Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #134

[k-mac]

I am pretty sure that if it wasn't him, with the notoriety of these murders, the driver would have come forward.

100%
They got something.
They need to release it .

moo

 

[SBops]

And I also wonder why they didn't scream. Was he holding one of them? Noise travels easily with no traffic sounds or even leaves on trees to deaden it.

 

[mi_hiker]

The vehicle that was supposedly parked at the abandoned CPS building is really one of the most confusing issues about this case to me. Somehow or another, whether you think it was captured on a CCTV camera or described by a witness, LE thinks that there was a vehicle there that's relevant to the case, but they've provided no details at all about the vehicle. I don't understand that, given that in practically any case I've ever heard of, having an accurate description of the color and shape of a vehicle is almost always used as a tool for seeking leads. I can't wrap my head around why LE would hold back what the vehicle looked like given how useful this type of information is in narrowing down potential suspects when developing leads, especially if the killer is not a local.

A thought that just popped into my head reading this. What if the vehicle was captured on a police dash cam or even a go pro type device from a cyclist (or both)? Not sure what time the first LE arrived, but would they have passed by this building enroute and captured a glimpse of a car parked there? Not enough to ID it, but surely enough to glimpse color and rough make/model?

 

[StarryStarryNight]

IMO The 20 minutes extra time is a time stamp of the car moving on from the abandoned CPS building.
Hoping they got enough likeness from LG video and enough detail from the surveillance at the next building.
That's why they want to talk to the driver of that vehicle. LE believe its him.
We need more info released about the car, driver and CPS building.

moo

My thought too when LE hinted that they had other video was it was from across from CPS. I also thought they would have seen it pretty quickly and known very early about the vehicle, but LE sure didn’t care anything about that car for the first two years of the investigation, and I can’t make sense of that. Your biggest lead, and you say nothing? I’m not sure what to make of it.

 

[SBops]

A thought that just popped into my head reading this. What if the vehicle was captured on a police dash cam or even a go pro type device from a cyclist (or both)? Not sure what time the first LE arrived, but would they have passed by this building enroute and captured a glimpse of a car parked there? Not enough to ID it, but surely enough to glimpse color and rough make/model?

I may be mistaken but I think that the families searched for them at first, so he probably was long gone by the time the police arrived.

 

[mekeritrig]

A thought that just popped into my head reading this. What if the vehicle was captured on a police dash cam or even a go pro type device from a cyclist (or both)? Not sure what time the first LE arrived, but would they have passed by this building enroute and captured a glimpse of a car parked there? Not enough to ID it, but surely enough to glimpse color and rough make/model?

The question of how LE came to be aware that there was a vehicle that might be important to the case is less interesting to me than the question of why LE has never provided a description of the vehicle. I can't think of a reasonable justification for holding that information close to the vest. If there's something everyone is familiar with, it's what kind of vehicles their family, friends, coworkers drive, and that's definitely the kind of puzzle piece that can lead someone to fit things together and send in a useful tip.

 

[carbuff]

The question of how LE came to be aware that there was a vehicle that might be important to the case is less interesting to me than the question of why LE has never provided a description of the vehicle. I can't think of a reasonable justification for holding that information close to the vest. If there's something everyone is familiar with, it's what kind of vehicles their family, friends, coworkers drive, and that's definitely the kind of puzzle piece that can lead someone to fit things together and send in a useful tip.

One reason for holding it back is that if somebody says, "it was my evil neighbor xx," they can ask, "What does xx drive?" and if it doesn't match, they know somebody is just out to get his neighbor. That's just a made-up example, obviously.

Or possibly it's such a common make/model that mentioning it would generate a flood of irrelevant tips.

 

[mekeritrig]

One reason for holding it back is that if somebody says, "it was my evil neighbor xx," they can ask, "What does xx drive?" and if it doesn't match, they know somebody is just out to get his neighbor. That's just a made-up example, obviously.

Or possibly it's such a common make/model that mentioning it would generate a flood of irrelevant tips.

I don't think either of those examples is very convincing. If LE is overwhelmed with tips that's generally a good thing because it means that the case hasn't gone cold. Even if the majority of the tips coming in were from people with bad intentions ultimately it's going to be worth it if the right person who would have otherwise never called or emailed can connect the dots and put law enforcement on the trail of the killer.

Also, about it possibly being a common make/model, the logic is that it doesn't matter if its the most common make or model of a vehicle in the country, the pool of people who drive a specific make/color of the vehicle is vastly smaller than the total pool of people even if they drive a common type of vehicle. Evidence that can effectively comb out millions of people from a huge population of people and produce more focused tips is a net win no matter how you look at it.

 

[Falling Down]

The vehicle that was supposedly parked at the abandoned CPS building is really one of the most confusing issues about this case to me. Somehow or another, whether you think it was captured on a CCTV camera or described by a witness, LE thinks that there was a vehicle there that's relevant to the case, but they've provided no details at all about the vehicle. I don't understand that, given that in practically any case I've ever heard of, having an accurate description of the color and shape of a vehicle is almost always used as a tool for seeking leads. I can't wrap my head around why LE would hold back what the vehicle looked like given how useful this type of information is in narrowing down potential suspects when developing leads, especially if the killer is not a local.

I'd wondered the same early on in this case, assuming a vehicle was indeed parked nearby. I'd assumed they parked at the cemetery, but LE have made mention of the now-demolished CPS building.

I researched the Lyric and Elizabeth case quite a bit after this case broke, and stumbled upon something interesting re: a vehicle description. As luck would have it, witnesses came forward with information about a vehicle on the very trail the girls were abducted from (or presumably were abducted from), however LE in Iowa emphasized after this information was released, 9 months after the abduction, that they generally look for 3 tips about vehicles in cases, and tips have to have similarities.

I'm giving LE and witnesses in the Delphi case the benefit of the doubt, so to speak. By that I mean I think LE has a vehicle description, but are hesitant to release that info until they can get more people to come forward with similar descriptions. Which explains their vague reference to "a vehicle". 4+ years on that's a virtual impossibility. Furthermore, as I've noticed during two trips to Delphi, both of which included observing C.R. 300, I believe that the killer parked along that road due to the sparse traffic it gets.

Iowa case:

Lyric Cook and Elizabeth Collins

Six months after Lyric and Elizabeth were found, authorities announced on Monday, June 24, 2013, they had three separate witnesses who said they saw a white, older-model, full-size SUV-type vehicle — similar to a Chevy Suburban or a Ford Bronco — parked on Arbutus Avenue on July 13. The street meets up with the bike trail where the girls’ bikes were found.

Two witnesses said they’d seen the white SUV parked between two bike trail signs. According to KWWL Channel 7, the other witness told police they saw the vehicle parked near the woods on the east side of the lake — only a few hundred feet from where the bikes were found.

All three witnesses said they’d seen the SUV sometime between 11:30 a.m. and 12:30 p.m. on July 13, 2012, the same day and approximate time period when the girls went missing, WHOTV Channel 13 reported on June 24, 2012.

I hope this helps some folks, it helped me understand why LE are sheepish about releasing certain info in cases.

May both cases be solved soon.

Edit: I can't find the link, but I specifically remember the 3rd vehicle witness in the Iowa case was described as being afraid of coming forward, hence why it took 9 months for the info to be released.

JMO

 

[MistyWaters]

The question of how LE came to be aware that there was a vehicle that might be important to the case is less interesting to me than the question of why LE has never provided a description of the vehicle. I can't think of a reasonable justification for holding that information close to the vest. If there's something everyone is familiar with, it's what kind of vehicles their family, friends, coworkers drive, and that's definitely the kind of puzzle piece that can lead someone to fit things together and send in a useful tip.

Requesting the driver of the vehicle parked from noon to 5pm at the old CPS building to contact the Delphi PD was mentioned by DC at the very beginning of the PC that occurred more than 2 years ago. He even used the word “please”. He never explained why they wanted to talk to the driver and definitely never associated the vehicle to the suspect. But a lot of people immediately jumped to that conclusion. The driver may’ve been a potential witness or maybe LE just wanted to determine why they parked there...lots of possibilities.

In over 2 years the driver of this vehicle has never been mentioned ever again so to me that indicates LE’s request was followed through and they got what information they were seeking. LE is not required to explain themselves in order to satisfy our curiosity.
JMO

 

[SBops]

I don't think either of those examples is very convincing. If LE is overwhelmed with tips that's generally a good thing because it means that the case hasn't gone cold. Even if the majority of the tips coming in were from people with bad intentions ultimately it's going to be worth it if the right person who would have otherwise never called or emailed can connect the dots and put law enforcement on the trail of the killer.

Also, about it possibly being a common make/model, the logic is that it doesn't matter if its the most common make or model of a vehicle in the country, the pool of people who drive a specific make/color of the vehicle is vastly smaller than the total pool of people even if they drive a common type of vehicle. Evidence that can effectively comb out millions of people from a huge population of people and produce more focused tips is a net win no matter how you look at it.

Yes, and good investigation practices mean discounting as much as discovering. A process of elimination, leaving only a pool.

 

[JudgeJudi]

Although, the Jerry Holeman interview at CrimeCon has him going into some details about the sketch and how witnesses were involved. But they never agreed on the hat. I can definitely see the sketch being produced by a combined effort of the video and the witnesses. Specifically the hat in the video resembling the sketch. I can absolutely see how it could have been a welders hat though, but most people wouldn't know what that is so they go with something that is more common and similar in style.

“Detectives say the man's hat was not drawn as described in order to make his facial features more easily recognizable.”

https://www.theindychannel.com/long...y-state-police-say-libby-abbys-case-isnt-cold

 

[SBops]

The vehicle that was supposedly parked at the abandoned CPS building is really one of the most confusing issues about this case to me. Somehow or another, whether you think it was captured on a CCTV camera or described by a witness, LE thinks that there was a vehicle there that's relevant to the case, but they've provided no details at all about the vehicle. I don't understand that, given that in practically any case I've ever heard of, having an accurate description of the color and shape of a vehicle is almost always used as a tool for seeking leads. I can't wrap my head around why LE would hold back what the vehicle looked like given how useful this type of information is in narrowing down potential suspects when developing leads, especially if the killer is not a local.

