Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #134

[FromGermany1]

One more observation.
WHY is he not shackled, his crime is violent and heinous. He has been in prison for attacking a policeman, and then once there attacking a prison guard.

His gait looks waddling, so maybe he had ankle cuffs at least?

 

[CrimeDawg123]

The vehicle that was supposedly parked at the abandoned CPS building is really one of the most confusing issues about this case to me. Somehow or another, whether you think it was captured on a CCTV camera or described by a witness, LE thinks that there was a vehicle there that's relevant to the case, but they've provided no details at all about the vehicle. I don't understand that, given that in practically any case I've ever heard of, having an accurate description of the color and shape of a vehicle is almost always used as a tool for seeking leads. I can't wrap my head around why LE would hold back what the vehicle looked like given how useful this type of information is in narrowing down potential suspects when developing leads, especially if the killer is not a local.

It's almost as if they are hoping the public can tell them what kind of vehicle it was. Straws/grasping?

 

[spandangly]

I found this FBI training video from the 1960s on physical evidence and thought it might get some gears turning. And it's also just so retro.

 

[Yemelyan]

All JMO, but....

Blood can leak out of blood vessels damaged by force after death and create marks that are basically indistinguishable (or, distinguishable only some of the time, to forensic pathologists) to true bruising. Source: Interpreting bruises at necropsy

If someone dragged a body by its wrists or lower arms shortly after the stage where the heart was no longer beating, this would cause marks on the body that would be difficult for even the most competent pathologist to judge whether they occurred ante or post-mortem. A study have found true (histological) bruising on the arms of drowning victims who were pulled by the lower arms one hour after death: [Bruise-like discolorations can appear after death] - PubMed

So in this case, I have trouble saying "bruising could only have occurred while Libby was alive" because we have no idea where the source got his information. Was he reporting on what his eyes saw and his non-expert mind came up with an explanation for (her wrists were discolored after death so, not being a pathologist, he assumed this was bruising)? Or is he reporting the contents of the autopsy report where the pathologist named it bruising (if so, then IMO it was)? Is he giving second hand information that came from a funeral home, where someone (family perhaps) saw post-mortem skin changes (livor mortis, etc) on a dead body and thought he/she was looking at "bruises"? We just have no idea what the observation is based on or the knowledge of the person providing it.

 

[margarita25]

What do we have on JC for Saturday, July 15, 2017 according to his FB posts & photos? (Thanks in advance, my dates are wonky w FB as previously mentioned.)


“And so on Saturday, July 15, 2017, the Dusty Trail Saloon will host "The Abby and Libby Field of Dreams Memorial Concert," Spencer said in a press conference on Thursday evening.

During July's memorial concert, Spencer said the platinum rock group Saving Abel will perform, as well as regional act XFactor1. There will also be a hog roast, a motorcycle ride and a silent auction. All the proceeds from the concert will go toward the future softball complex and park in Delphi.”

Concert for slain teens planned in Kokomo
April 17, 2017

—

Eta: Also, what are the dates on his Twitter videos?

 

[taylorss]

What do we have on JC for Saturday, July 15, 2017 according to his FB posts & photos? (Thanks in advance, my dates are wonky w FB as previously mentioned.)


“And so on Saturday, July 15, 2017, the Dusty Trail Saloon will host "The Abby and Libby Field of Dreams Memorial Concert," Spencer said in a press conference on Thursday evening.

During July's memorial concert, Spencer said the platinum rock group Saving Abel will perform, as well as regional act XFactor1. There will also be a hog roast, a motorcycle ride and a silent auction. All the proceeds from the concert will go toward the future softball complex and park in Delphi.”

Concert for slain teens planned in Kokomo
April 17, 2017

Interesting, unpleasant questions ...

 

[StarryStarryNight]

What do we have on JC for Saturday, July 15, 2017 according to his FB posts & photos? (Thanks in advance, my dates are wonky w FB as previously mentioned.)


“And so on Saturday, July 15, 2017, the Dusty Trail Saloon will host "The Abby and Libby Field of Dreams Memorial Concert," Spencer said in a press conference on Thursday evening.

During July's memorial concert, Spencer said the platinum rock group Saving Abel will perform, as well as regional act XFactor1. There will also be a hog roast, a motorcycle ride and a silent auction. All the proceeds from the concert will go toward the future softball complex and park in Delphi.”

