from that part of Indiana, but nothing more specific. Maybe LE only has partial DNA so couldn’t do a full analysis but found out that much.

In some cases, the company that owns or places ads on billboards comes forward with an offer to host a particular message, for free, for a certain period of time. If that was the case early on in the Delphi investigation, I couldn't imagine the investigators saying no thanks, he's probably local.

Imo

 

[kkdj]

.

 

[Charlot123]

At this point I want to ask:
Who has more power / influence over the disclosure of investigation results and a perpetrator identification: FBI or ISP?
Is the FBI able to suppress/hinder a disclosure of investigation results due to instructions "from above"?
Excuse me for the amateurism in wording/explaining.

Well, if you are right, let us hope that something might change next year.

I don't know much about FBI, but thinking in parallels, I can imagine that all such structures, worldwide, are a cross between paramilitary and bureaucratic. And between the two, I'd be more concerned about the bureaucratic trend. Military, much as it is ruled and regulated to the extreme, still attracts and raises talented people. Bureaucracy is dependent on the position.

So for an army person, an order from above is the order, but we do see many cases of unsubordination with positive results. For a bureaucrat, the only fear is losing the job.
He'd be apt to follow any order.

So let us hope that the orders might change, or the people are replaced.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

In some cases, the company that owns or places ads on billboards comes forward with an offer to host a particular message, for free, for a certain period of time. If that was the case early on in the Delphi investigation, I couldn't imagine the investigators saying no thanks, he's probably local.

Imo

I agree with that. My point was mostly concerning why the sudden change in direction with the 2019 PC, not just the “local” aspect but everything. I was just wondering.

 

[Kimmer]

I agree with that. My point was mostly concerning why the sudden change in direction with the 2019 PC, not just the “local” aspect but everything. I was just wondering.

IMO I think the change of direction came after cleaning up and listening to the phone audio and realizing there was more then 1 male present.

 

[drama_farmer]

I agree with that. My point was mostly concerning why the sudden change in direction with the 2019 PC, not just the “local” aspect but everything. I was just wondering.

Good point. I may have replied to the wrong post, LOL

 

[heartgoesout]

<modsnip: quoted post was removed>

Lividity, or livor mortis, is the gravitational pooling of blood in the body after death. It starts occurring pretty much as soon as blood circulation ceases. It's a dark reddish purple coloration of the skin that's usually fully evident after about 3-4 hours and fixed after 8-12 hours. I think a lot of people here probably know about rigor mortis, the stiffening of the body after death and how rigor mortis eventually goes away? Livor mortis, or lividity, doesn't go away after it's fixed and even moving the body position will not cause it to disappear after that point.

Lividity is evident not only on the skin but also in the internal organs. So even if injury to the skin or other factors made it hard to see externally, internal examination would reveal it.

The physiological mechanism that causes lividity can be pretty variable among individuals so just by itself, it can't be used to yield an exact time of death. However, it can be an indicator of body positioning. For example, if someone died facedown and was left that way long enough for lividity to occur, then was transported from the murder scene and dumped on his back at a later point in time, the forensic examiner would know that the body had been moved at some point. Lividity would be looked at in conjunction with other characteristics of the crime scene, not by itself, to determine if a body had been moved.

This was all MOO and decidedly not the cliffs notes version - sorry.

Thank you.