I actually think that LE was over confident that this would be solved quickly and they could take big kudos for it. That is hasn't been solved quickly may be in no small part to their seeming reluctance to release stuff that could have helped.
I find it ridiculous that it took years to release one additional word of the audio. Absolutely ridiculous. I cannot understand why.

 

[SBops]

“Detectives say the man's hat was not drawn as described in order to make his facial features more easily recognizable.”

https://www.theindychannel.com/long...y-state-police-say-libby-abbys-case-isnt-cold

Another unnecessary thing, IMO. They say that they put that hat on him so people would concentrate on his facial features, then release a completely different sketch, over two years later?

 

[carbuff]

Requesting the driver of the vehicle parked from noon to 5pm at the old CPS building to contact the Delphi PD was mentioned by DC at the very beginning of the PC that occurred more than 2 years ago. He even used the word “please”. He never explained why they wanted to talk to the driver and definitely never associated the vehicle to the suspect. But a lot of people immediately jumped to that conclusion. The driver may’ve been a potential witness or maybe LE just wanted to determine why they parked there...lots of possibilities.

In over 2 years the driver of this vehicle has never been mentioned ever again so to me that indicates LE’s request was followed through and they got what information they were seeking. LE is not required to explain themselves in order to satisfy our curiosity.
JMO

I think you're right that they must have the information they needed. I didn't realize it was so long ago that they asked--wow, hard to believe how long it's been.

 

[Falling Down]

Requesting the driver of the vehicle parked from noon to 5pm at the old CPS building to contact the Delphi PD was mentioned by DC at the very beginning of the PC that occurred more than 2 years ago. He even used the word “please”. He never explained why they wanted to talk to the driver and definitely never associated the vehicle to the suspect. But a lot of people immediately jumped to that conclusion. The driver may’ve been a potential witness or maybe LE just wanted to determine why they parked there...lots of possibilities.

In over 2 years the driver of this vehicle has never been mentioned ever again so to me that indicates LE’s request was followed through and they got what information they were seeking. LE is not required to explain themselves in order to satisfy our curiosity.
JMO

Great post.

I'd like to stress that the most common place people will park and then walk the main trail, ever since the Freedom Bridge was opened, is on a raised area accessible from C.R. 300 on the other side of the highway from the main trail/trailhead.

There is a short trail from the parking area for the former (now demolished) CPS building which leads to the trailhead, which is on the east end of the Freedom Bridge. BG would have used that trail to get on to the Monon Trail had he parked at the CPS building. Also, people crossing the bridge from the usual parking area on the west side of IN 25 would not have seen a vehicle parked at the CPS building, had he parked it just right. I noticed this during my trip out there in October.

JMO

 

[Dontknow?]

I am pretty sure that if it wasn't him, with the notoriety of these murders, the driver would have come forward.

Not if they have criminal records, perhaps felonies that could lead to a search of their home to find guns etc...Some groups don't snitch out of fear of their own lives? Guilt? Family beliefs? Family/Friend protection? Long list.

 

[Boxer]

Great post.

I'd like to stress that the most common place people will park and then walk the main trail, ever since the Freedom Bridge was opened, is on a raised area accessible from C.R. 300 on the other side of the highway from the main trail/trailhead.

There is a short trail from the parking area for the former (now demolished) CPS building which leads to the trailhead, which is on the east end of the Freedom Bridge. BG would have used that trail to get on to the Monon Trail had he parked at the CPS building. Also, people crossing the bridge from the usual parking area on the west side of IN 25 would not have seen a vehicle parked at the CPS building, had he parked it just right. I noticed this during my trip out there in October.

JMO

MOO maybe part of the plain sight thing.

 

[DeDee]

Homicidal TRIAD [Behavior Patterns]

Cruelty to animals. Suppositions are not facts; publicly kind to dogs.

Fascination with fire. Check. There is a list of his fires in mag's threads.

Excessive bedwetting, over and over and... Um, ok...

Forensic psychiatrist John Macdonald, is generally credited with "discovering" the triad. In a 1963 article in the American Journal of Psychiatry, entitled "The Threat to Kill," he gave his clinical impression that "a history of great parental brutality, extreme maternal seduction, or the triad of childhood firesetting, cruelty to animals and enuresis" can signal those who will eventually threaten homicide." Homicidal Triad: Predictor of Violence or Urban Myth?

Child Abuse
Households in which participants suffer from alcoholism, substance abuse or anger issues ... Child Abuse

 

[SBops]

Not if they have criminal records, perhaps felonies that could lead to a search of their home to find guns etc...Some groups don't snitch out of fear of their own lives? Guilt? Family beliefs? Family/Friend protection? Long list.

Yes and that is why I think that it was a really bad idea to send RL to jail when he was honest about where he was.