Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #135

Discussion in 'Located Persons Discussion' started by Tricia, Apr 22, 2019.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. SeekingJana

    SeekingJana Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    5,497
    Likes Received:
    8,177
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Yes, that was what I was hypothesizing. I have no solid evidence of this, but it seems reasonable that identifying differences in body structure would have been hidden. Or maybe his hands were cold and it's as simple as that. I don't know, of course.
    Thanks for reading my post with my thoughts, and responding. :)
     


  2. SMK777

    SMK777 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,592
    Likes Received:
    13,023
    Trophy Points:
    113
    First of all, thanks for your excellent and intriguing analysis.:D

    I agree with this intuition. What do you suppose made Carter insinuate that he would be a prominent person, and that everyone would be shocked?
    I sure hope so, because it’s not looking good at 4+ years on….what do you suppose that factor might be? Can you give an example?
     
  3. evilwise

    evilwise Unknown Member

    Messages:
    1,153
    Likes Received:
    8,383
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I wish Chadwell had posted more pictures from his campsites that could be analyzed.

    The more I revisit this Delphi case as more and more amateur videographers document the environs I become more and more convinced that the killer had been observing the bridge from a distance for some time and might be a person who enjoys that kind of predatory stalking in and of itself and spends significant time doing it.

    Chadwell's social media posts don't necessarily suggest he does that but his patterns of activity seem compatible with it.
     
  4. SeekingJana

    SeekingJana Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    5,497
    Likes Received:
    8,177
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I could be wrong and the killer might be a " prominent person".
    I believe it was to give false hope and a sense of security to the killer. " They're looking at church leaders, so I'm safe" kind of false reassurance. People tend to talk more, socialize more when they don't think they're under a microscope.

    The problem in deliberately saying something which is possibly or likely untrue is that mistrust grows between the LE and the local citizens.
    They may have reason to think this is a homicidal businessman or a lone eccentric heir to a fortune they know.

    For example, MY small town in Texas had a double homicide of two young adult females committed by a middle aged man from a VERY prominent family. He lived alone in a designated historically significant home of his ancestors, even. The entire case facts are sickening beyond belief.

    If we're not lucky, his conviction is going to be overturned on appeal a few years into his sentencing and incarceration, as the strong conviction is in jeopardy right now. Money buys the best bulldog appeal attorneys, of course. COVID messed up the entire timelines. One of the problems in the case was that both ladies' families were not advocates for them, and their own mothers spoke ill of them to our official newspaper, on record. Sometimes, families aren't exactly like your family or my family...

    I'm going to be as careful as I can with the next part of your questioning because, again, I may be wrong. I do not have any reason to think that any DNA collected in any part of this case was collected incorrectly or contaminated post collection. That's important to keep in mind. Sometimes, DNA can be very hard to source well enough to present in court as evidence. There can be multiple reasons for this, but two are- if the jury simply doesn't understand the science in cases such as the presence of genetic chimerism and micro-chimerism, which are quite rare.
    Another factor which makes DNA evidence questionable to a jury is if the lab reports show the presence of more than one person's DNA being present on the body of one victim when only one person is the suspect in the crimes against two victims. Sometimes, the explanations of how the DNA is co- mingled but not contaminated by a lab can do great harm. I have some concerns that DNA evidence may not be helpful if/ when this case goes to trial. That means that all other types of evidence will have to be strong enough to overcome the legal standard of " Reasonable Doubt" to obtain a conviction that's upheld on appeal. There may be a gulf between circumstantial evidence and provable evidence at present.
     
  5. HistoryNut

    HistoryNut Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    242
    Likes Received:
    970
    Trophy Points:
    93
    You are right; they are usually very accurate. I cannot understand why one has not been issued unless the killer has even stumped the FBI.
     
  6. SMK777

    SMK777 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,592
    Likes Received:
    13,023
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Interesting, all! Thanks very, VERY much.
     
  7. minneolo

    minneolo Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    76
    Likes Received:
    1,064
    Trophy Points:
    83
    As to the discussion of the nature / significance of signatures - I think that many people greatly over-estimate the “strange, odd” nature of potential signatures in large part because the COD has never been released.

    Easy to let imaginations run wild and suppose all sorts of things.

    My own personal theory is that the “signature behavior” in question may not be particularly grotesque (beyond of course the grotesque-ness of child murder) but rather show a difference in his attacks on Abby vs. Libby. I suspect this was a sexually motivated crime, and that he treated the girls at least somewhat differently.

