Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #135

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Thanks. I honestly forget to check whether I'm on Delphi or Lexington thread. I'll try to be more attentive.

jmo

I know exactly what you mean, me too and the topic of JBC is naturally intermingled. His prison track record is disgusting, virtually continuously in and out. Whether or not he’s the Delphi killer it appears to me he’s quite comfortable with life in jail or prison, sadly he requires victims in order to facilitate it. Too bad he couldn’t just stand at the prison gate and ask to be let in. :(
 
I know exactly what you mean, me too and the topic of JBC is naturally intermingled. His prison track record is disgusting, virtually continuously in and out. Whether or not he’s the Delphi killer it appears to me he’s quite comfortable with life in jail or prison, sadly he requires victims in order to facilitate it. Too bad he couldn’t just stand at the prison gate and ask to be let in. :(
My thoughts exactly. I really don't see any long-term possibility that he would ever stay out of jail. Nothing changed his behavior or deterred him.

jmo
 
I finally feel caught up. As far as an investigation goes, a timeline of events are extremely vital. What is critical here is this individual knew the girls were alone and dropped off. He also knew they would be picked up. Given the picking up, he was limited. To me, this tells a lot. I can understand the 'local' focus. The other is the use of 'guys'. This is generally often used by a parent as a shortcut or teacher/coach. It just an opinion.
 
or like by someone who wants to start a youth group...
There is something about the use of 'guys' that stands out to me. It seems like a term you would use after you knew someone, especially of female gender.
 
I finally feel caught up. As far as an investigation goes, a timeline of events are extremely vital. What is critical here is this individual knew the girls were alone and dropped off. He also knew they would be picked up. Given the picking up, he was limited. To me, this tells a lot. I can understand the 'local' focus. The other is the use of 'guys'. This is generally often used by a parent as a shortcut or teacher/coach. It just an opinion.

LE have never released information to indicate the killer knew the girls were dropped off and were to be picked up or if he initially noticed them later, possibly taking photos on the bridge. The High Bridge trail is at the end of Delphi’s interconnected Historic Trail System that’s within walking distance to the town and also several adjacent properties. So it’s not only accessible by vehicle.

ETA - Timeline hasn’t been fully released the general public -

County Sheriff answers double homicide questions from readers | Carroll County Comet
Q. It has been stated in a press conference that “it was all over by 3:30 on Feb 13.” This statement was based on what information?

A. Evidence. I do not recall a specific time though but rather a time line.

Q. Has it been determined the girls were killed where they were found?

A. Based on information known, yes.
 
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I finally feel caught up. As far as an investigation goes, a timeline of events are extremely vital. What is critical here is this individual knew the girls were alone and dropped off. He also knew they would be picked up. Given the picking up, he was limited. To me, this tells a lot. I can understand the 'local' focus. The other is the use of 'guys'. This is generally often used by a parent as a shortcut or teacher/coach. It just an opinion.

Based on my life-long experience as a Midwesterner, the term “guys” is used by nearly everyone there, not just by parents or a teacher/coach.
 
There is something about the use of 'guys' that stands out to me. It seems like a term you would use after you knew someone, especially of female gender.

I may not be traditional however I use “guys” all the time for all kinds of things.

I call my dogs guys. I call my dog obedience students guys. I’ve called kids on the street guys. I’ve walked into work and said Hey good morning guys. I call kids, adults, men, women and all kinds of animals guys. There is nothing special about me using Guys in my day to day speech.

I’m not stuck on the use of Guys as anything special. It’s casual as opposed to something more formal. He didn’t say “Girls…down the hill or Children…down the hill.

I think that piece of audio was publicized to give just enough info as the deepness and timbre of voice. There may be something unique in how he says Guys and linguistically I am sure it’s been analyzed to death.

MOO
 
Sheriff Leazenby continues to answer double homicide questions | Carroll County Comet
Q. What elements of this case make it so difficult to solve?

A. Several, however the presiding factor seems to be that whomever is responsible has never discussed it with anyone.

That was the most valuable response in the Q&A series, IMO, especially the way Leazenby worded it. The response seemingly destroys the false alibi theory, at least in terms of a false alibi that has been identified as such. Those who think law enforcement knows who did it are forced to believe a family member or friend knows darn well what happened and have intentionally provided a bad account, one that law enforcement has identified as a lie. Leazenby all but says that is not the case.

I suppose it's possible law enforcement has somebody in mind, and they believe the alibi provided by family members/friends is sincere but simply wrong.

Far more likely, however, they simply have no clue. That is easy to piece together by relying on Leazenby alone. If they go back and forth on one perpetrator or multiple perpetrators, that's not great indication they have nailed this down. Likewise when Leazenby says he has several suspects in mind that is more revealing toward how a small town sheriff like Leazenby thinks -- it has to be one of these local guys I don't trust -- than positive indications toward the status of the case.

I wrote this elsewhere last week: Stranger on a trail. If everything else about this case is thrown away or totally ignored, we are left with those four words as big picture reality. And if those four words summarize this case law enforcement is not supposed to know the identity, and do not.
 
What stands out as abnormal to me is the way he is walking like "on a mission" across a bridge like that. Not taking in the view, not taking pictures, not seeming to be enjoying himself or even nervous. Just coming at them with his head down. Totally strange demeanor.

There is nothing to see at that stage of the bridge. All focus is simply on reaching the end. The scenic areas above Deer Creek are long gone. Then for a while beyond Deer Creek at least it is high and open on both sides. But by the time you are approaching the end of the bridge, the elevation is lower meaning it is far easier for straggler trees on both sides to grow tall enough to impede the view. That's exactly the situational reality. It's like a funnel of uninteresting stick trees intruding on both sides:

<modsnip>

We have two seconds of video. He happens to be looking downward at that point because he sees a small disturbance in the planks, one that requires a step across with his right leg. I keep thinking how our perspective is totally thrown off by that aspect. It has led to analysis of his gait, like physical abnormalities and so forth. Meanwhile if he's not stepping across that abnormality he's considerably more likely to be walking straight and with his head up, etc.

I'm not thrilled with small sample obsession. Yesterday Phil Mickelson bogeyed the first hole and Brooks Koepka birdied. The next hole Mickelson birdied and Koepka double bogeyed. If you take either one of them as standalone then you could write a long emphatic article on how instructive and conclusive it is.
 
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There is nothing to see at that stage of the bridge. All focus is simply on reaching the end. The scenic areas above Deer Creek are long gone. Then for a while beyond Deer Creek at least it is high and open on both sides. But by the time you are approaching the end of the bridge, the elevation is lower meaning it is far easier for straggler trees on both sides to grow tall enough to impede the view. That's exactly the situational reality. It's like a funnel of uninteresting stick trees intruding on both sides:

imgur.com

We have two seconds of video. He happens to be looking downward at that point because he sees a small disturbance in the planks, one that requires a step across with his right leg. I keep thinking how our perspective is totally thrown off by that aspect. It has led to analysis of his gait, like physical abnormalities and so forth. Meanwhile if he's not stepping across that abnormality he's considerably more likely to be walking straight and with his head up, etc.

I'm not thrilled with small sample obsession. Yesterday Phil Mickelson bogeyed the first hole and Brooks Koepka birdied. The next hole Mickelson birdied and Koepka double bogeyed. If you take either one of them as standalone then you could write a long emphatic article on how instructive and conclusive it is.

But do people cross that bridge just to get to the other side? I thought it was more of a daring thing to do or to take pictures....that sort of thing. Like Abby's head is down, but you can tell she is slowly walking and enjoying herself. She is being careful and carefree at the same time. You can tell she also looked around and stopped and was on the bridge for a happy, adventurous time.... BG is a whole different vibe. Just using the bridge as a means to get to them and of course they picked up on that. So scary.
 
ETA - Timeline hasn’t been fully released the general public -

County Sheriff answers double homicide questions from readers | Carroll County Comet
Q. It has been stated in a press conference that “it was all over by 3:30 on Feb 13.” This statement was based on what information?

A. Evidence. I do not recall a specific time though but rather a time line.
That 'timeline' is interesting. I know I'm going to sound picky, but I'm an auditor by profession and know there is value in the followup question(s). Here I wonder what is meant by "over". I believe, if I recall correctly, the posters and/or billboards give a time of ~2:30PM when the killer is caught on video on the bridge. So if one goes straight away from there to the crime scene, I would imagine they are all at the CS in the 2:50-3:00 timeframe. So does "over" mean that the killer was still at the CS at 3:30PM and spent 30-40 minutes involved with the girls - i.e., he had either just killed them by 3:30 or was doing other things at the CS after he killed them? Or did he kill them almost immediately arriving at the CS, walked to his vehicle and was driving out of the area by 3:30? (Based on Liberty's father trying to reach her between 3:00 and 3:11, I tend to believe it was the later.) That 30-40 minutes may not seem like much, but it affects how this killer did this and maybe important details as to the nature and methods of the killer. In any event, the fact that LE has timeline with an end time of 3:30 makes me believe LE has some very telling evidence at the CS.
 
I may not be traditional however I use “guys” all the time for all kinds of things.

I call my dogs guys. I call my dog obedience students guys. I’ve called kids on the street guys. I’ve walked into work and said Hey good morning guys. I call kids, adults, men, women and all kinds of animals guys. There is nothing special about me using Guys in my day to day speech.

I’m not stuck on the use of Guys as anything special. It’s casual as opposed to something more formal. He didn’t say “Girls…down the hill or Children…down the hill.

I think that piece of audio was publicized to give just enough info as the deepness and timbre of voice. There may be something unique in how he says Guys and linguistically I am sure it’s been analyzed
 
Based on my life-long experience as a Midwesterner, the term “guys” is used by nearly everyone there, not just by parents or a teacher/coach.
I was born and raised in NYC and then in the surrounding suburbs. Everyone used the term ‘guys’ in addressing groups of both males and females. However, here in New Mexico I don’t think it’s a common term.
 
I don't think they are a perfect "science" either, but in some cases they are based on educated psychological conclusions IMO (such as, if an offender uses elaborate bindings or restraints on a very young child, that points to a significant psychological reason - that they did it because they fantasized about bondage - not out of the need to actually restrain the victim, because you would not expect a four year old child, for example, to need to be overpowered/prevented from escaping in the same way an adult would).

I don't put much stock in the profiles that say things like "this offender likely drives a late model sedan that's not well-maintained," when that's not based on anything in witness reports or found at the crime scene. On the other hand, using info about what type of victim was chosen (sex worker vs. young teens hiking in the daylight on a trail, for example), I think can give some insight into who the offender is and how he's selecting his victims.

For me, I don't think profiles are a magic wand that solves crimes in and of themselves. I think they are an investigative tool that narrows the suspect focus.
fine
however ... if they weren't close at all.. they might deviate from the right course right ?
like for ex.. if profile says mostly local.. and they keep focusing on the local theory
and whats with the refusal to release the profile because its considered part of evidence ...
 
I think I see where you are coming from - you are using the term "profile" like LE uses the word "description." A description of a suspect would include things like approximate or known age, weight, height, hair and eye color, clothing worn, ethnicity, etc. It's based on either known facts (they have a video) or witness descriptions (and therefore may be less certain). Of course, for quite a lot of murders LE has no description to work with at all because there were no witnesses to any part of the crime.

An offender profile is something quite different from a description of what the offender is thought to look like. The profile is a tool, designed to aid the investigation, all about how the offender behaves and what that might tell LE about his occupation, motives, etc. You may have heard in previous cases things like "believed to be a power-assertive type of rapist," or "organized killer." Those are profiling terms, considered older-style today, but generated based on offender behaviors.

There are different approaches behind making profiles, but the FBI uses a behavioral method that analyzes primarily the crime scene and the act itself and then analyzes offender behavior and offender-victim interactions. As I said in my first response, the things in the Delphi video that would be of interest to a profiler IMO would be how he carries himself across the bridge, what he says to the girls and how he says it, what he does to take control of them. As an example, if he pretended to be a cop (I'm not saying this is true, just using an example), that would be a fact that a profiler might use to say - this offender may fantasize about the power that police have. He probably doesn't have power in his own life. He may have committed domestic abuse against children or partners in the past. He may have tried to become a police officer at one point and failed, he may have attempted to work in a LE-adjacent field like security guard in the past, etc. If, instead of putting in a power act, the Delphi killer asked them if they wanted to see puppies down the hill (again, not what I think happened, but for the sake of argument), then that luring behavior would lead to different conclusions about the offender.

Just hoping to help people understand the difference between a suspect description and an offender profile. I do not claim that profiling is an exact science for solving crimes/linking related crimes. You can't make a profile without knowing what was at the crime scene, so none of us here could even attempt to make an amateur version of the profile.

I think we have a different opinion about what a profile can include. I think a profile can include a description. If a profile said LE was looking for a white middle-aged man who is uneducated, that is a description within a profile. In my opinion a profile can have many different facets from physical description to geographic area to human behavioral traits. I would hope that most profiles would include a description about who LE thinks the person is who committed the crime or what are they looking for???? If you do not know who you are looking for, how are you going to find them?

This is a forum for discussion so I submitted my partial "profile" of Abby and Libby's killer. This is my opinion. I know I cannot come up with a complete profile because I do not know all the information LE knows about the case.

I think LE needs to stay away from labeling the killer. Or else, for example, any crime that happens against a child within a 60 mile area of Delphi is going to have everyone thinking each time that the bridge guy has finally been caught. I think it is better to focus on the details that make this case different from other cases.
 
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