Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #134

Discussion in 'Located Persons Discussion' started by Tricia, Apr 22, 2019.

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  1. FromGermany1

    FromGermany1 Don't like it, but have to wait.

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    His gait looks waddling, so maybe he had ankle cuffs at least?
     
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  2. CrimeDawg123

    CrimeDawg123 Well-Known Member

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    It's almost as if they are hoping the public can tell them what kind of vehicle it was. Straws/grasping?
     
  3. spandangly

    spandangly Well-Known Member

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    I found this FBI training video from the 1960s on physical evidence and thought it might get some gears turning. And it's also just so retro. :)
     
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  4. Yemelyan

    Yemelyan Well-Known Member

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    All JMO, but....

    Blood can leak out of blood vessels damaged by force after death and create marks that are basically indistinguishable (or, distinguishable only some of the time, to forensic pathologists) to true bruising. Source: Interpreting bruises at necropsy

    If someone dragged a body by its wrists or lower arms shortly after the stage where the heart was no longer beating, this would cause marks on the body that would be difficult for even the most competent pathologist to judge whether they occurred ante or post-mortem. A study have found true (histological) bruising on the arms of drowning victims who were pulled by the lower arms one hour after death: [Bruise-like discolorations can appear after death] - PubMed

    So in this case, I have trouble saying "bruising could only have occurred while Libby was alive" because we have no idea where the source got his information. Was he reporting on what his eyes saw and his non-expert mind came up with an explanation for (her wrists were discolored after death so, not being a pathologist, he assumed this was bruising)? Or is he reporting the contents of the autopsy report where the pathologist named it bruising (if so, then IMO it was)? Is he giving second hand information that came from a funeral home, where someone (family perhaps) saw post-mortem skin changes (livor mortis, etc) on a dead body and thought he/she was looking at "bruises"? We just have no idea what the observation is based on or the knowledge of the person providing it.
     
  5. margarita25

    margarita25 Well-Known Member

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    What do we have on JC for Saturday, July 15, 2017 according to his FB posts & photos? (Thanks in advance, my dates are wonky w FB as previously mentioned.)


    “And so on Saturday, July 15, 2017, the Dusty Trail Saloon will host "The Abby and Libby Field of Dreams Memorial Concert," Spencer said in a press conference on Thursday evening.

    During July's memorial concert, Spencer said the platinum rock group Saving Abel will perform, as well as regional act XFactor1. There will also be a hog roast, a motorcycle ride and a silent auction. All the proceeds from the concert will go toward the future softball complex and park in Delphi.”

    Concert for slain teens planned in Kokomo
    April 17, 2017



    Eta: Also, what are the dates on his Twitter videos?
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2021
  6. taylorss

    taylorss Well-Known Member

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    Interesting, unpleasant questions ...
     
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  7. StarryStarryNight

    StarryStarryNight Well-Known Member

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    There was also this carwash fundraiser on April 8 2017. Just thinking about JBC’s comment about ”...carwashes and train trestles(which he misspelled)”.

    Libby and Abby’s family members thank community for support | WTTV CBS4Indy
     
  8. TheSun

    TheSun Member

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    Posts in July 2017
    July 9
    "Art"
    Video of a pencil sketch of two girls on a tree (Abby and Libby?)
    Link to post
    July 20
    "Pit Bully... So vicious..."
    Pictures of him and his dog
    Link to post
     
  9. WestieMom

    WestieMom Well-Known Member

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  10. margarita25

    margarita25 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for bringing this forward. This actually came up on Friday also, not sure how far we got in that conversation, (marking that spot to go back to). Here is some additional reference I provided on that:



    Thanks. This actually shows up as July 8 and July 19 for me. I am SO over this FB date business. :D
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2021
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  11. Deerrun

    Deerrun Well-Known Member

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    Totally agree with all you wrote, great post!
     
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  12. TLobo

    TLobo Well-Known Member

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    On BG potentially shaving his facial hair, and whether or not it (the hair, if left behind - in a pile? on a razor?) could have been one of the "signatures" at the scene or in the area: if there was hair left behind, would there not then be actual DNA evidence, from that hair? If BG had ample facial hair, and not just stubble, then shaved it off prior to his exit in an effort to disguise himself further, I would think there would be enough hair to make up a complete sample of DNA. And since it's unclear-to-doubtful that there is a complete DNA sample, it seems unlikely that there would be facial hair left hanging around.

    But I am also no expert in either facial hair or DNA, so this is clearly all MOO. (although before I thought about this, I had wondered if left-behind facial hair could maybe explain the "reddish brown hair" descriptor"
     
  13. Deerrun

    Deerrun Well-Known Member

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    Imo it is almost as if it was on purpose. Like a bone being thown to all people following this case so they could see his mannerisms walking and be compared to BG. Reaching jmo but that is what I thought when I first saw the video.
     
