Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #130

Discussion in 'Located Persons Discussion' started by Tricia, Apr 22, 2019.

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  1. Nancy1954

    Nancy1954 Well-Known Member

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    If there was nothing between those words.. "Guys and down the hill".. why did LE find it necessary to put that sound like breaking glass in between the "Guys.. and down the hill?"
     


  2. Pyschsandi

    Pyschsandi “There can be no good without evil.”

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    “According to Douglas and Munn, staging materializes when someone purposefully alters the crime scene prior to the arrival of the police in order to either redirect the investigation away from the most logical suspect or to protect the victim or the victim’s family (Douglas and Munn 1992). Staging is attained by altering physical evidence at the scene after and at times before the homicide in order to present a misleading appearance of the crime scene. It imitates a ‘legitimate death’ scenario or a disappearance of the victim (Chisum and Turvey 2011; Pettler 2016). Staging is thus a primary means of purposefully obstructing the criminal justice process by concealing the true nature of a crime (Hazelwood and Napier 2004: 745; Cobin 2009: 1).”
    Yifat Bitton, Hava Dayan, ‘The Perfect Murder’: An Exploratory Study of Staged Murder Scenes and Concealed Femicide, The British Journal of Criminology, Volume 59, Issue 5, September 2019, Pages 1054–1075, ‘The Perfect Murder’: An Exploratory Study of Staged Murder Scenes and Concealed Femicide
     
  3. Pyschsandi

    Pyschsandi “There can be no good without evil.”

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    I found in this same article something that former FBI agent O’toole said that staging is usually done by someone that knows the victims.
     
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  4. stattlich1

    stattlich1 Well-Known Member

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    I'm going to speculate this screenshot shows 4x8 sheets of fiberboard on the bridge. My estimate is that the bridge is about 10 feet wide, with around 7 feet between the wooden rails running lengthwise on either side.

    Estimation MOO
     

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  5. UnapologeticallyAspie

    UnapologeticallyAspie Hiding In Plain Sight: Women On the Spectrum

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    What astute & sharp hearing you have! ::clapping::
     
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  6. photographer4

    photographer4 Well-Known Member

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    The way I understood it, hiding bodies was different than covering them. Covering seemed to mean with a blanket or other clothing. Hiding seems to mean more like... dumping them somewhere else, or concealing them in a cave, or in a lake etc.... Covering the victim's bodies, changing their clothes, washing bodies... these were listed specifically as examples of "undoing" which they related to signs of remorse.

    I also understand from reading the transcripts of DTH podcast that Sgt Riley noted she stood about 300 feet away from the bodies and on a ridge of sorts. She noted she could look down and see the bodies just laying there. Loosely paraphrased. If indeed one could see the bodies just laying there from 300 feet away, then I'd surmise they weren't really "hidden". If they were covered, that might be an indicator of remorse in this case, but not an attempt to "hide" them. Hope I've made sense.
     
  7. flashy09

    flashy09 Well-Known Member

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    I think the phone is in a pocket. If there was anything clear to be heard that LE didn't want heard, they could splice it and just give two separate clips to the public.
     
  8. Charlot123

    Charlot123 Well-Known Member

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    If I were a kid, and an adult approached me, I don't know what I would have said. Kids are naturally shy in the presence of adults, sometimes they avoid looking into adults' faces, too. Also, facial memory is an odd thing. There is one that allows you to "over-recognize" (in fact, what your brain registers is "this person resembles me of someone", the 'someone' might have met seen yesterday, or very distant past).
     
  9. Yemelyan

    Yemelyan Well-Known Member

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    Not that it matters a ton but just FYI...Sgt. Kim Riley is actually a he, not a she.
     
  10. photographer4

    photographer4 Well-Known Member

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    Makes sense. I've not heard the podcasts, I've only read the transcripts. I much prefer to read than watch videos / listen to podcasts.
     
  11. Yemelyan

    Yemelyan Well-Known Member

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    You'll find posters in this thread use the word "staging" very arbitrarily. Some are using staging as it is commonly defined by LE - the deliberate alteration of the scene to mis-direct the investigation. Other posters are calling the offender behavior criminologists would refer to as "posing" or "undoing" staging instead. Still others are referring to the crime scene being "staged" and apparently they mean something like, the offender brought a kill kit to the location where he ultimately led the girls. Only the first definition is considered primary staging.

