Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #132

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I am not familiar with the geography of delphi and I know little about the case I admit except for the short piece they do on the news. I do overthink things but I have seen images of a viaduct thus what got me wondering about tracks. It's not the 1st time I wondered about tracks and criminal tho. I did not know they are not in use so my theory is likely flawed.. but if it's a path then it's still a safe passage for someone who is off the grid passing thru just the same?? Maybe? Idk was just throwing it out there to those more familar. Still worth check it out imo since so long w/o any leads panning out that we know of. Not sure how much manpower LE have after 4 yrs. Thanks for the welcome and I reckon THIS is my tip line if I was to have one. Not a tip just a wonder tho. :) Thx
 
I am not familiar with the geography of delphi and I know little about the case I admit except for the short piece they do on the news. I do overthink things but I have seen images of a viaduct thus what got me wondering about tracks. It's not the 1st time I wondered about tracks and criminal tho. I did not know they are not in use so my theory is likely flawed.. but if it's a path then it's still a safe passage for someone who is off the grid passing thru just the same?? Maybe? Idk was just throwing it out there to those more familar. Still worth check it out imo since so long w/o any leads panning out that we know of. Not sure how much manpower LE have after 4 yrs. Thanks for the welcome and I reckon THIS is my tip line if I was to have one. Not a tip just a wonder tho. :) Thx

No worries.

You mentioned a question about how much manpower there is in this case after 4 years and luckily, we recently learned about that. The sheriff of Carroll County addressed this recently in the local newspaper:

Q. Is there still a team of investigators? How many comprise that team and how often do they meet?

A. Yes. Two county detectives, two ISP detectives, and from time to time, outside detectives from other police agencies, including the FBI. A portion of the team meets almost daily but with technology, meetings are not always “in person.” Obviously with COVID, some meetings have been by Zoom.

Q. How much time is spent each week in investigating? A. At minimum, 40 hours. But depending on what is being followed into, it obviously can be more.

Source: County Sheriff answers double homicide questions from readers | Carroll County Comet
 
Random thought about the psychology and efficacy of big rewards:

If someone very close to BG has the tip that will lead to an arrest, and if they are eligible to receive the large monetary award...

Can that money be used to purchase the best defense team possible?

Along the same lines, "advertising" that such a large reward could be used to buy the best defense for BG might be an avenue to explore.

Imo
 
Random thought about the psychology and efficacy of big rewards:

If someone very close to BG has the tip that will lead to an arrest, and if they are eligible to receive the large monetary award...

Can that money be used to purchase the best defense team possible?

Along the same lines, "advertising" that such a large reward could be used to buy the best defense for BG might be an avenue to explore.

Imo

I see what you are saying but I think the key is in what you wrote "if they are eligible to receive the award," being so close to BG.

If the reward in the Delphi case is like a typical Crime Stoppers reward, then there are likely terms and exclusions that limit who can get the reward even if the tip leads to an arrest or prosecution. One caveat is, if what you know - your tip - cannot be verified without police knowing your identity, you may be ineligible.

Here are some of the exclusions from a Crime Stoppers site just as a reference for how things are usually handled:

Who is NOT Eligible to Receive a Reward Payment

  • Victims of crimes
  • Witnesses of crimes who have either identified themselves or been identified by law enforcement or the media as a Crime Stoppers tipster before a reward is paid to that person.
  • Tipsters who identify themselves in any way, even to law enforcement, either before or after providing a tip to Crime Stoppers, but before receiving their reward.
  • The person or persons who committed or were otherwise involved in the planning or commission of the crime or, at anytime, harbored or concealed the person(s) responsible.
And:

If the tipster witnessed a crime and contacts Crime Stoppers of Wichita-Sedgwick County with information about the crime, it is possible that person may or may not be eligible for a reward. This is because Crime Stoppers of Wichita-Sedgwick County may not be able to protect the tipster’s anonymity. As a witness to a crime, if the tipster is identified by law enforcement or the media as a Crime Stoppers tipster before a reward is paid to that person, that person will not be eligible for a reward.