    I am also new to this thread, and I’d be curious if anyone could summarize the prevailing theories as to why COD has not been released, even at 4+ years post crime. Seems that keeping COD confidential is a less-typical (but certainly not rare) practice by LE - and I’d be curious what sleuthers have concluded about this choice.
     
  8. SMK777

    SMK777 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,592
    Likes Received:
    13,023
    Trophy Points:
    113
    The only thing I have surmised, is that not revealing COD ensures that a confession from the true killer would have to have that information coming directly from himself. ( If they make it public, and someone says, I shot them —well, that was in the papers etc…)
     
  9. somequestions

    somequestions Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    998
    Likes Received:
    3,730
    Trophy Points:
    93
    I think LE has an opinion based on a profile. But that could also be why the case is still unsolved. Their investigation and the tips they choose to investigate may follow this profile. I definitely do not think they investigate every tip they receive, especially if there is no identifying information like license plate or name and address.

    In any case that goes on for years, it is interesting to think about whether the case is unsolved because the person or persons thought to have committed the crime simply have not been caught or because the entire time police were looking for the wrong person. The assumption I think is probably that LE is on the right track and it is only a matter of time before the case is solved.

    But the 15 or 20 year cases.....I really wonder.
     
  10. JnRyan

    JnRyan Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,434
    Likes Received:
    16,958
    Trophy Points:
    113
    That is some interesting insight.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 22, 2021
  11. JnRyan

    JnRyan Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,434
    Likes Received:
    16,958
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I'm noticing some LE are conspicuous by their absence. ISP 1st Sgt Jerry Holeman was the ISP lead investigator and he had stated he had a team of Delphi PD, CCSO deputies and ISP detectives working with the FBI. Since the April 2019 PC I have not seen him since. Since ISP Sgt Kim Riley retired his replacement has not stepped into the vacuum left by his departure. Maybe it is my imagination, but even less of ISP Superintendent Carter. Every thing now seems to run through Sheriff Tobe Leazenby. I'm wondering if the April 2019 PC was not the last great effort by the 'task force' effort. IOW, ISP Superintendent Carter could no longer justify the manpower resources to the governor, attorney general or whoever he answered to in the capital when there are crimes around the state like Flora fires. I wouldn't doubt but it is a CCSO detective working the case for part of the week with POC's he or she can call in the ISP and FBI in the capital or nearby Lafayette. They say it is not a cold case, but I'll bet the temperature has dropped significantly for the last year. It might even be a significant factor why there hasn't been a press conference in 2020 or 2021. Any press conference now with all involved can probably be held in the sheriff's office. No big venue needed.
     
  12. Sillybilly

    Sillybilly Administrator Staff Member Administrator

    Messages:
    30,148
    Likes Received:
    74,354
    Trophy Points:
    113
    ADMIN NOTE:

    Many members don't seem to realize that off topic posts are a violation of TOS. Stay focused on this case without derailing the thread by introducing issues that are not directly related to it.

    Also, to quote from Tiff's earlier note:

    "unless the post is specific to JBCII as a possible connection to the Delphi case, please use the Lafayette thread for general discussion of him or the case involving the 9 year old victim."
     
  13. mekeritrig

    mekeritrig Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    70
    Likes Received:
    1,048
    Trophy Points:
    83
    As recently as February, local news reported that there is still a multi-jurisdictional team working this case. Any sized team working on the case is going to look small though compared to the resources that were working it immediately after the murders in 2017. There were at least 100 FBI agents in Delphi at that point which has obviously dwindled in the time since. It seems that there are two local and two state detectives still assigned to the case from what was recently reported by WTHI-10, which is nothing to scoff at for a 4-year-old unsolved murder case.

    Local, state, and federal resources are being used to investigate every tip that is received. There is still a dedicated, multi-jurisdictional team working on this case every day, which includes two Carroll County detectives, two Indiana State Police detectives and other law enforcement officers. (BBM)
    Link to story

    Quote from a February interview with the retired special agent in charge of the FBI's Indianapolis Division, Jay Abbott, who lead the FBI in assisting local law enforcement in 2017 when the investigation was at its peak in terms of manpower.

    "I will tell you that there were those days when the FBI certainly had more personnel in and around Delphi than anyone else in law enforcement. In some days, I think we were over one hundred personnel that I was trying to keep track of."
    Link to interview (quote above is at 1:00 min mark)

    I would be hesitant to suggest that this case is going cold given the sheer amount of tips that the police have received over the years and the continuing support for having a multi-jurisdictional task force with detectives dedicated to the case. The ISP and Carroll County are still clearly committed to working through the mountains of information they've collected on this case, and a lack of a press conference doesn't mean that's not the case.

