Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #132

[Charlot123]

maybe they can tell us what size shoe he wears if they have a shoe print.

I want to see someone walk that bridge...a grown man , same stature, walk that bridge in the same way, hands by pockets , off to the side...someone who has never set foot, and isn't afraid to do it.

I don't want to see someone fall now...but I just want to see it, can that be done? how many tries would you need before you could sail across unbothered?

mOO

There should be prints. Unlikely one print. It could indicate how he left...

 

[Spartygirl]

But what about the possible difference between life, and death?

True
However, family has said multiple times that they thought they were looking for either "lost" or Injured" girls... Not dead girls.
They had absolutely no idea or thought that the girls would be found killed.
They all thought they were looking for injured girls.

 

[UnapologeticallyAspie]

As a parent, my worst fear would be the two teens had gotten together with older kids and alcohol and/or drugs were involved - no matter how well behaved a teen, the reality is teens can get caught up in the lure of experimenting and hanging out with the wrong crowd. And while I’d be frantic with worry because the girls didn’t come home that night, I’d be prepared to feel anger while hiding my huge relief when they came slinking home the next morning, all sheepish and apologetic. That’s how parenting teenagers goes, topped with a mixture of emotions and various responses.
And my child was lost, I

But if I was in the shoes of this family, I certainly would never express those sort of fears to the media because it’s really none of the general public’s business what possibilities crossed their minds. It’s every parent’s worst nightmare, that their children become the victims of foul play.

I could not agree more about even the most well behaved children/teens, because I was one of them...BUT being an autistic person who desperately wanted friends, starting around 9th grade, I was led into some badddd situations with older teenage boys.
And now that I know that I’m on the spectrum, I totally understand why my parents were “so strict” when I was growing up. They knew how gullible and naive I was. And they knew that I was different, that I desperately wanted girlfriends/friendships, and just how truly beautiful I was (and I’m not saying that in an arrogant way). I look back at that time in my life, and it was a miracle that I wasn’t kidnapped, nor raped or murdered. I was however molested, as a child, and sexually abused twice as a teenager.
I feel so deeply sad for Abby & Libby’s families.

 

[UnapologeticallyAspie]

I'm not in a first responder position, thankfully, where I need to make decisions between life and death for people but I presume that in situations like this LE has to take into account what is the least risk of harm to the greatest number of people. So for example, if someone is missing overnight and it is not known whether or not they are out in the elements (as was the case here), LE also has to consider how many others may be harmed searching and then make a decision. There have been plenty of missing children cases, some children much younger than this, where the official search was suspended for similar reasons. In the Delphi case, I think we've been told that finding them in the overnight hours would not have made a difference in terms of their survival. Obviously, LE didn't know at that time they were dealing with murder or even if the girls were still in the vicinity of the trails. LE didn't prevent people from staying to search if they wanted to - and people did stay, including volunteer fire fighters.

I don't know whether LE made the "right" decision in this case but I don't think that it materially affected the outcome as IMO the girls were already dead by the time the search started. As far as murders go, the bodies were found in a challenging scene from a forensics standpoint (outdoors) but were found relatively quickly, all things considered. I can't pinpoint this specifically and say the delay finding the bodies is why the crime isn't solved.

I was merely asking the question because AW’ obituary said she passed away the next day, on 2/14.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.legacy.com/obituaries/jconline/obituary.aspx?n=abigail-j-williams-abby&pid=184160552&fhid=15313

 

[UnapologeticallyAspie]

I’m certain it bears looking at and I’d be surprised if it hasn’t already. I think the main emphasis as far as the public is concerned should continue to be identifying the killer and media coverage has been extensive in that regard. Otherwise does it really matter what we think should’ve been done when the girls were first reported missing? How would that assist in this crime being solved?

I can understand the search being a larger issue if it was determined the girls had survived throughout the night but we know that wasn’t so.

We do? Abby’s obituary said that she passed away on the 14th. Was that a typo or done on purpose?
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.le...gail-j-williams-abby&pid=184160552&fhid=15313

 

[Spartygirl]

I was merely asking the question because AW’ obituary said she passed away the next day, on 2/14.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.legacy.com/obituaries/jconline/obituary.aspx?n=abigail-j-williams-abby&pid=184160552&fhid=15313

Family members can put any date of death they want
Libby's family chose the day they went missing and Abby's mom chose the day she was found for the DOD in the obit.
I know this is posted in the media thread here for Libby and Abby

 

[DeDee]

I always thought he could have stalked the girls for a few days or even longer, just waiting for a chance to get them alone. He looks to have traversed that bridge 100's of times as he is casual and steady even with all of his items including the gun he has in his pocket. I will tell you that few people are just gonna bounce across a bridge like that when there is no prior experience and not even knowing if it is stable.

I'm sure the police and all the locals know this. no one just saunters across that thing unless they know it.

the man at the store is very intriguing.
mOO

He looks to have traversed that bridge 100's of times as he is casual and steady even with all of his items including the gun he has in his pocket.