Concert for slain teens planned in Kokomo
April 17, 2017

—

Eta: Also, what are the dates on his Twitter videos?

There was also this carwash fundraiser on April 8 2017. Just thinking about JBC’s comment about ”...carwashes and train trestles(which he misspelled)”.

Libby and Abby’s family members thank community for support | WTTV CBS4Indy

 

[TheSun]

What do we have on JC for Saturday, July 15, 2017 according to his FB posts & photos? (Thanks in advance, my dates are wonky w FB as previously mentioned.)


“And so on Saturday, July 15, 2017, the Dusty Trail Saloon will host "The Abby and Libby Field of Dreams Memorial Concert," Spencer said in a press conference on Thursday evening.

During July's memorial concert, Spencer said the platinum rock group Saving Abel will perform, as well as regional act XFactor1. There will also be a hog roast, a motorcycle ride and a silent auction. All the proceeds from the concert will go toward the future softball complex and park in Delphi.”

Concert for slain teens planned in Kokomo
April 17, 2017

—

Eta: Also, what are the dates on his Twitter videos?

Posts in July 2017
July 9
"Art"
Video of a pencil sketch of two girls on a tree (Abby and Libby?)
Link to post
July 20
"Pit Bully... So vicious..."
Pictures of him and his dog
Link to post

 

[WestieMom]

I found nothing posted on July 15 or April 8, 2017.

There was also this carwash fundraiser on April 8 2017. Just thinking about JBC’s comment about ”...carwashes and train trestles(which he misspelled)”.

Libby and Abby’s family members thank community for support | WTTV CBS4Indy

 

[margarita25]

There was also this carwash fundraiser on April 8 2017. Just thinking about JBC’s comment about ”...carwashes and train trestles(which he misspelled)”.

Libby and Abby’s family members thank community for support | WTTV CBS4Indy

Thanks for bringing this forward. This actually came up on Friday also, not sure how far we got in that conversation, (marking that spot to go back to). Here is some additional reference I provided on that:

Libby and Abby’s family members thank community for support | WTTV CBS4Indy
April 8, 2017

“DELPHI, Ind. – Dozens of people volunteered their time for a car wash fundraiser in honor of Libby German and Abby Williams Saturday, as the search for the teens’ killer continues.”

German, 14, and Williams, 13, were murdered in February. They were found near the Delphi trails.

—
eta:
And this:

“After the loss of Abby and Libby, donations poured in to help these families, including fundraisers, from motorcycle rides, bake sales and car washes, and cash donations. The families decided to pay this forward with something to live on for generations.”

Work well underway at Abby and Libby Memorial Park | Fox 59
July 4, 2020

—

eta2:

April 3, 2017
Indiana teens' mysterious murders still unsolved 2 months later

“Greg Briles, the superintendent of schools for the Delphi Community School Corporation, told ABC News on Thursday, "There's still some grieving going on" for students at the middle school, "but they're working through it."

Fundraisers in town, including a bake sale and car wash, are raising money for a softball field in honor of Abby and Libby, Briles said.

"[It] warms your heart that these people are coming out to build something that's going to be there for years and years to come, that'll be in remembrance of those girls," Briles said. "They'll remember that those girls had a love and a passion for softball ... [and] everybody in our community had a love and a passion for those girls' lives."

"I think our students and families and members of the community would like to see closure," Briles said, adding that he knows Abby's and Libby's families would like closure.“

Last edited: Friday at 7:28 PM

—

Posts in July 2017
July 9
"Art"
Video of a pencil sketch of two girls on a tree (Abby and Libby?)
Link to post
July 20
"Pit Bully... So vicious..."
Pictures of him and his dog
Link to post

Thanks. This actually shows up as July 8 and July 19 for me. I am SO over this FB date business.

 

[Deerrun]

IMHO I think the sketch story could be explained by the scenario that when BG was on the bridge he had facial hair and when he exited the park he did not have facial hair. LE could not connect the witness' first sketch since he was described as clean shaven. They made the mistake of thinking the video was a better witness than an actual person. They released what they saw in the video in the form of a sketch. When the April 2019 happened they said "you thought you fooled us" as in you changed your appearance in the park. They release the new sketch and let him know they figured this out. I think they may have found some type of camp in a place that only someone familiar with the park could easily be found. "You want to know what we know" could be an LE taunt that they have now connected the camp to the correct sketch. We were on to something early on could have been about that camp which was discovered. In GH's video something about 20 minutes still in the park. Is it possible someone saw a clean shaven man packing up a camp so they did not pursue because they thought scruffy older looking man on the bridge did not match a younger looking person. JMHO

Edit...he shaved between time on the bridge and clearing his camp to leave the park.