This info came from here: https://www.wichitasedgwickcountycrimestoppers.com/reward-guidelines
Which is not affiliated with Carroll County but their policies are likely to be similar.

All this is to say, LE could put information out (accurate or not) that the funds could be used in that manner but the tipster would be unlikely to get very far in the process before finding out they might not be eligible.
 
Random thought about the psychology and efficacy of big rewards:

If someone very close to BG has the tip that will lead to an arrest, and if they are eligible to receive the large monetary award...

Can that money be used to purchase the best defense team possible?

Along the same lines, "advertising" that such a large reward could be used to buy the best defense for BG might be an avenue to explore.

Imo

The reward money isn't paid out until there is an arrest AND conviction. So no. It won't go towards someone's defence. Perhaps to an appeal if one is granted? But I'm unsure how long they wait to pay a reward out following conviction? Perhaps they wait until after the appeal period has passed?
Reward for information on Delphi murders increased to $325,000.
 
I just hope he is not out hunting again for his next victims.

i would wonder how much COVID has limited his possibility.

Imagine he has a house, somewhere in IN/northern IL/MN. And travels on weekends to some exhibitions.

Once I tracked, annually, certain exhibitions that would cover the whole country. In my state alone, it would happen 3x per year. My favorite company lived in CA, but they are more like gypsies. They had a website, too, but mostly sold on West Coast shows + certain central states.

I doubt that that me was into serial crimes, but if the owner said to his employees “I need to meet an old friend” and disappeared for the whole day, no one would pay attention to it, they’d just take over.

So i noticed fairs next to Delphi. What were they selling there? Farm equipment? Farm animals? Guns? Knives? What about jewelry, it attracts lots of women?

If someone has a successful expo-related business that allows him to travel on weekends, and a team, he can disappear for a few hours, and none the wiser. He can even take the “weapon” that has been just touched by several people at the exposition (a knife?), so god knows whose DNA is there.

I wonder if this is the case of the Delphi killer. He could be a very SK, but the reason they, as Rob Ives has said, never zoomed on any specific person, is that the person is traveling. He may be local, but I doubt, I think he is coming to the area with his expos. If they think that Delphi and IA murders have a similarity, maybe we should check if the same expo was running around at the time. If they think TX case is similar, same. I have zero ideas about farm life, was surprised that they had shows, even, but maybe someone does?

Or perhaps he, indeed, reasonably local and returned that Monday. Look at what other places he travels to for shows, and if someone disappeared in the vicinity. I am remembering that murder of a mom and a daughter in IN, also unsolved.

And it is COVID now. All shows are closed. So things are more difficult.
 
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i would wonder how much COVID has limited his possibility.

Imagine he has a house, somewhere in IN/northern IL/MN. And travels on weekends to some exhibitions.

Once I tracked, annually, certain exhibitions that would cover the whole country. In my state alone, it would happen 3x per year. My favorite company lived in CA, but they are more like gypsies. They had a website, too, but mostly sold on West Coast shows + certain central states.

I doubt that that me was into serial crimes, but if the owner said to his employees “I need to meet an old friend” and disappeared for the whole day, no one would pay attention to it, they’d just take over.

So i noticed fairs next to Delphi. What were they selling there? Farm equipment? Farm animals? Guns? Knives?

If someone has a successful expo-related business that allows him to travel on weekends, and a team, he can disappear for a few hours, and none the wiser. He can even take the “weapon” that has been just touched by several people at the exposition (a knife?), so god knows whose DNA is there.

I wonder if this is the case of the Delphi killer. He could be a very SK, but the reason they, as Rob Ives has said, never zoomed on any specific person, is that the person is traveling. He may be local, but I doubt, I think he is coming to the area with his expos. If they think that Delphi and IA murders have a similarity, maybe we should check if the same expo was running around at the time. If they think TX case is similar, same. I have zero ideas about farm life, was surprised that they had shows, even, but maybe someone does?

Or perhaps he, indeed, reasonably local and returned that Monday. Look at what other places he travels to for shows, and if someone disappeared in the vicinity. I am remembering that murder of a mom and a daughter in IN, also unsolved.

