Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #135

Discussion in 'Located Persons Discussion' started by Tricia, Apr 22, 2019.

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  1. Sincerely

    Sincerely Well-Known Member

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    I don’t take time to watch videos typically but I’m glad I did watch this one. I have a better visual of the area. I really believe if BG walked the road he would have stood out. I could be wrong but it doesn’t seem to be an area where people are seen walking the side of the road. IMO. The back of the cemetery seems to be extremely challenging to get through. But that view is coming from someone who doesn’t like to walk through areas like that. Thanks for posting.
     


  2. Awsi Dooger

    Awsi Dooger Well-Known Member

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    Good video. I was surprised I hadn't seen it. The standout aspect to me was that the abandoned CPS building wasn't a thing in this case yet when he filmed that video in May 2017, so he drove smack past it without focusing the camera on it. In fact, he aimed toward the opposite side of the road. The CPS building was visible only briefly.

    But the video does depict the long walk required from cemetery to CPS building along County Road 300. Seems kind of doubtful as opposed to remaining in the woods as long as possible.

    I regret not taking a quick look at the cemetery. But I remember why I didn't go over there. I was certain I'd scale the fence and go down to the crime scene. That's the same thing I did at Nicole's condo in Brentwood when visiting all the OJ sites in early September 1995, not long before the verdict.
     
  3. Rosegold68

    Rosegold68 Well-Known Member

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    A guy who has been in and out of prison certainly matches up to what LE said about the perp being ‘in plain sight’
     
  4. SMK777

    SMK777 Well-Known Member

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    Exactly. Just not in the way they had anticipated.
     
  5. SMK777

    SMK777 Well-Known Member

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    I think part of the reason I’m holding out hope that JBC is responsible for the Delphi murders—although I have some considerable doubt — is because I’m fearful that if he’s not, this crime may not be solved.
     
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  6. Yemelyan

    Yemelyan Well-Known Member

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    I have two thoughts on this...

    The first is that IMO not all criminologists agree that signatures are defined by repetition. Let's say you have a person who fantasizes about abducting and killing a victim and eventually they carry out their fantasy for the first time. During their time with their victim, they engage in some behaviors that were wholly unnecessary to complete the crime, but fulfilled some deep-seated psychological need that reflects why they started fantasizing about murder in the first place. Let's say, for the sake of argument, the behavior they engage in has to do with binding and restraining the victim in a particular way and ritualistic cutting of the victim's hair. Now let's say that due to great and timely police work, plus a bit of luck, this killer is captured before he can fulfill his urge to murder again. Does that mean that the bondage and hair cutting were not signatures? I suppose Douglas would say they are not, since there was never another crime for it to appear. But some criminologists would say yes, they are signatures - they are a personation, or external manifestation, of the psychological need that drove the killer to commit murder in the first place and they were not at all necessary to complete the crime. And even though it occurred only once you can recognize the linkage between the behaviors and the killer's psyche.

    The second thought I have is that Robert Ives said in his interview "I am not the best history-of-serial-killers person" to qualify his remarks on signatures. So he's letting us know that he may or may not be using the term signatures exactly as a profiler or criminalist would and he recognizes the deficiency of his knowledge on this point. Furthermore, he makes it clear that he is thinking of these "unique circumstances of the crime" (his words) in terms of the prospective view that they may come up again in a future crime, not that they are known signatures that have been linked to a past one.

    Source for his comments on not being an expert on serial killers and that he thinks one or more of the "unique circumstances" could pop up again: Delphi Murders 3 Signatures: Robert Ives Interview Transcript from 'Down the Hill' Podcast - CrimeLights
     
  7. sandy_80

    sandy_80 On Time Out

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    ..I don't think this what was implied by them..I believe they mean by ( signature ) is something that would set this killer from another ..what he did there he left as his signature .. his mark
    regarding whether these signatures can occur again in a future crime .. that's something that doesnt seem likely if the killer is following the media and doesnt want to be detected as a serial killer
     
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  8. SMK777

    SMK777 Well-Known Member

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    BBM
    Very good clarification of the issue.
     
  9. Yemelyan

    Yemelyan Well-Known Member

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    You could be right that this is what Ives meant by signature...something unique about the crime that seemed to him different or odd and that he believed could occur again if the particular person responsible for Delphi killed again. But being "unique" is not the definition of a signature that criminologists use.

    So it would not be true, as far as I understand it, that if we were talking about the actual criminal definition of signature, that a killer could consciously change it, like how he might change aspects of MO to avoid detection, for example. The reason is that, by definition, true signatures are done almost ritualistically or on a level that the offender cannot consciously control, because they represent the linkage between his psychosexual response and the violence/power/control that he is perpetrating on the victim. It would be like saying to a regular person "just decide that you're not going to be turned on by what turns you on anymore."

    However, we truly don't know if these things Ives is talking about are actual signatures or just weird things about the crime that he personally hadn't seen at any other crimes before.
     
  10. HistoryNut

    HistoryNut Well-Known Member

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    I know the FBI was involved, at least in the beginning. Does anyone know if they ever released an official profile of the killer? I haven’t been able to find one.
     
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  11. MistyWaters

    MistyWaters Well-Known Member

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    Only the typical behavioural changes was issued by the FBI -
    https://www.wrtv.com/news/crime/delphi-indiana-what-to-look-for-in-a-delphi-suspect

    County Sheriff answers double homicide questions from readers | Carroll County Comet
    Q. Why have you never released the FBI’s suspect profile to the public?

