Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #136

[bradfordsleuth]

Four years is a long time in a case with audio, video, two sketches and no arrest.

I think about these girls every single day.

It's sad for me to come here each time, hopeful to see an 'ARREST' banner for this case at the top of the page and its not there. Yet.

Here are my collective thoughts after reading some of the recent posts on this thread.

I just try to keep replaying in my mind what Doug Carter said at the presser on April 22, 2019 - over two years into the case.

"Please be patient with us, please. We are just beginning. We are just now beginning, and I can tell you on behalf of The Sheriff and The Police Chief, and so many other partners that have stood with us over this period of time, that we will NOT stop! "

I have said this before in the past and I will say it again, I do not believe that this is a cold case. If it were cold, I think that LE would have had a 2020 and 2021 anniversary presser to either release another teeny tiny tidbit of info to generate new tips, or perhaps to try to rattle a cage by again talking 'directly to the killer' like they did in 2019.

We know that after almost two years, they have a different rendering that they presented to the public.

We know that they have now definitively confirmed that the person in the video is the same person that we hear in the audio, whereas previously, they had been inconclusive about stating this publicly more than once.

Something changed.

We don't know if LE was now 'just beginning' by looking at the case from a completely new perspective because they perhaps finally eliminated a suspect?

They have stated many times that when they run out of tips, they will start all over again. It is possible that 'the new information and intelligence over time' generated a strategy to go back to all of the sketches drawn the first week and to re-examine again why they were drawn and to find out again exactly what people saw that day and WHO saw the person they have depicted in that sketch.

Perhaps that 'once piece of the puzzle' that they are waiting for is hearing from the person who sat with Master Taylor Bryant to draw the sketch on February 17, 2017?
Police: Sketch of suspect in 2 girls' killings more accurate

If that person provided the details for the sketch three days after the girls were found, then immediately afterwards regretted providing their statement (and the details for the sketch) and went MIA (ie: hiding away in fear, a minor being protected, went transient, deceased etc.)
Maybe what LE needs is some additional proof from that person (that they didn't collect early on) to corroberate that persons' statement of what they witnessed in order to proceed with an arrest?

Just imagine if you were the person who was responsible for providing the details of that sketch and for two years it was ignored (at least publicly - JMO.)

What if the possiblity exists that the person (whom I will reference as a 'witness') has been hiding all along in fear of the killer?

Then one day, over two years later, he/she sees a rendering of the face they clearly remember seeing on Feb 13, 2017 on their TV screen, the sketch they provided the details for....imagine the shock you would feel knowing that LE finally believes you were right all along about what you felt 'needed to be reported'?
'New' Delphi suspect sketch was drawn days after murders of 2 Indiana girls, artist says

Could be that is why D.C. eliminated actually saying at the presser 'we have a witness' - maybe he was hoping the 'witness' was watching and he didn't want to scare them with making that statement public, (since it only appeared in the press release handouts, and then later in the April 23rd clarification that ISP released.) https://carrollcountycalendar.com/2...-release-new-sketch-of-delphi-murder-suspect/

LE repeatedly has stated that 'someone knows who this is'....

In this article below from Feb 12, 2020, Riley states,
"it's kind of like a poker game. You don't want to throw out all your cards at the start."

"We don't want to put out any more information than we feel the public needs to know," he said.

"When we have the person we want, we want to know what they know about the case. … That's why we've held back on the information that we've given out."
Delphi murders: After 3 years, police say case isn't cold

JMO - Kind of odd wording to use if he is referencing the killer. If he was speaking about the killer, wouldn't he say something like, 'when we have the person who did this, we will arrest him', (not just ask him about what he knows about the case?)

Just thinking out loud....
All JMO

 

[CNYDarkStar]

Am I understanding this correctly that essentially what they are looking for from the public is for someone to come to them and tell them who the murderer is? Maybe im misunderstanding? If that is what he meant, what if no one in the public knows? Didn't someone in LE say previously that they don't believe this guy told anyone what he did?

I'm pretty sure that's not what they're saying.
I believe they have a good idea who it is and they're waiting for a better piece of info/evidence to seal the deal.

 

[JnRyan]

He would have had very few options on foot, I've considered Logansport but that's no dice, too far to walk. I just think the risk of being seen was way too high for BG had he walked away. I'd also considered a possible path to Riley Park from the bridge, but there isn't one. His only choices on foot a short distance from the trail were a handful of roads. Nowhere really to hide.
JMO

Walking from and back to Logansport doesn't really seem like a reasonable assumption. That is a 6-8 hour walk one way and going back would be mostly in the dark. And what are the chances a deputy or state police trooper wouldn't stop him. (In VA, if you don't have an ID that can be considered cause to be detained for vagrancy and some rural jurisdictions here have openly stated they enforce it.) At a minimum the LE person might have asked for an ID and then there is a reliable witness who might make note of his clothing. No, I agree, not likely at all. Closest walking distance, outside of Delphi itself, is a community of Camden, population ~650. I still believe he drove a vehicle and could have been driving off by as early as 3:15-3:30 PM.

One never knows though. In Eufala OK, Peggy McGuire went missing. Her truck was parked at about 5-6 AM at an isolated rural bar and the man who parked it was seen on surveillance video walking away in a violent rainstorm. If the person who parked is who a lot of folks believe he lived 10 miles from that bar. One motorist thought they saw someone walking on the road in the area and they quickly jumped off the road and that is it.

 

[CNYDarkStar]

Four years is a long time in a case with audio, video, two sketches and no arrest.

I think about these girls every single day.

It's sad for me to come here each time, hopeful to see an 'ARREST' banner for this case at the top of the page and its not there. Yet.

Here are my collective thoughts after reading some of the recent posts on this thread.

I just try to keep replaying in my mind what Doug Carter said at the presser on April 22, 2019 - over two years into the case.

"Please be patient with us, please. We are just beginning. We are just now beginning, and I can tell you on behalf of The Sheriff and The Police Chief, and so many other partners that have stood with us over this period of time, that we will NOT stop! "

I have said this before in the past and I will say it again, I do not believe that this is a cold case. If it were cold, I think that LE would have had a 2020 and 2021 anniversary presser to either release another teeny tiny tidbit of info to generate new tips, or perhaps to try to rattle a cage by again talking 'directly to the killer' like they did in 2019.

We know that after almost two years, they have a different rendering that they presented to the public.

We know that they have now definitively confirmed that the person in the video is the same person that we hear in the audio, whereas previously, they had been inconclusive about stating this publicly more than once.

Something changed.

We don't know if LE was now 'just beginning' by looking at the case from a completely new perspective because they perhaps finally eliminated a suspect?

They have stated many times that when they run out of tips, they will start all over again. It is possible that 'the new information and intelligence over time' generated a strategy to go back to all of the sketches drawn the first week and to re-examine again why they were drawn and to find out again exactly what people saw that day and WHO saw the person they have depicted in that sketch.

Perhaps that 'once piece of the puzzle' that they are waiting for is hearing from the person who sat with Master Taylor Bryant to draw the sketch on February 17, 2017?
Police: Sketch of suspect in 2 girls' killings more accurate

If that person provided the details for the sketch three days after the girls were found, then immediately afterwards regretted providing their statement (and the details for the sketch) and went MIA (ie: hiding away in fear, a minor being protected, went transient, deceased etc.)
Maybe what LE needs is some additional proof from that person (that they didn't collect early on) to corroberate that persons' statement of what they witnessed in order to proceed with an arrest?

Just imagine if you were the person who was responsible for providing the details of that sketch and for two years it was ignored (at least publicly - JMO.)

What if the possiblity exists that the person (whom I will reference as a 'witness') has been hiding all along in fear of the killer?

Then one day, over two years later, he/she sees a rendering of the face they clearly remember seeing on Feb 13, 2017 on their TV screen, the sketch they provided the details for....imagine the shock you would feel knowing that LE finally believes you were right all along about what you felt 'needed to be reported'?
'New' Delphi suspect sketch was drawn days after murders of 2 Indiana girls, artist says

Could be that is why D.C. eliminated actually saying at the presser 'we have a witness' - maybe he was hoping the 'witness' was watching and he didn't want to scare them with making that statement public, (since it only appeared in the press release handouts, and then later in the April 23rd clarification that ISP released.) https://carrollcountycalendar.com/2...-release-new-sketch-of-delphi-murder-suspect/

LE repeatedly has stated that 'someone knows who this is'....

In this article below from Feb 12, 2020, Riley states,
"it's kind of like a poker game. You don't want to throw out all your cards at the start."

"We don't want to put out any more information than we feel the public needs to know," he said.

"When we have the person we want, we want to know what they know about the case. … That's why we've held back on the information that we've given out."
Delphi murders: After 3 years, police say case isn't cold

JMO - Kind of odd wording to use if he is referencing the killer. If he was speaking about the killer, wouldn't he say something like, 'when we have the person who did this, we will arrest him', (not just ask him about what he knows about the case?)

Just thinking out loud....
All JMO

Good points and good observation.

 

[CNYDarkStar]

What tips are being given about a unidentified vehicle other than what LE asked of anyone who was in Delphi the day of the murders who observed a vehicle parked from noon to 5pm? I’d be very surprised if two years later people are still coming toward recalling what they saw parked where, wasting LE’s time and energy.

As for someone who’s viewed as a suspect, if LE didn’t cause the suspicion neither do they have the ability to control what people might think. Viewing this case through the lens of SM is probably far different than from those who are local because they have the distinct advantage of talking amongst one another, which includes talking to LE.

The only point I'm making about the car - and the car aspect only - is that the police (supposedly) asked for the public's help. If they asked then it seems it would be their obligation to give the public an update of some sort. Again, maybe they have and I missed it.