And it is COVID now. All shows are closed. So things are more difficult.
I also see a flip side to that part. One, with a mask being required in most places he is less likely to recognized by those who don't know him. Two, while many of the above have been closed, individual outdoor activities have drastically increased. When it isn't raining I've seen walkers out on the streets and sidewalks at a time of the day when I normally wouldn't see them. Folks who are working via internet from home and walking during a meal break? Don't know but they're there. The sport I love and participate in, cycling, has taken a DRASTIC change! I see more folks riding bikes in the first 2-3 miles of one of my 20-40 mile rides in one day than I would usually see in an entire ride or even a week. I know of at least two bike shops last spring and summer that had to stop taking repairs/overhauls of old bikes for a month to six weeks because a massive repair backlog and one bike shop franchise that had to close one location due to lack of inventory. Three, with folks working from home they are not showing up in a workplace, so does this lengthen the amount of time between when a person is being abducted/murdered and when they are reported missing?

I can see with more people out on trails and roads walking or jogging there might be more witnesses, but it also might mean there are more opportunities and at times we wouldn't have pre-Covid.

What Covid has taken away in some respects, might have given this killer opportunity where he didn't have it before. Which leads me to my final thought on the matter. If this guy has killed again, have the changes imposed by Covid caused him to radically evolve? Change his MO? Change his choice of victims? Change the places where he goes after his victims - i.e., in an isolated home instead of a trail? If that has happened it is harder for LE to make the connection.
 
I ran across this today. It's old news, but I had forgotten about it. I think this not only speaks highly of JH, but should serve to reassure us of the quality LE personnel involved in this case.
JMO

Delphi homicide case manager graduates from FBI National Academy

Indiana State Police First Sgt. Jerry Holeman graduated from the 270th session of the FBI National Academy Program.
..........
He spent 11 weeks in Quantico, Virginia at the elite program. Less than one percent of U.S. law enforcement officers are selected.
 
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The link below shows the highest historic crest was 19+ feet. Does that mean the areas under the flood zone line are under 19' high?

As a side note, I think I found the water gauge. If that's it, does someone have to physically read it or is the info transmitted?
National Weather Service Advanced Hydrologic Prediction Service

View attachment 291696

I think the answer to your question is no, the area one sees on say, a FEMA flood zone map has more to do with probability of a once in a one hundred years flood happening in that zone.

Having once been an elected official for 7+ years, I am somewhat versed in subdivision, land development, and other related things. Though I don't know the source of data that produced the flood zone maps posted in this thread, I can say that they are often estimates and not accurate in any sense of the word.

I've seen 'official' flood zone maps that are simply random numbers, say a line 100 feet from the center of a stream. In every case of development I ever came across, it was prudent to ignore the 'official' map, and hire a surveyor/engineer experienced in accurate determination of 100 year floodplain maps so as to be certain folks weren't encroaching upon, and/or subsequently suffering damage down the road, from flooding.
 
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I'm looking at old stuff today, but it's still interesting. Here's JH's 2018 CrimeCon description of how the first sketch came about:

Delphi Murders CrimeCon Interview Transcript - CrimeLights

SGT. HOLEMAN: You can ask the tough questions, I’ll answer them. Again, it takes a lot of time. I’m not a sketch artist. The FBI actually–an agent from the FBI–did the sketch. And you know, I think when somebody sketches it takes like, 10 minutes [shakes head ‘no’]. It takes several weeks. But to get the information, to find the people that we believe saw that person that day near the time of the murders, that takes months. So we had to locate these people, interview them, find out who they really saw. Did they really see the guy on the bridge from the video, or did they see Mike out there helping search, or did they see somebody else out there helping with the search? So we had to identify those people, and once we felt like we identified the people that actually saw the guy on the bridge, then the sketch itself took, again, several weeks. They sketched it, looked at it, “No…that’s not correct”. I will say that she still–[Clarification note: he quickly corrects his use of ‘she’ to ‘they’]—they, there’s a couple people— still aren’t convinced that’s the proper hat, but that’s the hat that the sketch artist could come up with as close to what the witnesses were describing. And I know the Superintendent [Doug Carter] said “Don’t focus on the sketch”, and we got a lot of calls on that. I think what he meant to say was…you know, where there’s four or five of us up here right now and if we pick somebody out of room right now and identify them to a sketch artist, there would be five different sketches. They’d have the similar features, as we believe this sketch has of the guy on the bridge, but they’d be a little different. So I think that what he meant is the person that did this heinous crime may not exactly look like that sketch. That’s what the person’s information and then the sketch artist had to take that information in and then put it on paper. So it’s not always going to be perfect, but we think that’s a really good sketch, and we think it’s really close to the person that we’re looking for on the bridge.
 
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From the same CrimeCon interview above. Maybe this answers our questions about whether they have other surveillance, at least as of 2018?

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD: Sergeant? How about surveillance?

SGT. HOLEMAN: There wasn’t necessarily surveillance videos on the trail, but we did get some from local businesses. I know that was a rule, and also trail-cams, I don’t know, deer hunters? So, we have that.

AUDIENCE MEMBER #3: Was there anything more than what the—

SGT. HOLEMAN: —no.
 
i would wonder how much COVID has limited his possibility.

Imagine he has a house, somewhere in IN/northern IL/MN. And travels on weekends to some exhibitions.

Once I tracked, annually, certain exhibitions that would cover the whole country. In my state alone, it would happen 3x per year. My favorite company lived in CA, but they are more like gypsies. They had a website, too, but mostly sold on West Coast shows + certain central states.

I doubt that that me was into serial crimes, but if the owner said to his employees “I need to meet an old friend” and disappeared for the whole day, no one would pay attention to it, they’d just take over.

So i noticed fairs next to Delphi. What were they selling there? Farm equipment? Farm animals? Guns? Knives? What about jewelry, it attracts lots of women?

If someone has a successful expo-related business that allows him to travel on weekends, and a team, he can disappear for a few hours, and none the wiser. He can even take the “weapon” that has been just touched by several people at the exposition (a knife?), so god knows whose DNA is there.

I wonder if this is the case of the Delphi killer. He could be a very SK, but the reason they, as Rob Ives has said, never zoomed on any specific person, is that the person is traveling. He may be local, but I doubt, I think he is coming to the area with his expos. If they think that Delphi and IA murders have a similarity, maybe we should check if the same expo was running around at the time. If they think TX case is similar, same. I have zero ideas about farm life, was surprised that they had shows, even, but maybe someone does?

Or perhaps he, indeed, reasonably local and returned that Monday. Look at what other places he travels to for shows, and if someone disappeared in the vicinity. I am remembering that murder of a mom and a daughter in IN, also unsolved.

And it is COVID now. All shows are closed. So things are more difficult.
I also see a flip side to that part. One, with a mask being required in most places he is less likely to recognized by those who don't know him. Two, while many of the above have been closed, individual outdoor activities have drastically increased. When it isn't raining I've seen walkers out on the streets and sidewalks at a time of the day when I normally wouldn't see them. Folks who are working via internet from home and walking during a meal break? Don't know but they're there. The sport I love and participate in, cycling, has taken a DRASTIC change! I see more folks riding bikes in the first 2-3 miles of one of my 20-40 mile rides in one day than I would usually see in an entire ride or even a week. I know of at least two bike shops last spring and summer that had to stop taking repairs/overhauls of old bikes for a month to six weeks because a massive repair backlog and one bike shop franchise that had to close one location due to lack of inventory. Three, with folks working from home they are not showing up in a workplace, so does this lengthen the amount of time between when a person is being abducted/murdered and when they are reported missing?

I can see with more people out on trails and roads walking or jogging there might be more witnesses, but it also might mean there are more opportunities and at times we wouldn't have pre-Covid.

What Covid has taken away in some respects, might have given this killer opportunity where he didn't have it before. Which leads me to my final thought on the matter. If this guy has killed again, have the changes imposed by Covid caused him to radically evolve? Change his MO? Change his choice of victims? Change the places where he goes after his victims - i.e., in an isolated home instead of a trail? If that has happened it is harder for LE to make the connection.

First sorry for a mistake in my post. I wanted to say that the company I bought from, I am positive, did not harvest SKs ))).

But the more I think, the more I doubt he'd live in Delphi, because with the shows, it would make no sense. However, shows happen on weekends, so do lots of hikings, so it should be sort of a weekend killer. They would arrive to the place on Thursday evening, and leave on Sunday evening.

Not enough time to get familiar with the place during one show, but if they happen regularly, then, of course, he'd know everything around, including the terrain.

I wonder if there are several show killers in the country. I read that TB worked at suicide hotlines because some desperate women would call, so he'd search for potential victims there.

I wonder if "city shows" attracting many women would be one type, and "farm shows", something different.

This type of a killer would be married, probably, twice, a professional with a reputation in his area, a big-time drinker, and with the reputation of a "... hunter". Sort of, if he hits on a woman, it would be unsurprising. (And no one would think of him, because he has women, has affairs, is not an incel).

He could say, "Guys, I take off, I met a friend in the city", and no one would ask.

Now about your post, @JnRyan. I think that with COVID-19, lots of people are sitting at their computers and daydreaming, and what about, God knows. With the relaxation of the conditions, one might see a certain change.
 
It makes much more sense to me now, this entire crime - he wanted them to cross that creek because he knew if people came looking for them, they'd be along the bridge and surrounding south side. <snip>Would a 4 wheeler be super out of place there? I doubt it. https://www.wrtv.com/news/local-new...8.1004005404.1617656828-1428086888.1617656828

While I cannot answer whether or not 4 wheelers would seem out of place, I doubt they're routinely allowed on the trail system but I seem to recall 4 wheelers were used by some searchers the evening of the 13th.

Opposed to a noisy 4 wheeler, I've wondered about a kayak as being a quiet means of escape. Deer Creek is a deep gully with rather steep sides at times with homes perched high above it. In places, it becomes shallow as a puddle or a ditch in places sprinkled with small islands jutting sometimes all the way across and ankle deep.

The lead for looking into those who show their animals may be useful. In the Missy Bevers murder, her daughter raised a pig then fairly recently sold him at a TX auction for $10,000 which she donated to aid in the search for her mom's killer.

Has anyone wondered if BG resided along the Creek on the day in question? And, perhaps the Creek was also in his backyard. Perhaps he walked home or possessed a watercraft anchored along the Creek's shoreline meant for a quick getaway?

Wonder if BG was in a rift with one of the seekers of treasures (diamonds, gold) among the rocks from Deer Creek from years gone by? Is there another fatality associated with Deer Creek? It could be inconsequential.

In those early days of the case, years ago, we had a video of the annual hunt for gold that's held in the bed of Deer Creek. btw, I didn't manage to locate.
Carroll County (from a 2012 blog)
Silver has been found on the North Bank of the Wabash River in this county.
A lost silver mine is supposed to be about 20 miles above Fort Ouiatenon (a former French trading post in W Lafayette) on the East side of the Wabash River that the French worked until 1763
Gold has been found in the bed of Deer Creek East of Delphi

I believe BG is operating in plain sight, as LE told us. His life goes on. No one suspects him. After all he attends church and is a pillar of the community.
JMHOO
 
I also see a flip side to that part. One, with a mask being required in most places he is less likely to recognized by those who don't know him. Two, while many of the above have been closed, individual outdoor activities have drastically increased. When it isn't raining I've seen walkers out on the streets and sidewalks at a time of the day when I normally wouldn't see them. Folks who are working via internet from home and walking during a meal break? Don't know but they're there. The sport I love and participate in, cycling, has taken a DRASTIC change! I see more folks riding bikes in the first 2-3 miles of one of my 20-40 mile rides in one day than I would usually see in an entire ride or even a week. I know of at least two bike shops last spring and summer that had to stop taking repairs/overhauls of old bikes for a month to six weeks because a massive repair backlog and one bike shop franchise that had to close one location due to lack of inventory. Three, with folks working from home they are not showing up in a workplace, so does this lengthen the amount of time between when a person is being abducted/murdered and when they are reported missing?

I can see with more people out on trails and roads walking or jogging there might be more witnesses, but it also might mean there are more opportunities and at times we wouldn't have pre-Covid.