  14. Yemelyan

    Yemelyan Well-Known Member

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    Regarding signatures and whether shaving his hair (I assume people mean, in order to change his appearance to distance himself from the crime) could be one, or dog bites could be one - signatures, as criminalists use the term, are defined very narrowly as those behaviors offenders do before, during, or after the crime that serve to fulfill their deep psychological needs or motivations behind the crime. These behaviors by definition are things that were wholly unnecessary to the actual commission of the murder, but the offender did them anyway because they were psychologically fulfilling. Typically, these behaviors have sexual origins and motivations (though they may not be recognizable to the average person as "normal" expressions of such). They often represent the psychological linkage that the offender has made, at some point in his development, between violence and the sexual response. JMO

    So - signatures are not just weird things an offender did. If it serves a utilitarian purpose (like to disguise himself), it's part of the modis operandi, not a signature.

    As another example, if a serial offender attacks his victims only on Thursdays, and it's because he had Thursdays off of work - even though it repeats in every crime, that's not a signature. There's nothing about Thursdays in particular that reference his psychological need to offend, it's just the day he has off.

    Article which explains signatures vs. MO: Serial Killers: Modus Operandi, Signature, Staging & Posing
     
  15. CrimeAway

    CrimeAway Well-Known Member

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  16. zencompass

    zencompass Hope springs eternal

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    Brilliant thought @TLobo, about a pile of hair being a "signature" !

    Great point as well - about "reddish brown" hair being found there!

    Hair found could produce MtDNA(Mitochondrial DNA) results - which narrows it down to individuals who share the same maternal lineage.

    If a root of a hair is discovered (with tissue attached), then it can be tested, and may provide results, for Nuclear DNA.

    Y-Chromosome DNA could also have been collected from the crime scene, which could produce results narrowing it down to individuals who share the same paternal lineage.

    Nuclear DNA
    matches one individual. We weren't told by L.E. that they have nuclear DNA - just that they found "DNA evidence at the crime scene".


    Link to F.B.I. website:

    DNA Casework — FBI

    Mitochondrial DNA

    Mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) is a form of DNA that is transmitted from mother to child in a complete set; therefore, anyone in the maternal lineage will have the same mtDNA profile. This type of DNA testing can be useful on evidence items such as naturally shed hairs, hair fragments, bones, and teeth.

    Nuclear DNA
    Nuclear DNA (nDNA) is the most discriminating and is typically analyzed in evidence containing body fluids, skin cells, bones, and hairs that have tissue at their root ends. The power of nDNA testing lies in the ability to identify an individual as being the source of the DNA obtained from an evidence item, or by excluding an individual as a contributor to the DNA evidence.

    Y-chromosome DNA
    Y-chromosome DNA testing is a form of nuclear DNA testing that is specific to the male chromosome, also known as the Y-chromosome. This type of testing can be useful for sexual assaults, missing persons, and intelligence cases. The Y-chromosome is transmitted from father to son as a complete set; therefore, anyone in the paternal lineage will have the same Y-chromosome profile.

    Also, the Indiana State Police and the F.B.I did advise that they found "a partial print" at the crime scene.

    Scientific Analysis | Federal Bureau of Investigation
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2021
  17. Justice101

    Justice101 Well-Known Member

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    catching up after a week out of state
     
  18. minazoe

    minazoe Well-Known Member

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    I think there is so much to unpack with this guy..I mean it's really unbelievable...his whereabouts ..etc..I think he dyes his hair..I think spent a great deal of time , unable to unleash his pent up frustrations while he was in prison..I am sure he had a very intense fantasy life and could be a bit psychotic in that he believes he is following his fantasy and there is another dialogue going on along side reality..if that makes sense.. like another conversation in his head.

    this doesn't mean he is crazy though..he knows exactly what he is doing..the fantasy is his game he makes up as he goes along....he adheres to it because it's HIS game and no one elses..

    it's all BS.

    a sadist is a sadist is a sadist.

    mOO
     
  19. sunshineray

    sunshineray Well-Known Member

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    45* around here, in the Northeast, by the shore, in the middle of February would feel like Spring has sprung. Especially if there was little to no wind.
     
  20. Alethea

    Alethea Verified Attorney

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    Great post. Looking back at historical serial killers (I don't want to call them "historic" serial killers!), signatures are often things like posing the body after death, cleaning the body, the specific order of doing things (binding, etc.). Think about it this way: your signature in handwriting is unique and it's something above and beyond just writing your name. The cursive and flourishes are not necessary but they are part of how you identify yourself. It is similar for criminal signatures.
     
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