    Signature behaviors such as posing the victim, especially if meant to degrade the victim or shock the public/LE, are rarely done by offenders who know their victims. They are using their victims as objects and may undergo other behaviors aimed at depersonalizing - beating or mutilating the face of the victim or eliminating secondary sexual characteristics. This type of "undoing" is not associated with a victim/offender relationship outside of the crime IMO.

    Primary staging, on the other hand, is highly associated with a victim/offender relationship that pre-dates the crime. It's commonly done to direct LE away from likely motive and the discernable association between victim and offender. An example of primary staging (that Mary Ellen O'Toole was talking about) would be, a husband kills his wife in a domestic violence incident but after the fact stages the scene to make it look like she walked in on a robbery in progress.

    I posted a week or so ago about the different types of primary staging. The most common one is staging a homicide to look like an accident, followed by staging a homicide to look like a missing person, followed by staging a burglary/robbery. Less common is staging a homicide to appear as if it was a suicide. Staging a scene to look like a sexual homicide is the rarest of all according to FBI studies of homicide.
     
  12. Yemelyan

    Yemelyan Well-Known Member

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    If you've seen any of the press conferences, Riley is the affable older male trooper who often introduces the speakers and announces where the bathrooms are. He retired a few months ago, though.

    Like I said, it doesn't matter much in the grand scheme of things but just didn't want you to be confused when you saw other posters calling Kim Riley "he."
     
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  13. MegPTdoc

    MegPTdoc Member

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    Great idea at @sunshineray I am looking for a map or good picture of the bridges structure. If I go back to the very first page of this discussion there is a map? Under what title, do you know? I’m having a hard time finding it
     
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  14. MegPTdoc

    MegPTdoc Member

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    THANK YOU!!

     
  15. MegPTdoc

    MegPTdoc Member

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    I was just thinking that what would be the most helpful for me to help further differentiate BG gait pattern from others walking on uneven surfaces would be if any one has a video of themselves or someone they know walking on the Monon High Bridge?
     
  16. MistyWaters

    MistyWaters Well-Known Member

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    I agree that covering a body in a situation of domestic violence by a raging idiot unable to control his or her aggression might indicate remorse. But I think in this case associating words such as shame or remorse to somebody who murdered not one but two teens, who’s now thumbing his nose at LE by not coming forward to admit to it as well as leaving the family members in a state of perpetual limbo is far too generous.

    It’s far more likely the culprit had no feelings whatsoever toward his victims, otherwise the girls would still be alive. Whatever his motive was these murders were certainly not justified. JMO
     
  17. MistyWaters

    MistyWaters Well-Known Member

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    This video will give you an idea of the state of the bridge and why it’d be impossible for anyone to stride smoothly across it.

    Carter also said because they know where the man was walking on the bridge his walk is not natural because of the spacing between the ties and the deterioration in that area of the bridge.”
    https://www.wrtv.com/news/delphi/the-delphi-murders-four-years-later-and-still-no-arrests

     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2021
  18. Angels27

    Angels27 Well-Known Member

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    I just noticed in PC 2019 Sheriff TL is obviously there for DC’s safety. Notice how on high alert/ on guard TL looks and how close he is standing to him. I think they really thought the perp might be there. Also NOTICED TL starring intently at one place in the crowd. We cannot see the crowd in version I just watched, but he is clearly fixed on one person there and he continues to look away back at DC as to not make it look so obvious, imo. Then his eyes go right back to that same spot, about eye level of where an adult would be sitting. I think he is looking for a reaction from someone in that room. Do any locals know if everyone was searched and/or went thru a metal detector before entering that PC? TLs eye are definitely fixed on ONE particular point in that room. If they were smart they wired that room to the hilt to monitor every possible reaction.

    2. I feel so sorry for TL, who early on took heat online. In my own mind I ruled him out immediately based on a unique linguist trait he has, that BG does not. Also imo he seems like a stand-up guy. I couldn’t have taken the accusations with such grace.
     
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  19. Angels27

    Angels27 Well-Known Member

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    Do you guys think the BG video of him walking looks like he’s got rips in the knees of his jeans? It looks more that way to me in video than it does in still photo. I still wonder what that big flat rectangular metal like thing is down his left leg. I bet that’s why he’s walking that way. I wonder what kind of tool or whatever it could be. Any guesses?
     
  20. Charlot123

    Charlot123 Well-Known Member

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    I am not sure, I think that they both represented ISP, and as such, were on their own. Perhaps two of them met with the relatives first, and then walked out to the podium?

    Agree about TL. I think even DC managed to be accused at one point, there are a lot of conspiracy theories around ))
     
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