What Covid has taken away in some respects, might have given this killer opportunity where he didn't have it before. Which leads me to my final thought on the matter. If this guy has killed again, have the changes imposed by Covid caused him to radically evolve? Change his MO? Change his choice of victims? Change the places where he goes after his victims - i.e., in an isolated home instead of a trail? If that has happened it is harder for LE to make the connection.
If this guy has killed again, have the changes imposed by Covid caused him to radically evolve? Change his MO? Change his choice of victims? Change the places where he goes after his victims - i.e., in an isolated home instead of a trail?

Covid has given every no good doer a reason to hide their face, unfortunately.

I stand with this horrendous act of violent murder against two young innocent girls being a one time only event for BG. JMOHO

Nothing is so brazen as this MO style outdoor homicides during daylight hours of two precious young children. I sincerely feel the killer is sweating this one being caught and is immobile, frozen with fear until he knows he's gotten away free and clear.

Ask oneself: Why did the attack happen to those who were younger than BG? It is pedophilic behavior.

Why's that, the victims being underage, it's part of the motive, MO? What in his life caused the need for a heinous and horrific pedophilic attack, to brutally and without conscience fatally harm these two young children? What had him fuming about innocent youths so much so that BG was triggered into acting out a vile retribution, perhaps?

The ages of the victims was crucial to BG. That it was more than one underage victim was even better for, after all, his soul must have been scarred by recent events in life.

The fear of being caught is omnipresent. He knows the law is so close. At any minute, they could arrest him while he's purchasing a soda at the 7/11 or while standing in line at the post office, or elsewhere.

Guilt over their murders is eating away at him because he realizes life still isn't fair.

This doesn't equate to BG possessing a conscience or that he cares one bit about Abby or Libby, sadly enough, but rather it's that he does NOT want to be found out and he does NOT want to be caught and does NOT want to be arrested and thrown in jail with a couple of black eyes, I presume.
 
watching the clip for the 90 thousandth time.

..I really have the impression that every step closer he gets is like a victory to him, every step he makes closer he is closer to his goal, this is thrilling as he realizes he is going to be successful and nothing is stopping him...he is now turning into a blackened heart and what ever he is in his day to day life takes a back seat.

he is an adept bully and is known as one especially growing up...he abuses other kids and animals as a way of showing off and thinks it's funny..he also likes to get you alone and hurt you..and will make sure you don't tell. he has a weird sense of humor and is inappropriate
or 'off'

now that he's grown up so have his hobbies...I know this though, a serial killer doesn't want to be seen on camera, does not want to appear in a video that is broadcast all over the world.
this definitely puts him in a place he wasn't planning on.

is he a rehab drifter type? I don't think so because I think he planned and recorded the whole thing and I think he has a lair he goes back to . Does it include a family? or is he one of those loners from the bar? he could be divorced from a high school sweetheart.

something like 80% of child murders are committed by someone related to or known by the child.

just thoughts.

mOO
 
watching the clip for the 90 thousandth time.


something like 80% of child murders are committed by someone related to or known by the child.

just thoughts.

mOO

RSBM.

Not sure where your statistic comes from but it may be true of the overall category of child murders in general. However, when children are verified to have encountered their eventual murderer out in a public area and the crime included abduction, which is the case with Delphi, the statistics are quite different than what you've stated. About 45% of these killers were strangers to the child and about 44% were "acquaintances" (a category which includes situations where the child did not know the person but the person knew some vague facts about the child, like that they lived close by). Less than 10% of these murders were committed by a family member or "intimate" (which includes other people residing in the same home as the victim). These statistics come from the Keppel & Brown child abduction/murder study (updated 2012).
 
Snipped.

Quoting a statistic like that is misleading because ALL of the evidence in this PARTICULAR case points to its falling into the other 20%.

oh yes I guess, I shouldn't have thrown it out..I don't believe they know him or that he is related to them.. but I think that they could be known to him, that he knows who they are...or he could be an associate of people known to the girls.

and because of evansdale and the uncanny similarities of the victims, I question how random this crime actually is...

just to clarify. mOO
 
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