Isn't the ease of BG being able to traverse the High Bridge a bold move indicative that he not only may have grown up near the MHB but also played there as a youngster and later, as an adult, recreationally used Deer Creek?

How many homeowners along the banks of DC own canoes or kayaks? Mike P mentioned he hopped into a canoe at 7am on the 14th in order to search for these children.

#TearItDown

 

[Charlot123]

We do? Abby’s obituary said that she passed away on the 14th. Was that a typo or done on purpose?
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.legacy.com/obituaries/jconline/obituary.aspx?n=abigail-j-williams-abby&pid=184160552&fhid=15313

Findagrave doesn't make it clearer.

The stone says, date of death, February 13th. The explanation on Findagrave says, the obit mentions February 14th, meaning that the time of death was sometime after midnite on Feb 14th, with some time of death details confirming this.

Whatever you can make of this. (((

 

[katydid23]

We do? Abby’s obituary said that she passed away on the 14th. Was that a typo or done on purpose?
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.legacy.com/obituaries/jconline/obituary.aspx?n=abigail-j-williams-abby&pid=184160552&fhid=15313

I remember seeing a long discussion here about this back when the obit came out.

IIRC, obits usually use the date the body is found. They do not use what the ME says about TOD or anything like that. The obits are written by grieving family members who are not thinking about the TOD.

 

[UnapologeticallyAspie]

Family members can put any date of death they want
Libby's family chose the day they went missing and Abby's mom chose the day she was found for the DOD in the obit.
I know this is posted in the media thread here for Libby and Abby

But in this interview by CT, Libby’s mom eludes that the outcome could have possibly been different than how it ended up. Why would she lead the viewers to believe that possibility of the girls being found alive, if that wasn’t true? Or even possibly true? That boggles my mind. MOO.

 

[Yemelyan]

I've always had a hard time convincing myself that Abby did something she knew was forbidden unless it was important to one of them. Add to that I remain very puzzled that they would post the picture knowing how much trouble she would be in if Anna saw it. The catfishing theory remains close to the top of my theory list.

Abby didn't know it was forbidden. In the Scene of the Crime podcast, AW is interviewed. This is from around minute 19:40 of Episode 2:

Narrator: AW has stated that they became aware of the Snapchat photos sometime around 6 pm while at the Carroll County Sheriff’s office. Anna was not happy with the picture of her daughter on the Monon High Bridge. As she told us, she was shocked that Abby had walked on the bridge.

AW: “It never would have occurred to me that she would cross the bridge. So….even now when I think about it, I said I would have grounded her as soon as I found out that they walked across it before we recovered them and knew that they were gone. I had said [to others at the sheriff's office] “She is so grounded, I can’t believe she crossed that bridge!” Not because she wasn’t NOT allowed to, just because I’m terrified of heights and I don’t think it’s safe, and I couldn’t have sat there and watched her do it, but she was in no way prohibited from crossing the bridge. I just didn’t know she’d do it. She’s fearless!”

 

[Yemelyan]

But in this interview by CT, Libby’s mom eludes that the outcome could have possibly been different than how it ended up. Why would she lead the viewers to believe that possibility of the girls being found alive, if that wasn’t true? Or even possibly true? That boggles my mind. MOO.

I don't want to say anything negative about any family members. But, members of Libby's family have refuted some of the statements made by CT and they have given a reason that her narrative doesn't fit with that of others in the family who were present for the search that night.

 

[Jethro4WS]

I wonder how accurate this statement is in regards to the final crime scene and/or how the Beacon map is depicted? I wish I had access to better records...

Ron Logan has owned that piece of land for 53 years and said that the discovery of the girls’ bodies on his property is something he still hasn’t been able to come to terms with.

https://www.wrtv.com/news/local-new...c7dce0e&_ga=1.136436528.1295424310.1489771536

RL owned the property all the way to the midpoint of the creek at the time of the murders. Sometime later, possibly as early as 2018, parts of his land near the creek from two parcels were sold/given or otherwise transferred out of his name. I took beacon screenshots on two different occasions on 3/29/2017 and 4/6/2017 that are attached.

Those screenshots were taken by searching Beacon by name and when the parcel results came back then hitting the Map link. That brings up a map with all of RL parcels highlighted in yellow. If you click on one of them the parcel is highlighted in red. Those screenshots were posted as parts of posts to very early threads but when Websleuths changed the forum software all of the posted images were lost. There are any number of useful photos, screenshots, diagrams, etc. that may be lost forever unless those people kept them and they are still around to offer them up again.

What we see now on Beacon is that RL doesn't own any land where the girls were found and any information about that transfer has been made unavailable. That is one of the consequences of time moving on while we need information and visuals that were valid at a specific point in time.

 

[Yemelyan]

Findagrave doesn't make it clearer.

The stone says, date of death, February 13th. The explanation on Findagrave says, the obit mentions February 14th, meaning that the time of death was sometime after midnite on Feb 14th, with some time of death details confirming this.

