Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #131

[photographer4]

Tricia has approved GH as a source because she generally trusts the information he presents. GH is usually a solid source but we obviously don't know how he vetted the caller; we can only trust his word that he did.

GH also has a reputation to care about. Had it been some random caller that GH was not familiar with, we would consider it rumor. While there is no 100% guarantee, GH has said he trusts the caller, so we can be reasonably sure he knows who it is and that the information is reliable.

As Websleuths can't determine the source or whether in fact the information is reliable, members can treat the information the same way they would treat information from a Verified Insider at Websleuths .. meaning members can decide whether or not to believe the information presented or how much weight to give the information.

I wasn’t aware that anyone was an “approved source” outside of law-enforcement. Gray Hughes said the alleged information came from an unknown person that Gray says spoke to Anna after Anna saw the video. Three degrees of telephone game right there.

Welcome to WS @Jerry_Rikshaw - Pls see above - quoted post from SillyBilly which notes that GH is an approved source.

 

[photographer4]

LE keep saying they need one tip and it seems they need a pretty specific tip at that. We're told the trained investigators will know it when they hear / see it. So how are tips filtered then? Is there a sorting system? What determines how quickly police will follow up on / investigate any tips that come in?

If police have say 100 tips in a week, but they're already working on the 40 tips they got last week, how do they prioritize the new tips and decide which are important leads and which can wait?

How long do they wait before they act on something that seems to be a good tip??

 

[JnRyan]

I hate to keep harping on it, and I'll likely have to eat a whole bunch of crow when the truth finally is revealed, but what BG looked like after the murders wouldn't matter a hill of beans if he simply walked up that hill, got in his car at the cemetery, and drove away.

I'm with another poster in terms of understanding the lack of people around. IMO, there simply wasn't anyone nearby. Both closest homes were unoccupied at the time (that in and and of itself I would think is an interesting tidbit, like, did BG know this?).

Every time I see a video of someone driving back road 300, I don't see any other cars. Granted, I don't watch all of them end to end, but I think one should understand there simply isn't anyone around.

Every time I see video of that cemetery, some yt'er, or blogger drives through it, guess what.....it's empty, nobody around.

I'll be quiet now

All MOO.

I tend to believe he parked somewhere other than Freedom Bridge or the cemetery. Maybe entered the trails at the same place the girls did and afterwards exited near the cemetery. But that brings me back to your thought that no one saw him after the murders and I believe that is highly likely.

In your scenario - entering AND exiting via the cemetery - makes it possible no one saw him. Before or after the murders. That is a scary thought. LE doesn't know if they have the killer's DNA or fingerprint? What if they don't even have a witness? That only leaves the short video and audio along with the crime scene.

 

[minazoe]

is the good tip one that disproves someone's alibi? mOO

 

[photographer4]

is the good tip one that disproves someone's alibi? mOO

I mean, if they're confidently looking for that ONE specific tip that investigators will know when they see it / hear it, that certainly seems the most likely possibility. Wouldn't it then help the case though if they named someone as a POI? If all they need is to show someone lied on their alibi, then why not name him as a POI, shake the tree and see what falls out of it??

 

[No it's not]

Ok, so I wonder, is it realistic for the killer to have dragged his victims to wherever they were found? I imagine that would require a LOT of work! And that is rough terrain. Per the FBI website, Libby was 200lbs. Abby was 100lbs or so.
https://www.fbi.gov/wanted/seeking-info/abigail-williams/@@download.pdf

LIBERTY GERMAN — FBI


That's 300lbs total between the two girls. I find it hard to believe that the killer dragged their bodies anywhere really, UNLESS, he used some sort of device to do so, eg: a deer sled thing that a hunter might use? But unless one was found at the scene, either placed ahead by the killer, I don't see how he would have had access to one?

We do not know, how they got to the location where they were found. Not saying the killer dragged both of them. Not saying there was only 1 killer. Not saying Libby dragged Abby in order to save her. Is it unrealistic though? No, in my opinion it is not unrealistic.

ALL IMO

I am sure one day we will know.

-Nin

 

[photographer4]

We do not know, how they got to the location where they were found. Not saying the killer dragged both of them. Not saying there was only 1 killer. Not saying Libby dragged Abby in order to save her. Is it unrealistic though? No, in my opinion it is not unrealistic.

ALL IMO

I am sure one day we will know.

-Nin

RBBM:
Omg I never even consider that possibility! I could totally see Libby trying to drag Abby away, to try to save her best friend! I sure as heck hope the police know a hell of a lot more than we know and that an arrest is made sooner than later!

 

[MistyWaters]

I wasn’t aware that anyone was an “approved source” outside of law-enforcement. Gray Hughes said the alleged information came from an unknown person that Gray says spoke to Anna after Anna saw the video. Three degrees of telephone game right there.

I think it just means GHs videos and associated comments are allowed to be posted on this thread, as opposed to some other youtubers who’s videos haven’t been approved by WS. But Sillybilly is not declaring information from GH’s videos must be considered factual.

BBM

“As Websleuths can't determine the source or whether in fact the information is reliable, members can treat the information the same way they would treat information from a Verified Insider at Websleuths .. meaning members can decide whether or not to believe the information presented or how much weight to give the information.”

 

[MistyWaters]

I agree that LE has said they were killed where they were found, and I fully believe that. But to my knowledge, LE has never confirmed that the taped-off location south of the cemetery is where they were found. I know this is the assumed location because of RL interviews, media articles/photos, and family leaving flowers; it might well be. I've hesitated a long time to put this on here, but here's what causes conflict in me:

ISP: Delphi Homicide Investigation

On Monday, February 13th, at approximately 1:00 p.m., the two young girls were let off near the Monon High Bridge, an abandoned rail bridge over Deer Creek to walk around and hang out. They were to be picked up later in the afternoon, but did not show up there at the previously arranged time. Following an extensive search, at approximately 12:15 p.m.on February 14, 2017, the bodies of the two girls were found in a wooded area near the Delphi Historic Trail, approximately one-half mile upstream from the bridge.

No matter where I measure from anywhere on the bridge to the location south of the cemetery (as the crow flies, via the flow of the creek, from north, middle, or south end of the bridge), it is nowhere near "one-half mile." It's closer to one-quarter mile or less. I'm marking one measurement on a map, for simplicity, but I've done many others and none work out to one-half. JMO

Holeman said in a interview that the reenactments are wrong and show the public doesn't know the facts (can't find the source).

The article with helicopter footage shows a location on RL property that IS closer to one- half mile. https://www.wrtv.com/news/local-new...07.2145477666.1613826310-536975449.1613826310

All just my own thoughts...

I agree with all that you’ve written. This is a question I’ve had on my mind since the early days. Other than RL leading the reporter down the hill towards the river and pointing to abandoned crime scene tape, I’ve never noticed any media photos indicating the entire boundaries. However I do recall one video revealing tape at the end of the bridge, waving in the wind, also abandoned iirc. In such a large outdoor area it’s entirely possible LE simply used crime scene tape to block off public or private access points.

So I don’t think we know the exact location where the bodies were found. In the media video with RL, the area was flat, no gully or ravine.

Speculations can only be as accurate as the information it’s based upon. As far as LE is concerned, as there were no witnesses to the girls being murdered, informing the public of the exact location may fall into the category of information that’s being withheld. JMO

 

[TL4S]

In such a large outdoor area it’s entirely possible LE simply used crime scene tape to block off public or private access points.

JMO

Snipped for focus.
That's a great point about taping off the access points. There was tape at the trailhead, too, I believe.

 

[Deerrun]

I think it was just because it was an emotional presser for family.
They were just finding out about the 2nd sketch and release of "GUYS" in the audio video.
Family was told about it right before the start of the presser so I think it was meant to just give them time to process this new info.
I mean, look how confused, upset and shocked most of us were after that presser.
I am sure family was feeling what we were feeling, only 1000 x's more.
JMO

Yes, that makes sense, thank you.