     
    Si2Mo, Sincerely, Seenit and 10 others like this.
  14. FromGermany1

    FromGermany1 Don't like it, but have to wait.

    Messages:
    290
    Likes Received:
    2,372
    Trophy Points:
    93
    bbm

    This (A) encourages me to believe, that LE meanwhile know the killer (since 2019) and a profile would be so inevitably specific, that it would give away, who he is. Who he is, is not longer the problem for LE/FBI, but where he had been on Febr 13th, 2017, around 2:30pm, that is the problem. Maybe, they are also hoping to get an accomplice, if he had one (and I think, he had probably).
    ETA: A profile of someone like JBC wouldn't give away too much, in comparison to a profile of another person and the specifics.
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2021
  15. SMK777

    SMK777 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,592
    Likes Received:
    13,023
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I’m just trying to grasp how they could conclude it was a specific individual and at the same time not be able to place him at the crime scene on that date and within that time period. Wouldn’t they know it was him through the bridge audio and video?
     
  16. Yemelyan

    Yemelyan Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,501
    Likes Received:
    22,003
    Trophy Points:
    113
    A profile is developed not in order for the public to read it and call in with tips but as a tool to guide LE in solving the crime. They usually do not release any of it IMO but may release partial bits of it if its determined that it might be helpful. In both Evansdale and Delphi, a very general list of profile-like info was released...he may have changed behaviors since the crime, etc. Things that are so general that they are likely to be true of most murderers after the fact.
     
    Sunny123, Si2Mo, Seenit and 6 others like this.
  17. Yemelyan

    Yemelyan Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,501
    Likes Received:
    22,003
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Snipped by me....

    I just wanted to point out that the statement about everyone being shocked when the killer is finally apprehended did not include anything about "because we believe the killer is a prominent person." The prominent person interpretation is just speculation as the people who discuss this case tried to figure out what scenario could possibly shock everyone.

    My personal view is that the statement reflects LE's belief that the killer is local-ish. In these smaller communities, there would be general ideas like "it's not one of us - he has to be a long haul truck driver/transient passing through/homeless person camped in the woods."

    So I think in essence LE was saying "you're going to be shocked because we think it is one of you." It could be the most socially marginal person, it could be a person from as far away as Kokomo or Lafayette, but it's one of you.

    JMO.
     
  18. MistyWaters

    MistyWaters Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    9,401
    Likes Received:
    46,262
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Further to your comments, I thought Leazenby’s response to this question below was interesting. I was under the impression ISP had taken lead in this investigation but that may’ve been due to the prominence of DC as spokesman.

    Feb/2021
    County Sheriff answers double homicide questions from readers | Carroll County Comet
    Q. Why did you and the prosecutor choose to do an interview with Headline News (HLN) yet ISP said there would not be a press conference this year? Again, who is leading the case? ISP, county sheriff, FBI or county prosecutor? You can see the confusion for the public and the mixed signals, so to speak. Expand on who runs what parts of the investigation. Who determines when there is a press conference?

    A. In a general sense, the leading agency, is the agency who routinely patrols and responds to calls for police services in a given jurisdiction. In this case, my professional opinion is that this crime occurred “in the county” and we are considered the “lead” agency. ISP, FBI, Prosecutor’s Office, Investigator, and all other agencies are considered “assist” agencies, coming on board to “assist” us. Being a small agency, we frequently rely on larger agencies who have many more resources (lab, manpower, technical assistance, etc.) to help with investigations. This is commonplace throughout the United States. Smaller agencies will sometimes “relinquish” an investigation to a larger, “assisting” agency, such as ISP, but I feel strongly that since this crime occurred in the county, I feel we are the lead but with many partners. Additionally, when decisions, which we feel are major to the case, are being looked at, our investigative partners are consulted, like a huge “think tank”, and we all reach a decision which all agree upon.
     
  19. MsBetsy

    MsBetsy Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    18,749
    Likes Received:
    164,774
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I've always thought he had his hands in his pockets because he was getting ready to pull out a weapon. I don't think he knew he was being recorded.
     
  20. mekeritrig

    mekeritrig Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    70
    Likes Received:
    1,048
    Trophy Points:
    83
    I agree, you see the same kind of pose all the time when CCTV images of robbery suspects are put out. Head down, hands in pockets, usually clutching a weapon of a threatening object of some kind.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page



  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice