Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #132

[Yemelyan]

The "signature aspects" of this crime are even more chilling to me now than they were before I read and processed exactly what they mean. I did have an understanding to a degree- but now, I am quite devastated to know that there were at least THREE signatures left here. That is some dark, disturbing information.
While it is obvious that that this person is as low an individual that society can produce- I cannot fathom how someone is so depraved that they can have so many perverse qualities.
Whether this person has killed before- or since is a frequent topic of conversation- I think it is equally important to realize that he WILL hurt someone again. I feel certain that he has a lack of impulse control in that respect now that he has acted out this horrible reality.
For lack of a better term- I feel "woke" knowing that this level of filth walks among unsuspecting people in everyday life.

AMOO JMO MOO
EBM

I'm glad you wrote this, @Ravenmoon.

If we are going to speculate, we need to use and understand the actual definitions of things like "signatures." It's what will help us understand the kind of person who did this crime.

A lot of times people say "if only we had more information, the public could help...tell us what the signatures were." If you're thinking the signature is something like "he killed them with a certain identifiable knife" then yeah, that makes sense. But if Ives used the term signatures correctly, these three of four signatures aren't likely to be things like the knife example. They are likely to be behaviors that are representative of such dark and disturbing parts of the offender's psyche he may not have shared them with anyone else due to their horrifying or taboo nature. JMO

 

[TL4S]

I'm glad you wrote this, @Ravenmoon.

If we are going to speculate, we need to use and understand the actual definitions of things like "signatures." It's what will help us understand the kind of person who did this crime.

A lot of times people say "if only we had more information, the public could help...tell us what the signatures were." If you're thinking the signature is something like "he killed them with a certain identifiable knife" then yeah, that makes sense. But if Ives used the term signatures correctly, these three of four signatures aren't likely to be things like the knife example. They are likely to be behaviors that are representative of such dark and disturbing parts of the offender's psyche he may not have shared them with anyone else due to their horrifying or taboo nature. JMO

I have wondered, as well, if part of the behaviors Ives called "signatures" weren't referred to as such because they were repeated on both victims?

 

[Boxer]

MOO staging can be done by leaving misleading evidence in the form of a signature.

 

[Yemelyan]

I have wondered, as well, if part of the behaviors Ives called "signatures" weren't referred to as such because they were repeated on both victims?

Not sure. JMO but I think if a behavioral analyst reviewed the crime scene information, they would take into account any and all behaviors committed by the perpetrator, even if it only occurred against one of the victims, not both. The repetition of the act does not define it as a signature, it's more about the fact that it was unnecessary to the completion of the murder and the representation of the offender's inner need or fantasy.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

This is a spectacular example of excellent local journalism, and that is something I think is sorely missing in the Delphi case.

http://californiaregister.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Issue-2-Volume-3.pdf

This is about the Kristen Smart case and I realize the two cases are very different.
Where is the passion though in anything written or reported about Libby and Abby’s case by local journalists? They do nothing but parrot back what LE tells them. They never question anything, they never ever ask a follow-up question.
Just read a few paragraphs of this article and you’ll see the difference. The media does have a roll. Here, they are careful to not reveal information LE doesn’t want revealed, so they are not interfering but the newspaper does investigate on its own. Finds witnesses on its own. Questions and criticizes LE’s actions or inactions as it deems necessary. The media is pushing the case forward. They are pushing LE to do their best. They are true advocates for justice in this case. Where are the advocates in Indiana media for Abby and Libby?
Everybody in this case seems to be sitting and waiting. I wish the California Register would move to Indiana for a year or two.
Just my thoughts.

 

[sunshineray]

Do you know the source of this? I don’t quite get it because if DC, the Superintendent of Indiana State Police, knows a person who knows who the killer is and also is aware that person is living in “excruciating fear”, why is he not offering full protection to that person? IIRC in the past he already committed to doing so.

The source was ISP Carter himself, on camera at the very end of the ID People Magazine: Delphi Murders show recently aired (according to another poster as my cable company has 2016 which is an obvious error).

I'm not saying it's an absolute but to my thinking, it's just how his language and demeanor struck me. He was speaking specifically not generally. AJMO

 

[Yemelyan]

MOO staging can be done by leaving misleading evidence in the form of a signature.

Just a question to see if I understand your point...would an example of what you're talking about be, a person wants to commit a murder for "practical" reasons. Say, the victim knows some damaging information about the offender and that's the motivation for the killing. But the offender knows that this motivation may become obvious to investigators and put suspicion on him. So, after killing his victim, he stages the scene so that it appears the murder was the work of a sexually motivated killer?

Remember that signatures go beyond what was necessary to commit the crime. So it would not be a signature, in this example, to stage the scene by merely leaving the victim unclothed, because that would be a typical part of a sexual assault. So the "stager" is going to have to go farther than that in his faked behaviors. What signature behaviors can he fake? Mutilation? Necrophilia? Bite marks? I guess sexual posing or bondage would be the "easiest" to fake. But most people who don't actually have a deep seated fantasy of carrying out these acts would have a very hard time, IMO, faking them, because you still have to intimately handle a dead body. People who don't kill for the sadistic pleasure of it, but for utilitarian reasons, leave a completely different kind of crime scene. IMO there would be red flags for the investigation that a staging of these acts had occurred.

Now, if you're thinking that a signature is something like "leaving a deck of cards at the scene," then yes, I can see why you'd think that would be an easy "signature" to stage. But that's the kind of thing that occurs in books and movies, not what is typically seen at crime scenes. JMO

I think with the FBI's eyes on this from the beginning - we know that behavioral analysts were involved immediately according to the interview with FBI supervisor Abbott - investigators have a handle on whether any aspects of the crime scene were staged to mislead.

 

[:+:MrTT:+:]

One reason this has gone on for 4 plus years now. Though it seems like last year. Is because what your seeing the bridge guy wear is a disguise. It is not an outfit he would wear everyday. Being a cool day, he was able to dress in layers perhaps with a funny hat and baggy pants, and that little pouch in front. That whole outfit was just a disguise incase someone seen him and gave a description. They would have given a description of the killer that looks nothing like him on any given day. People looked at him on that bridge and asked themselves if they know or knew of someone that looked/dressed like that. And the answer so far as far as we know is no., And that is the entire/main reason he dressed like that/wore that disguise that on that day. This killer is not stupid. And that was a smart thing for him to do. But did a lot of planning before actually killing that day. Probably read many cases on how killers were caught. Probably has an interest in killers and crime.

There is a chance this killer wears a everyday beard. But shaved it off for the killings incase seen and a description was given that her was clean shaved, Though he has long since grown it back. I wish they would have asked the publics back then, if they recall someone whom worn an every day beard ;;;;;;;;;;but then one day had it saved off, that may have look somewhat like the face on the bridge.

Also the killer may had put items he was going to use in the killings in a hidden place there, days or whatever before the killings so he would not have to carry everything there. Hid them somewhere.........Down the hill.


THE ;ABOVE ALL MOO AND SPECULATION, NOTHING POSTED AS BEING FACTUAL UNLESS OTHERWISE KNOWN TO BE. ALL ASSUMPTIONS, AND UNFOUNDED THEROY.

 

[MistyWaters]

The source was ISP Carter himself, on camera at the very end of the ID People Magazine: Delphi Murders show recently aired (according to another poster as my cable company has 2016 which is an obvious error).

I'm not saying it's an absolute but to my thinking, it's just how his language and demeanor struck me. He was speaking specifically not generally. AJMO

Well I don’t know, was that was a prior snip of him or did he appear on the show? People Magazine tends to dramatize, that’s for sure. I do recall his commitment to protect anyone coming forward with vital information and iirc it was made shortly after the 2nd sketch was released when DC appeared briefly on several televised shows.

DC always has a very dramatic manner of speaking as well. Considering an important part of any police officers training is to act in such a way so the ordinary person isn’t able to read their mind I’d say DC is a pro at it. So whether or not he knows who knows I think is impossible to tell from what he says.

 

[sunshineray]

Seems like ISP Carter, KG also feels there's that one person out there scared and also in denial.

"I definitely think somebody is out there that knows that voice — somebody knows that man walking across the bridge — and I think they're holding back," German says.

"Maybe they're scared," she adds. "Maybe they just don't want to believe it right now. Which is okay. But I hope someday, they're able to come forward and be like, 'I'm sorry, I've been holding this back. I just didn't believe it. I didn't want to believe it.' And then we'll get our answers."