 

[No it's not]

I agree that LE has said they were killed where they were found, and I fully believe that. But to my knowledge, LE has never confirmed that the taped-off location south of the cemetery is where they were found. I know this is the assumed location because of RL interviews, media articles/photos, and family leaving flowers; it might well be. I've hesitated a long time to put this on here, but here's what causes conflict in me:

ISP: Delphi Homicide Investigation

On Monday, February 13th, at approximately 1:00 p.m., the two young girls were let off near the Monon High Bridge, an abandoned rail bridge over Deer Creek to walk around and hang out. They were to be picked up later in the afternoon, but did not show up there at the previously arranged time. Following an extensive search, at approximately 12:15 p.m.on February 14, 2017, the bodies of the two girls were found in a wooded area near the Delphi Historic Trail, approximately one-half mile upstream from the bridge.

No matter where I measure from anywhere on the bridge to the location south of the cemetery (as the crow flies, via the flow of the creek, from north, middle, or south end of the bridge), it is nowhere near "one-half mile." It's closer to one-quarter mile or less. I'm marking one measurement on a map, for simplicity, but I've done many others and none work out to one-half. JMO

Holeman said in a interview that the reenactments are wrong and show the public doesn't know the facts (can't find the source).

The article with helicopter footage shows a location on RL property that IS closer to one- half mile. https://www.wrtv.com/news/local-new...07.2145477666.1613826310-536975449.1613826310

All just my own thoughts...

Most of the first news coverages were wrong about the CS location and differed as much as 3/4 of a mile. Some news stations wrongly showed the Freedom Bridge instead of the MHB, some moved the CS West of the cemetery, one moved it way East of the known CS location.

The helicopter video and later the yellow taped off CS photos confirms the known CS IMO. I did not see any other marked CS.

Since you mention Holeman’s comment about the reenactments, BG may have entered the bridge from the SE end and may have passed Abby and Libby already, when he turned around. We don’t know.

“Guys........Down the Hill”, did he address the girls or someone else? We don’t know.

Did BG fall “down the hill” and the girls made a run for it? Or did the girls or one of them equally got injured, when going “down the hill”? We don’t know.

Brings me to my own questions..why did BG settle to attack Abby and Libby and not anyone else? What tripped his interest? What was his intention for that particular day?

It was the day before Valentines’. A Monday. Afternoon. Why not earlier in the day? Was he already at the park in the morning? At noon? The day before? Sunday is a good day for anyone to go to the park. How about Saturday? A good day as well. Then why on a Monday? Snow Day? We just passed the weekend of 2 good days. BG chose Monday, why? Less visitors/ teenagers than over the weekend? Or the opposite? Was he working over the weekend? Traveling? Or is he working during the week?
Pretty sure the meat plant and all videos were scrutinized.

How about the “great amount of evidence...but not what you think..” according to the former prosecutor? Did BG bring evidence and left it at the CS? Or did he create it (out of twigs etc.)? Did he “decorate” the CS?

If the timeline was so tight, did he possibly prepare the CS beforehand? Why or why not?

Yes, I am looking for the blueprint, that led to the murders that day..

ALL IMO

-Nin

 

[TheVisual]

I think it was just because it was an emotional presser for family.
They were just finding out about the 2nd sketch and release of "GUYS" in the audio video.
Family was told about it right before the start of the presser so I think it was meant to just give them time to process this new info.
I mean, look how confused, upset and shocked most of us were after that presser.
I am sure family was feeling what we were feeling, only 1000 x's more.
JMO

Imagine the shock of seeing the new picture of BG(which LE had been holding on to for two years. Patty's had been putting out flyers for two years of OBG.( and many others contributing to the effort) I would have been PO'D royally if I had gotten that info at the presser. There would have been mayhem in that room from THEM!!!! So maybe that is why LE gave them the change before the presser. JMO

 

[photographer4]

Most of the first news coverages were wrong about the CS location and differed as much as 3/4 of a mile. Some news stations wrongly showed the Freedom Bridge instead of the MHB, some moved the CS West of the cemetery, one moved it way East of the known CS location.

The helicopter video and later the yellow taped off CS photos confirms the known CS IMO. I did not see any other marked CS.

Since you mention Holeman’s comment about the reenactments, BG may have entered the bridge from the SE end and may have passed Abby and Libby already, when he turned around. We don’t know.

“Guys........Down the Hill”, did he address the girls or someone else? We don’t know.

Did BG fall “down the hill” and the girls made a run for it? Or did the girls or one of them equally got injured, when going “down the hill”? We don’t know.