    A. It has been discussed with the FBI, but again, it is currently felt it is close to the evidentiary element.
     
  12. SMK777

    SMK777 Well-Known Member

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    I’ve never been able to find one in my online searches.:(

    A real shame, because FBI profiles are often stunningly accurate and shocking in their precision.

    I recall reading a true crime book about a high school girl who murdered a classmate in the 1980s. The FBI profile of the killer had predicted it would be a female classmate (totally unknown detail at the time); they described her activities and where she would fit in the social hierarchy; they even predicted she would be the youngest child in a large, Catholic family — which she was. It was stunning, amazing.

    Why would the FBI not release the profile? They surely had to have composed one?
     
  13. SMK777

    SMK777 Well-Known Member

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    Hmm. So they have a profile for FBI and LE to work with, but are afraid there is too much detail to be released to the public? :confused:
     
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  14. Inthedetails

    Inthedetails Well-Known Member

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    When this case is finally solved, the profiling, evidence, investigation, etc. is going to be fascinating for WSers to see, imo. We know this case so well, but we don't know what LE knows. I think it will be an education.

    jmo
     
  15. Yemelyan

    Yemelyan Well-Known Member

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    I'm guessing, yes. In most investigations that I know of, at most a partial profile was released prior to apprehension of the person responsible, never the full one. JMO.

    In the Evansdale case for example, a partial profile was released.
     
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  16. SMK777

    SMK777 Well-Known Member

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    I just hope that it actually does get solved. :(
     
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  17. SMK777

    SMK777 Well-Known Member

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    BBM Yes, just found it:

    The offender blends in with and may be part of the Evansdale, Bremer and surrounding communities. It is unlikely that the offender is a transient or someone who was merely traveling or ‘passing through’ the area,” according to the site. The suspect likely used “quiet coercion” to gain the girls’ compliance into leaving Meyers Lake, using a ruse or threats of violence.

    Investigators Release Suspect Profile in Murder of Evansdale Cousins | who13.com

    If we saw a profile of the Delphi killer saying something like:

    He is likely to be a citizen of Delphi, holding professional degrees and employed in a white collar profession—(ie, LE said it would shock people)

    we would know that ruled out JBC.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2021
  18. SeekingJana

    SeekingJana Well-Known Member

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    With an apology for probably stating what you all likely know, I still think it's important to remember why we have FBI behavioral science profilers working with LE when they ask for help with a crime.

    It's not for the purpose of telling the public what the FBI profile indicated. The total profile is probably never given to the requesting LE agency UNLESS that agency has a Psychological Sciences unit on board already. Terms are used which can be misleading.
    ALL crimes involving abduction and coercion of a victim or victims contain " signature" behaviors specific to that kidnapping/ murder, and the choices the killer made.
    We can project that if the killer isn't caught, the next kidnapping and murder by the same criminal will have some of the same elements IF opportunity presents itself to the killer.

    <modsnip: Off topic> I wish Libby and Abby had stayed in a populated area of the park. Did their killer stalk them, and if so, for how long/ how far? Or was it a crime of opportunity only? I believe it was a combo of both, because it's likely few double murders of minors occur in the area.

    I'm going to tread carefully here as it's an open investigation which is unsolved and there are facts, and there are rumors. I have been extremely careful to stay away from anything which is a rumor. I'm not on any SM accounts, and never have been.

    Using common sense reasoning, it's
    likely one or both Delphi girls were not killed immediately. There was a period of time when their killer was committing acts which ARE signatures.
    Likely, the acting CSI investigators and the FBI have precise models of whether the plan was to keep one or both girls alive in a dwelling or out in the open (which is, of course, quite risky and a sign of a disorganized kidnapper/ killer).
    In hindsight, what they are saying now is that they have all but the physical killer locked down. They know what he did and how he did it, and the girls' video and audio has helped this case greatly.

    I gave my opinion of the bridge video about a year ago, maybe longer. The killer, if he is BG, is NOT old. He's not a teen, but he's a grown man who is agile and strong. He's wearing layers of clothing to partially disguise his size, and the cap is also a partial disguise, plus it draws our eyes downward from his eyes and face to his bulky looking body.

    His gait is slightly pigeon toed, possibly a means to securely cross that cursed bridge. It is NOT his normal stance or gait. His shoulders are rounded abnormally. It is not natural to walk with hands in pockets unless he had an injury or deformity on one hand which would have been an identifying feature or if he was holding a weapon or weapons in his pockets. IDK which, but believe one or the other is true. Maybe one hand had a missing digit or partially missing digit and the other held a weapon. I believe his thinking had been disordered for a significant period of time to cause him to be on the fringe of society, and if he held a job, it was a low skill, low paying job, perhaps temporary work here and there.

    I do not believe he is disabled in any significant way physically, but since mentally healthy people do not kidnap and kill teen girls, he obviously has at least mental disorganization, criminality, and may be a stalking type of killer. I've always wondered if he's a transient who went to places like parks and playgrounds looking for victims, or if he is a local who had stalked those two girls specifically. The FBI likely knows, but I don't. I believe he will be arrested, and that a factor not anticipated has caused a delay in his apprehension.
     
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  19. Kinners_D

    Kinners_D New Member

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    Is it possible that he was concerned about identifying marks on his hands (tattoos), he seems to have gone to significant lengths to hide his appearance so hiding his hands in case his tattoos were seen/captured on video doesn't seem like a huge leap?
     
  20. Barbieshell

    Barbieshell Always be kind folks YOLO

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    In a word - yes, I'd imagine so.
     
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