Sister of Delphi Murder Victim Is Studying Criminal Justice to Help Homicide Victims' Families

 

[sunshineray]

Well I don’t know, was that was a prior snip of him or did he appear on the show? People Magazine tends to dramatize, that’s for sure. I do recall his commitment to protect anyone coming forward with vital information and iirc it was made shortly after the 2nd sketch was released.

DC always has a very dramatic manner of speaking as well. Considering an important part of any police officers training is to act in such a way so the ordinary person isn’t able to read their mind I’d say DC is a pro at it.

It seemed to me it was done as part of the show. I don't personally feel he's that difficult a person to read. I've known many cops that it was harder to get a handle on their "poker game"...so to speak.

 

[sunshineray]

I don't know if this will play for everyone but here's the ID channel video of the show.

The Delphi Killer | People Magazine Investigates

 

[MistyWaters]

It seemed to me it was done as part of the show. I don't personally feel he's that difficult a person to read. I've known many cops that it was harder to get a handle on their "poker game"...so to speak.

If you’ve followed this case throughout the more than four years, from the very first time DC spoke someone here has claimed they can tell by his manner of speaking that “he knows”......at the same time as he’s asking for a tip to assist in identifying the killer. It’s been a continual, perpetual thing.

It’d be a great thing if “he knows”. But if he doesn’t I think that insinuation is extremely counterproductive to LE in receiving that one good tip because if a tipster also believes “he knows”, they may tend to just stay silent.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

Seems like ISP Carter, KG also feels there's that one person out there scared and also in denial.

"I definitely think somebody is out there that knows that voice — somebody knows that man walking across the bridge — and I think they're holding back," German says.

"Maybe they're scared," she adds. "Maybe they just don't want to believe it right now. Which is okay. But I hope someday, they're able to come forward and be like, 'I'm sorry, I've been holding this back. I just didn't believe it. I didn't want to believe it.' And then we'll get our answers."

Sister of Delphi Murder Victim Is Studying Criminal Justice to Help Homicide Victims' Families

It seems to me everybody connected in any way with this case has said something like this at some point. LE, family, podcasters, youtubers etc.
To me, they are just speculating on why nobody has called up and identified the killer and the prevailing thought is that that person is scared. Carter did offer protection to whoever might come forward a while back but I don’t think there’s a particular person they think is holding back.
Just my thoughts.

 

[MistyWaters]

It seems to me everybody connected in any way with this case has said something like this at some point. LE, family, podcasters, youtubers etc.
To me, they are just speculating on why nobody has called up and identified the killer and the prevailing thought is that that person is scared. Carter did offer protection to whoever might come forward a while back but I don’t think there’s a particular person they think is holding back.
Just my thoughts.

After four years, that someone out there knows who the killer is but is too scared to come forward would be a logical conclusion leaning toward the side of optimism. Leazenby is quite frank in his Q&A response and we’ve never been led to believe this was an open and shut case. I do believe this case will eventually be solved but as more time passes it’s unlikely to be by someone who “knows something”.

I’d be wrong though if the recent additional $100k reward is for some reason strongly believed to be a greater motivator.

Sheriff Leazenby continues to answer double homicide questions | Carroll County Comet
Q. What elements of this case make it so difficult to solve?

A. Several, however the presiding factor seems to be that whomever is responsible has never discussed it with anyone.

 

[FrostedGlass]

I don't know if this will play for everyone but here's the ID channel video of the show.

The Delphi Killer | People Magazine Investigates

Thanks for the link; it played for me fine.

From Kelsi's comment about the shoe: "Once I knew what kind it was, I knew it was one of theirs." Apparently they were both wearing the same type.

I'm not sure it was necessary to air every bit of dirty laundry of the POIs who were found to not be involved.
Parents: caution your kids that what you do can follow you forever.

I was sort of surprised to still see the placement of the bodies found far to the east (1/2 mile from the bridge). So strange how that location has not changed since the beginning.

 

[Justice101]

I found it interesting that it said “a set” of footprints not 3 sets.

1 is a set (2 feet) and 3 is a set also.

 

[JnRyan]

I was looking the thread for the 1996 disappearance of Kristin Smart. One thread and it blew up yesterday after 2 arrests. Only one thread. We are on #132 here. I can't begin to imagine what will happen here when this killer is found.

 

[Justice101]

Thank you for providing the link.
In my post #728 i posted a strange theory. But I knew there was something weird at the site where the girls were found. And according to the link the former prosecutor mentioned...
Former prosecutor in unsolved Delphi rail track murders of two teens says the killer left behind at least three 'signatures' at the 'odd' crime scene which had a 'lot of physical evidence'....I certainly believe that now.

These 3 signatures would be something only the killer would know. Or someone else whom he told. Which I don't believe he has told anyone. I never believed it was simply, .l....Guys down the hill, across the water and then killed them where found. That's to simple. And according to the former prosecutor it looked staged. Which i believe that also.

I Still think they were drowned.//and or the water played a big part in the crime scene in some aspect and then tossed them on the bank. Someone on meth or another simulate would have no trouble drowning two young girls, one girl in each hand as they entered the water. Would certainly had prevented either one from screaming if he killed one at a time. Though one could ague he taped their mouths shut before crossing the water to kill them on the other side. I just don't believe they were killed on the other side, But put there after death.

Those three signatures aka calling cards, tell me the killer is following closely the investigation and probably reliving the killings through updates and chat sites.

I also believe he took items from the girls, to have a physical remembrance of the crime.

This was nothing more than a trill kill. Two instead of one. Double the adrenaline boost he must had been experiencing,.

Killers i read about state, during the killing they enter into a surreal world. Where all there senses are focused on the killing at hand. Things slow down and they sense nothing of the outside world during there killing moments. There was much rage and anger. No one kills in a case like this with joy and happiness. Though I am sure some do.

As we see the possible killer on the bridge. We see he has not much with him to stage a scene. Other than perhaps something in his pouch he was wearing on the front of his pants.

The fact this was done during the daylight hours is brazen,. He did not spend much time there, he did what he wanted and then left through that cemetery.

I dont think this guy is stupid. At one time in hjis life he may had been on the path of being successful at something, but something happened along the way that turned him into what he believed was a failure in life, and lived a simple life, always thinking of what could have been.

Perhaps some college or a trade school, but something beyond high school as far as education.

Probably not married, living alone, not many if any friends like he may have had in the past.

A loner now, possibly a drinker to kill the pain he feels from his failures in life. Probably does go to bars, and hopes to listen to others talk about the murders without him getting involved, especially since there is video of him now.

Those clothes he was wearing im sure have all been destroyed now. Probably burnt never to be retrieved again. He would live in a modest home, nothing fancy or real expensive. Could be a mobile home at a mobile park or private property.

He may have inherited some land through a will, and place a mobile home on it, or inherited a small house but nothing fancy.

I dont think hes a big guy, though looking at him on the bridge one may think that. He was wearing lalyers of clothes i think with baggy pants on. Which made him appear much bigger. He probably wearing a beard now.

Being caught on video has made him lay low for 4 years. THAT in itself may have prevent5ed some one else from being murdered . To close for comfort, plus he got two instead of one. I t5hink hes satisfied wit55h that number.

Do I think he is local, living there in delphi.......NO, I don't. ;BUT...........perhaps within two hours from that place, 100 miles or so in either direction. And probably lives in a mobile home on some private property or his own.

If it had been just one, we probably would still be looking for the person as missing. I think he had a plan to take one away back to his place, but since there were two he just killed them there. Much harder to travel with two young girls, than a single woman or girl.

He definitely left his calling card/cards. Probably caring them in his patch. Which would mean perhaps he planned on not taking them anywhere, one or two, but killing them there and leaving his signature calling cards. Could have been a regular deck of cards, or even tarot cards. I think he did leave something on the bodies only the killer would know.



THE ABOVE ALL MOO AND SPECULATION. NOTHING POSTED AS BEING FACT UNLESS OTHERWISE KNOWN TO BE. All SPECULATION AND ASSUMPTIONS. UNFOUNDED THOERIES. GUESSING ETC.

Yikes, your guesses seem highly unlikely. More reminiscent of a murder mystery. Jus my opinion.

 

[Jax49]

I really don't think the bodies were moved. It would have been very difficult based on size of the larger victim. moo

https://www.fbi.gov/wanted/seeking-info/liberty-german/@@download.pdf