Brings me to my own questions..why did BG settle to attack Abby and Libby and not anyone else? What tripped his interest? What was his intention for that particular day?

It was the day before Valentines’. A Monday. Afternoon. Why not earlier in the day? Was he already at the park in the morning? At noon? The day before? Sunday is a good day for anyone to go to the park. How about Saturday? A good day as well. Then why on a Monday? Snow Day? We just passed the weekend of 2 good days. BG chose Monday, why? Less visitors/ teenagers than over the weekend? Or the opposite? Was he working over the weekend? Traveling? Or is he working during the week?
Pretty sure the meat plant and all videos were scrutinized.

How about the “great amount of evidence...but not what you think..” according to the former prosecutor? Did BG bring evidence and left it at the CS? Or did he create it (out of twigs etc.)? Did he “decorate” the CS?

If the timeline was so tight, did he possibly prepare the CS beforehand? Why or why not?

Yes, I am looking for the blueprint, that led to the murders that day..

ALL IMO

-Nin

I'm right there with you on wondering what the actual events were that day! I'm not convinced he parked at the cemetery at all. I'd like to know where he arrived and how he approached the kids. I kinda feel like he was on the south side already and heard / saw them coming and noticed they had no adults with them. Did he hide in a deer blind maybe? I don't know. Is it possible he didn't just walk away from the scene immediately after the murders? Maybe he stayed in a deer blind and cleaned up? Changed clothes? Washed up in the creek? No idea. I know the simplest explanation usually ends up the most correct one, and a lot of the theories I've come up with seem just too complicated at times. What if he was just there (for whatever reason) and decided this day, these kids...??

 

[MistyWaters]

Snipped for focus.
That's a great point about taping off the access points. There was tape at the trailhead, too, I believe.

Another thing, I’m certain LE always stake the ground with evidence markers to identify specific evidentiary areas of interest. So it’s clear when RL took the reporter to the bottom portion of his land LE had already concluded their investigation and were long gone. As RL pointed out, the area was pristine, nothing looked out of the ordinary including the fallen autumn leaves. Neither did he claim he’d observed anything specific while the investigation was underway. It seemed to me it was solely the existence of the crime scene tape which piqued his motivation in showing it to a reporter.

On the other hand if a crime is committed inside a building usually the entire parameter including front lawn right up to the sidewalk is surrounded by crime scene tape. I don’t think people assume the crime occurred immediately behind the tape, could’ve been anywhere inside the building too. In that example crime scene tape is indeed used to prevent unauthorized access, which is why I’m thinking it might’ve been similarly staked to prevent access in this case as well.

So yes, that’s why I’m sort of sceptical the bodies were found exactly where we think they were....aside from the fact I always like to question “facts” that we assume we know, especially when LE isn’t the direct source. The contradictory distance to the crime scene stated by LE, which you noted earlier, is yet another additional factor.

 

[MistyWaters]

Imagine the shock of seeing the new picture of BG(which LE had been holding on to for two years. Patty's had been putting out flyers for two years of OBG.( and many others contributing to the effort) I would have been PO'D royally if I had gotten that info at the presser. There would have been mayhem in that room from THEM!!!! So maybe that is why LE gave them the change before the presser. JMO

I agree. I thought it was very considerate of LE to give the families some space. Last thing they needed was a gaggle of reporters hounding them for comments. The families have done well commenting through the media and I notice it’s always on their terms....they decide when they make themselves available, the way it should be IMO.

 

[minazoe]

No snark intended but, I don't get why it makes a difference if he hid in a deer blind or flew in on a space ship...it doesn't really matter if he left through the cemetery or he traveled through time. Whether he chased the girls or they dragged each other through the woods. it all leads to the same sad conclusion.

what would we discover? how does it help us? making assumptions and imagining all of the ways the girls could have died is fantasy.

we have no facts. except the most basic information.

we have to focus on the BG ..LE says the girls were murdered by the man in video. He was seen in the park by other people

the girls were murdered in a short space of time and the police may already know how he exited the park...it is my understanding that police think BG left the park through the woods...
all other details are up in the air.

LE definitely knows the manner of death and have a great deal of information from the crime scene. For all we know he could have walked through the woods and to his house without ever stepping foot in a vehicle.

maybe he lives near Abby's house.. mOO

 

[MistyWaters]

No snark intended but, I don't get why it makes a difference if he hid in a deer blind or flew in on a space ship...it doesn't really matter if he left through the cemetery or he traveled through time. Whether he chased the girls or they dragged each other through the woods. it all leads to the same sad conclusion.

what would we discover? how does it help us? making assumptions and imagining all of the ways the girls could have died is fantasy.

we have no facts. except the most basic information.

we have to focus on the BG ..LE says the girls were murdered by the man in video. He was seen in the park by other people

the girls were murdered in a short space of time and the police may already know how he exited the park...it is my understanding that police think BG left the park through the woods...
all other details are up in the air.

LE definitely knows the manner of death and have a great deal of information from the crime scene. For all we know he could have walked through the woods and to his house without ever stepping foot in a vehicle.

maybe he lives near Abby's house.. mOO

You’re right, it doesn’t matter at all. When an arrest is made it won’t be required that a beginning-to-end story be proven - only that the accused was responsible for committing the murders beyond reasonable doubt. Much of the before and after scenario may never be known for sure, even if LE have a theory, unless the killer confesses in specific detail....which is doubtful.

One aspect of true crime I always remind myself about ....it’s unlike a fiction book or murder mystery movie when, by the end, everything just seems to come together. Even after a true crime conviction, many unanswered questions often remain.

 

[photographer4]

No snark intended but, I don't get why it makes a difference if he hid in a deer blind or flew in on a space ship...it doesn't really matter if he left through the cemetery or he traveled through time. Whether he chased the girls or they dragged each other through the woods. it all leads to the same sad conclusion.

what would we discover? how does it help us? making assumptions and imagining all of the ways the girls could have died is fantasy.

we have no facts. except the most basic information.

we have to focus on the BG ..LE says the girls were murdered by the man in video. He was seen in the park by other people

the girls were murdered in a short space of time and the police may already know how he exited the park...it is my understanding that police think BG left the park through the woods...
all other details are up in the air.

LE definitely knows the manner of death and have a great deal of information from the crime scene. For all we know he could have walked through the woods and to his house without ever stepping foot in a vehicle.

maybe he lives near Abby's house.. mOO

I hear what you're saying, I do, but at the same time, for me, I'm interested to know if he hid in a deer blind, and which way he entered and exited the scene. Knowing even small pieces, if LE confirmed or debunked them... might help *someone* to identify this guy! EG someone might know X owns a deerblind and its been missing presumed stolen since around 2017.... that might just be the small thing police need tipped in.

We don't know what they need, because they won't tell us. It seems, at times, counterproductive to me that they provide so little info / detail and then expect people to know something helpful. It seems they make a lot more work for themselves with people making guesses, and tipping things in that probably have nothing to do with the case at all.

 

[Blanche]

Another thing, I’m certain LE always stake the ground with evidence markers to identify specific evidentiary areas of interest. So it’s clear when RL took the reporter to the bottom portion of his land LE had already concluded their investigation and were long gone. As RL pointed out, the area was pristine, nothing looked out of the ordinary including the fallen autumn leaves. Neither did he claim he’d observed anything specific while the investigation was underway. It seemed to me it was solely the existence of the crime scene tape which piqued his motivation in showing it to a reporter.

On the other hand if a crime is committed inside a building usually the entire parameter including front lawn right up to the sidewalk is surrounded by crime scene tape. I don’t think people assume the crime occurred immediately behind the tape, could’ve been anywhere inside the building too. In that example crime scene tape is indeed used to prevent unauthorized access, which is why I’m thinking it might’ve been similarly staked to prevent access in this case as well.

So yes, that’s why I’m sort of sceptical the bodies were found exactly where we think they were....aside from the fact I always like to question “facts” that we assume we know, especially when LE isn’t the direct source. The contradictory distance to the crime scene stated by LE, which you noted earlier, is yet another additional factor.

I was thinking of that description of the crime scene looking "pristine" no blood observed , could this mean the girls were strangled? BG used a gun to threaten them to walk to that spot where he killed them? tied one up while he killed the other ? horrific thought but JMO could be a possibility?