Whatever you can make of this. (((

Commentary on Find A Grave can be edited by anyone and is not an official source of information, especially on time of death details. The autopsy in this case is sealed so time of death is not public information.

Each family chose the date for the obit that made the most sense to them at the time, as they've explained in different interviews.

 

[Spartygirl]

But in this interview by CT, Libby’s mom eludes that the outcome could have possibly been different than how it ended up. Why would she lead the viewers to believe that possibility of the girls being found alive, if that wasn’t true? Or even possibly true? That boggles my mind. MOO.

Just jumping off this post and video
First, Carrie did not say the girls could have been found "alive"
she said, and I quote " The girls possibly could have been found that night and who knows what the outcome could have been "
While we may interpret that to mean, they could have been found alive, is just our interpretation...
Not trying to be picky, but WS is about facts and I am just trying to stay with the facts.
We don't know what the outcome could have been ..she is speculating and hoping that perhaps the girls might have still been alive that night and who could blame a mom for hoping that ??

But she wasn't there while others who were searching out there know the circumstances and how the "lay of the land" was like there that night.
Other family members tend to dispute some of her remarks because she wasnt there and may not understand the condition of the area or how dangerous it could be in the dark around the creek area.

Please don't get me wrong, I respect Carrie, and have met her and family members and I feel her frustration with the case and especially that search night.

 

[Boxer]

Since the girls didn't have ride for sure until KG said yes to taking them to the trail, I would assume if there was meeting anyone a call text or other communication that they were going there would have happened at that time.

 

[Marzipan]

Isn't the ease of BG being able to traverse the High Bridge a bold move indicative that he not only may have grown up near the MHB but also played there as a youngster and later, as an adult, recreationally used Deer Creek?

How many homeowners along the banks of DC own canoes or kayaks? Mike P mentioned he hopped into a canoe at 7am on the 14th in order to search for these children.

#TearItDown View attachment 293202

It’s also been mentioned before that someone on certain medications could have traversed the bridge with less caution and less anxiety than the average person.

 

[Spartygirl]

Isn't the ease of BG being able to traverse the High Bridge a bold move indicative that he not only may have grown up near the MHB but also played there as a youngster and later, as an adult, recreationally used Deer Creek?

How many homeowners along the banks of DC own canoes or kayaks? Mike P mentioned he hopped into a canoe at 7am on the 14th in order to search for these children.

#TearItDown View attachment 293202

BBM
I would think he is very comfortable crossing that bridge and has done so before.
Either that or he was on drugs and had no fear.
IMO
I have been there. NO way was I crossing it. There were boards/planks missing, old rotted wood boards to walk across, plus the fact there are no side rails NOPE.. I was not doing it.

 

[Yemelyan]

BBM
I would think he is very comfortable crossing that bridge and has done so before.
Either that or he was on drugs and had no fear.
IMO
I have been there. NO way was I crossing it. There were boards/planks missing, old rotted wood boards to walk across, plus the fact there are no side rails NOPE.. I was not doing it.

To add to this, when I checked the Scene of the Crime podcast for the AW quote about Abby not being forbidden from being on the bridge (only because AW didn't realize she would try, so had never discussed it), in that same section the narrator reports that people in Delphi say that most people would not have set foot on it and of those that did, most only have crossed the bridge on a dare. It was that dilapidated and never intended for pedestrian use.

 

[pearl]

It's an offshoot of the optimistic belief that law enforcement knows who did it. That theme has been extremely simple to follow: Since the bridge is not well known it had to be a local. Since the bridge is very close to Delphi then local means Delphi. Since we're not solving this as soon as I expected then it has to be a false alibi. That false alibi should be easy to break via DNA but obviously we can't do that since the search party trampled all over the crime scene. Get with the program.

The catfishing angle is easily shot down by the great degree of detail and agreement regarding that morning, that Libby asked at the last minute and Kelsi originally said no. If not for those inconvenient anecdotes, then the catfishing angle would be relentlessly pushed and we wouldn't hear nearly as much about the search party and crime scene contamination. But just as the ones who do push the catfishing angle are content to ignore the description of that morning, the ones who devote to the contamination angle are more than willing to ignore the fact that the bodies were in an isolated area and we know exactly when they were discovered, and by members of the search party who were carefully selected to be in that high profile area. This wasn't Louie from Logansport skidding down the hill like a luger and crashing into the bodies while on his 6th beer of the day.

By all accounts two search parties came upon the bodies at almost the same time. One was the family member party who had discovered Libby's shoe, and the other group was following the set of footprints. Given who they were and the shocking aspect of what they encountered, I can almost guarantee this crime scene was handled far better than most. Yes, somebody might have touched the girls to see if there was any chance they were still alive. The odds of that wiping out best evidence is next to nothing.

Stranger crimes are hellish to solve. It baffles the heck out of me why that big picture truism doesn't dominate this case, as opposed to the constantly evolving rationalizations toward why they know who did it but aren't allowed to tell us.

Do you have a msm link for the above bolded part of your post?