Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #132

Discussion in 'Located Persons Discussion' started by Tricia, Apr 22, 2019.

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  1. wonderllama

    wonderllama Registered Snoozer

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    This is kind of the struggle I deal with here on WS. We each have our views but there's nothing being put on the line, so if we're wrong (and we usually are!), it doesn't matter...we were "just trying to help". There's pretty much always an excellent reason for us not knowing all the information and that makes us frustrated.

    I know I am!!!
     


  2. ScumbagTrav

    ScumbagTrav Well-Known Member

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    And crimecon.
     
  3. Yemelyan

    Yemelyan Well-Known Member

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    BBM....

    Yes. When authorities hold things close to the vest and they happen to catch the offender quickly, we praise them for their restraint. When the case goes on for what we the public consider "too long" we get agitated. The reasons for keeping the information private remain the same, however.
     
  4. MistyWaters

    MistyWaters Well-Known Member

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    I thought this was a great way to explain why LE doesn’t publicly release more information. It’s all about catching the killer.

    Police remind the public that investigators have access to tools that the public does not. Investigations are private, so the person who is responsible for killing Abby and Libby doesn’t know what police know.

    Often times people think that what they see on a tv show is real life, and that’s just not the case,” Perrine said....”


    Police warn of dangers of online sleuthing to solve Delphi murders | WTTV CBS4Indy
     
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  5. Boxer

    Boxer Well-Known Member

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    But...
    I would cross reference all motorcycle owning ex employees of the Indiana Packers or other industry in the area with having a criminal record of burglary.
    Assessing the house so accurately and confidently seems professional.
     
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  6. everybodhi

    everybodhi Well-Known Member

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    5 mile radius covers a lot of Delphi.
    I think this is why they lean towards BG being local, as they said, “someone who has probably been interviewed”. Someone who slipped through the cracks, not suspected for whatever reason. Maybe most, or all, phones in the radius were local in that window of time. Maybe any out of towners were cleared through some process of elimination.
    Of course, there’s always the possibility he didn’t bring a phone.
    If I were an opportunistic murderer on the hunt, I wouldn’t carry a phone. But maybe it happened without that much forethought, maybe a local who just stumbled on an opportunity.
     
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  7. sunshineray

    sunshineray Well-Known Member

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    There was a podcast that had three retired FBI Special Agents who all seemed to think a "lair" had been set up by the killer. It was discussed because the crime scene he brought them to was secluded, not easily seen from the bridge area and was on private property away from hikers.
     
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  8. Yemelyan

    Yemelyan Well-Known Member

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    I don't disagree that the hosts of that podcast offered the possibility that the Delphi killer pre-selected a "lair."

    However, that's not the definition of "staging," though, that FBI agents would know and use as it applies to a scene. Staging doesn't mean "pre-arranging, "stocking," or "preparing" a place in advance with tools, implements, or supplies in order to perpetrate a crime. It does not mean choosing a site in advance.

    In current professional literature there are varying definitions of staging. Geberth (Practical Homicide Investigation, 4th ed) says, “Staging is a conscious criminal action on the part of an offender to thwart an investigation. ”

    The Crime Classification Manual defines staging as, “Someone
    purposely alters the crime scene prior to the arrival of police. There are two reasons that someone
    employs staging: to redirect the investigation away from the most logical suspect or to protect the
    victim or victim’s family.”

    Some criminalists believe, however, that these definitions may be too narrow and recommend dividing staging into three classifications:

    1. Primary staging - alterations done to the crime scene with the purpose of re-directing investigators from the truth. This can be pre-meditated (ex. A wife wants to kill her husband and tries make it look like a suicide) or ad hoc (decision is made on the spur of the moment to mislead investigators - the common example given is, a teenage couple has consensual sex. Afterwards, they realize they may get in trouble if sexual activity is discovered and so they stage a rape that implicates a "stranger").

    2. Secondary staging - offender behaviors that alter the crime scene that are not done to thwart investigators but are a part of fulfilling the offender’s fantasy, or intended
    to shock and offend society, humiliate or degrade the victim. The scene alteration is performative and done strictly for the psychological pleasure of the offender. These are defined as behaviors done at the scene, not objects brought to the scene. A common example would be posing a body sexually post-mortem. Some criminalists, however, do not agree with the inclusion of these acts as "staging" and prefer all of this offender behavior that is done for psychological reasons to be classified in a separate category as "personation" or "signatures."

    3. Tertiary staging takes place when a well-meaning person with no criminal intent comes upon a person who has died in an embarrassing or degrading situation and alters the scene with the intention of sparing the victim or the remaining family from shame. An example of this would be re-dressing or taking away paraphernalia that indicate a person died during an autoerotic asphyxiation event.

    Ives never used the word staging in his interviews, only "signatures." But he himself said he was not an expert on the behavior of serial killers.

    MOO.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2021
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  9. FrostedGlass

    FrostedGlass Well-Known Member

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    The VanSickle property is just west of the Hoosier Heartland Highway and is 2 1/2 acres.
    It's going to be really interesting to see what they do with the bridge. Indiana Landmarks piece of the railway is close to 80' wide and extends 320'+ beyond the S end of the bridge. It appears to cut a pretty big strip through part of the Weber property. So what will they do with the folks who cross a dead-end bridge?

    AwsiDooger found an easier way down the hill on his trip to Delphi and posted pics online. I wonder if it was man-made.
     
  10. MistyWaters

    MistyWaters Well-Known Member

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    If it’s true the owner of the property is a snowbird then they travel away to warmer areas during the winter each and every year. So if it’s true the killer had or has ties to Delphi and was familiar with the bridge/trail area, he may’ve known the owner is a snowbird simply by being connected to the community in some way. Who does what, where and when becomes common knowledge in smaller towns, far different than in cities where we don’t know much of anything about our neighbours.
     
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  11. FrostedGlass

    FrostedGlass Well-Known Member

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    Did the owners have anyone checking on the property while they were gone?
     
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  12. photographer4

    photographer4 Well-Known Member

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    Is it possible that the killer just went to that house after the killing and hid there? In the house / garage perhaps? That would be an easy place to hide (Garage or outbuilding) where no one would likely look for him since they couldn't get permission to search from the property owner (unless someone called them wherever they were and asked and got permission). Did that happen? Does that home there right off the south end of the bridge have an outbuilding or garage where he could have hidden? Did anyone search them?
     
  13. FrostedGlass

    FrostedGlass Well-Known Member

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    IMO, there are a lot of places he could have hidden within walking distance.
     
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  14. MistyWaters

    MistyWaters Well-Known Member

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    I agree. Probably since the word “stage” is associated with a movie set, it’s easy to imagine “staging a crime” involves sort of physical preparation. That’s not necessarily true at all.

    Staging a crime may involve only repositioning of a body so a homicide appears to have been an accidental death. For example killing someone by hitting them over the head but then placing the body near a fallen tree is an example of staging.

    The word “stage” also refers to staging a play, we’re not watching something happen minute by minute - it’s an acting performance. So that a “staged crime” is intended to mislead investigators away from the truth follows that same line of thinking.

    But investigators in this case have never said the crime scene was staged.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2021
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  15. MistyWaters

    MistyWaters Well-Known Member

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    I doubt anybody searched outbuildings at that home looking for a murderer that evening as nobody knew the girls had been murdered not too far from the bridge earlier that afternoon.
     
  16. everybodhi

    everybodhi Well-Known Member

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    I don’t know but I bet they do now.
     
  17. MistyWaters

    MistyWaters Well-Known Member

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    IIRC somewhere buried in these threads it was mentioned a son checked on the property from time to time but neither do I recall the source. It’s probably wise for the owner of the property and other neighbouring property owners nearby to stay away from the media considering the way RL became an immediate online suspect.
     
  18. janewall

    janewall Well-Known Member

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    I too doubt it happened that evening. A search of properties in the area (other than the ones we know about) may have taken place in the subsequent days however – particularly properties known to be vacant. That would be an important resource for the investigation. IF LE obtained a property owner's permission discreetly, could they keep such a search very close to the vest – without the press, and thus the public, learning of it?
     
  19. Yemelyan

    Yemelyan Well-Known Member

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    It's possible that any nearby outbuildings were searched on the night of the 13th as part of the search for the girls (pretty common for LE to request that this type of structure be searched when trying to locate missing persons) but it's unknown. Even if permission was given and searches were conducted that night, no one knew at that time that the girls were murdered, so it's unclear if searchers would have noticed anything consistent with criminal activity since the focus would just have been on finding girls, possibly suffering from the elements or hurt.
     
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  20. TL4S

    TL4S Well-Known Member

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    I wonder if there were any surveillance cameras or alarms at that house.
     
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