Totally agree with all you wrote, great post!

 

[TLobo]

On BG potentially shaving his facial hair, and whether or not it (the hair, if left behind - in a pile? on a razor?) could have been one of the "signatures" at the scene or in the area: if there was hair left behind, would there not then be actual DNA evidence, from that hair? If BG had ample facial hair, and not just stubble, then shaved it off prior to his exit in an effort to disguise himself further, I would think there would be enough hair to make up a complete sample of DNA. And since it's unclear-to-doubtful that there is a complete DNA sample, it seems unlikely that there would be facial hair left hanging around.

But I am also no expert in either facial hair or DNA, so this is clearly all MOO. (although before I thought about this, I had wondered if left-behind facial hair could maybe explain the "reddish brown hair" descriptor"

 

[Deerrun]

One more observation.
WHY is he not shackled, his crime is violent and heinous. He has been in prison for attacking a policeman, and then once there attacking a prison guard.

Imo it is almost as if it was on purpose. Like a bone being thown to all people following this case so they could see his mannerisms walking and be compared to BG. Reaching jmo but that is what I thought when I first saw the video.

 

[Yemelyan]

Regarding signatures and whether shaving his hair (I assume people mean, in order to change his appearance to distance himself from the crime) could be one, or dog bites could be one - signatures, as criminalists use the term, are defined very narrowly as those behaviors offenders do before, during, or after the crime that serve to fulfill their deep psychological needs or motivations behind the crime. These behaviors by definition are things that were wholly unnecessary to the actual commission of the murder, but the offender did them anyway because they were psychologically fulfilling. Typically, these behaviors have sexual origins and motivations (though they may not be recognizable to the average person as "normal" expressions of such). They often represent the psychological linkage that the offender has made, at some point in his development, between violence and the sexual response. JMO

So - signatures are not just weird things an offender did. If it serves a utilitarian purpose (like to disguise himself), it's part of the modis operandi, not a signature.

As another example, if a serial offender attacks his victims only on Thursdays, and it's because he had Thursdays off of work - even though it repeats in every crime, that's not a signature. There's nothing about Thursdays in particular that reference his psychological need to offend, it's just the day he has off.

Article which explains signatures vs. MO: Serial Killers: Modus Operandi, Signature, Staging & Posing

 

[CrimeAway]

Very useful post, @Yemelyan. Thank you!

 

[zencompass]

On BG potentially shaving his facial hair, and whether or not it (the hair, if left behind - in a pile? on a razor?) could have been one of the "signatures" at the scene or in the area: if there was hair left behind, would there not then be actual DNA evidence, from that hair? If BG had ample facial hair, and not just stubble, then shaved it off prior to his exit in an effort to disguise himself further, I would think there would be enough hair to make up a complete sample of DNA. And since it's unclear-to-doubtful that there is a complete DNA sample, it seems unlikely that there would be facial hair left hanging around.

But I am also no expert in either facial hair or DNA, so this is clearly all MOO. (although before I thought about this, I had wondered if left-behind facial hair could maybe explain the "reddish brown hair" descriptor"

Brilliant thought @TLobo, about a pile of hair being a "signature" !

Great point as well - about "reddish brown" hair being found there!

Hair found could produce MtDNA(Mitochondrial DNA) results - which narrows it down to individuals who share the same maternal lineage.

If a root of a hair is discovered (with tissue attached), then it can be tested, and may provide results, for Nuclear DNA.

Y-Chromosome DNA could also have been collected from the crime scene, which could produce results narrowing it down to individuals who share the same paternal lineage.

Nuclear DNA matches one individual. We weren't told by L.E. that they have nuclear DNA - just that they found "DNA evidence at the crime scene".


Link to F.B.I. website:

DNA Casework — FBI

Mitochondrial DNA
Mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) is a form of DNA that is transmitted from mother to child in a complete set; therefore, anyone in the maternal lineage will have the same mtDNA profile. This type of DNA testing can be useful on evidence items such as naturally shed hairs, hair fragments, bones, and teeth.

Nuclear DNA
Nuclear DNA (nDNA) is the most discriminating and is typically analyzed in evidence containing body fluids, skin cells, bones, and hairs that have tissue at their root ends. The power of nDNA testing lies in the ability to identify an individual as being the source of the DNA obtained from an evidence item, or by excluding an individual as a contributor to the DNA evidence.

Y-chromosome DNA
Y-chromosome DNA testing is a form of nuclear DNA testing that is specific to the male chromosome, also known as the Y-chromosome. This type of testing can be useful for sexual assaults, missing persons, and intelligence cases. The Y-chromosome is transmitted from father to son as a complete set; therefore, anyone in the paternal lineage will have the same Y-chromosome profile.

Also, the Indiana State Police and the F.B.I did advise that they found "a partial print" at the crime scene.

Scientific Analysis | Federal Bureau of Investigation

 

[Justice101]

catching up after a week out of state

 

[minazoe]

I think there is so much to unpack with this guy..I mean it's really unbelievable...his whereabouts ..etc..I think he dyes his hair..I think spent a great deal of time , unable to unleash his pent up frustrations while he was in prison..I am sure he had a very intense fantasy life and could be a bit psychotic in that he believes he is following his fantasy and there is another dialogue going on along side reality..if that makes sense.. like another conversation in his head.

this doesn't mean he is crazy though..he knows exactly what he is doing..the fantasy is his game he makes up as he goes along....he adheres to it because it's HIS game and no one elses..

it's all BS.

a sadist is a sadist is a sadist.

mOO

 

[sunshineray]

I'm not sure where "unseasonably warm" came from. It looks like an average day, or maybe slightly warmer than average. I'm sure it is very common to have cold snaps in February. 2/13/17 was not one of those times. But "unseasonably warm?" The low was 23 around dawn, and the high was 45 around 2pm. I know the wind and sun (or lack thereof) can alter how the actual temperature feels, but 45 degrees is 45 degrees, and that was the high temp. Jacket recommended.

Sure, if you're out in the early afternoon, walking at a steady pace, your body will produce a lot of heat. It might not seem too bad walking from the parking lot into cracker barrel. But if you are outside for hours, and not being particularly active, than 45 is pretty cold.

All from 2017:
Feb 6. High 52
Feb 7. High 59
Feb 8. High 34
Feb9. High 21
Feb 10. High 46
Feb 11. High 63
Feb 12.......high 50
Feb 13. High 45
Feb 14.......high 50
Feb 15. High 37
Feb 16. High 46
Feb17 thru feb 24.......all highs in the 60's. (Now THIS is what I would call unseasonably warm)

It looks like the 13th was actually one of the cooler days in this stretch. Sure, I bet it is not uncommon for delphi to have highs in the teens, or even single digits, in February. There just seems to be a misconception (imo) that it was balmy on 2/13/17.

MOO

45* around here, in the Northeast, by the shore, in the middle of February would feel like Spring has sprung. Especially if there was little to no wind.

 

[Alethea]

Regarding signatures and whether shaving his hair (I assume people mean, in order to change his appearance to distance himself from the crime) could be one, or dog bites could be one - signatures, as criminalists use the term, are defined very narrowly as those behaviors offenders do before, during, or after the crime that serve to fulfill their deep psychological needs or motivations behind the crime. These behaviors by definition are things that were wholly unnecessary to the actual commission of the murder, but the offender did them anyway because they were psychologically fulfilling. Typically, these behaviors have sexual origins and motivations (though they may not be recognizable to the average person as "normal" expressions of such). They often represent the psychological linkage that the offender has made, at some point in his development, between violence and the sexual response. JMO

So - signatures are not just weird things an offender did. If it serves a utilitarian purpose (like to disguise himself), it's part of the modis operandi, not a signature.

As another example, if a serial offender attacks his victims only on Thursdays, and it's because he had Thursdays off of work - even though it repeats in every crime, that's not a signature. There's nothing about Thursdays in particular that reference his psychological need to offend, it's just the day he has off.

Article which explains signatures vs. MO: Serial Killers: Modus Operandi, Signature, Staging & Posing

Great post. Looking back at historical serial killers (I don't want to call them "historic" serial killers!), signatures are often things like posing the body after death, cleaning the body, the specific order of doing things (binding, etc.). Think about it this way: your signature in handwriting is unique and it's something above and beyond just writing your name. The cursive and flourishes are not necessary but they are part of how you identify yourself. It is similar for criminal signatures.