 

[AC4RD]

Four years is a long time in a case with audio, video, two sketches and no arrest ... and I will say it again, I do not believe that this is a cold case. If it were cold, I think that LE would
All JMO

My own JMHO: I agree absolutely; this is *not* a cold case. I think it's pretty obvious that law enforcement is definitely still actively working this case. Four years IS a long time but in this case, I suspect the police will never give up on this case as long as there is the slightest possibility of identifying BG. Like you, I hope constantly to hear that there has been an arrest. I feel sure (MHO) that one day we WILL hear about an arrest.

 

[JnRyan]

ok I'm still on JBC..and today as I was looking at all of the press on-line and everything came to an abrupt halt 30 or so days ago with no updates , other than on Heavy.com which popped up recently...

so something has to happen because JBC cannot get a fair trial having the possibility that he is BG hanging over his head in the media..he can use this as leverage if they don't come out and clear him...

so something has to happen..it is so obviously completely under wraps and is completely shut down to outside inquiry.

mOO

My take is LE has moved on from JBC, but that is just my opinion on it. If I remember the first POI, a person who moved to CO, received a lot of publicity. Probably more than JBC. I believe some of the investigators went out there to interview him face-to-face. It was 5 or 6 months before ISP Superintendent Carter stated that he was "...not a person we care a whole lot about at this time." Not eliminated, they just don't care a whole lot. LE is probably in no hurry to issue any such statement on JBC. If they even issue one at all.

 

[Shamrock1]

My take is LE has moved on from JBC, but that is just my opinion on it. If I remember the first POI, a person who moved to CO, received a lot of publicity. Probably more than JBC. I believe some of the investigators went out there to interview him face-to-face. It was 5 or 6 months before ISP Superintendent Carter stated that he was "...not a person we care a whole lot about at this time." Not eliminated, they just don't care a whole lot. LE is probably in no hurry to issue any such statement on JBC. If they even issue one at all.

I’m so far behind - other than when he was first caught with the 9yr old and LE here said they were aware of him, has there been anything new potentially linking (or unlinking) him here?

 

[StarryStarryNight]

My take is LE has moved on from JBC, but that is just my opinion on it. If I remember the first POI, a person who moved to CO, received a lot of publicity. Probably more than JBC. I believe some of the investigators went out there to interview him face-to-face. It was 5 or 6 months before ISP Superintendent Carter stated that he was "...not a person we care a whole lot about at this time." Not eliminated, they just don't care a whole lot. LE is probably in no hurry to issue any such statement on JBC. If they even issue one at all.

This is true, but immediately after getting back from Colorado, LE acted like they were not that interested in DN. Although we were all still jumping up and down, it was clear they were unimpressed with what they had learned. There has been nothing from LE about their look at JBC. If it’s not the guy, they should say so.

 

[Yemelyan]

I’m so far behind - other than when he was first caught with the 9yr old and LE here said they were aware of him, has there been anything new potentially linking (or unlinking) him here?

No.

And in fact, family members seem to be downplaying any possible connection as more time goes on (such as on Kelsi's twitter account devoted to raising awareness for the case, and in family appearances on GH and other places). Not sure if they have been given official information that's led them to this conclusion or if they are just using their own judgment of the situation.

 

[Yemelyan]

ok I'm still on JBC..and today as I was looking at all of the press on-line and everything came to an abrupt halt 30 or so days ago with no updates , other than on Heavy.com which popped up recently...

so something has to happen because JBC cannot get a fair trial having the possibility that he is BG hanging over his head in the media..he can use this as leverage if they don't come out and clear him...

so something has to happen..it is so obviously completely under wraps and is completely shut down to outside inquiry.

mOO

I've heard a lot of people say that LE are deliberately NOT saying anything about JBC's potential involvement in Delphi so that he can get a fair trial in the kidnapping case; now I hear the other side, that if they say nothing about his involvement, he can't get a fair trial. It can't go both ways, surely.

Sorry for the initials but previous people linked to the crime by the media such as DN, CE, and TB also had charges and court cases hanging over them for other crimes and no one ever said "but LE is just waiting to announce until those crimes are adjudicated." Neither did they say "if they don't announce if this person is cleared for Delphi, he can't get a fair trial." Other than DN, authorities have provided no information either way for any of these individuals.

It would be odd to expect them to "clear" JBC on any particular timeline. My opinion only.

 

[SMK777]

ok I'm still on JBC..and today as I was looking at all of the press on-line and everything came to an abrupt halt 30 or so days ago with no updates , other than on Heavy.com which popped up recently...

so something has to happen because JBC cannot get a fair trial having the possibility that he is BG hanging over his head in the media..he can use this as leverage if they don't come out and clear him...

so something has to happen..it is so obviously completely under wraps and is completely shut down to outside inquiry.

mOO

I would agree that it’s strange that there has been no word at all about him from LE at all. What was said on Heavy.com?

 

[JnRyan]

It would be odd to expect them to "clear" JBC on any particular timeline. My opinion only.

Indeed, when LE stated they weren't too interested in DN, they also stated, “Until somebody is arrested, we’re interested in almost everybody.” The best I can imagine LE stating is that he is not high on their list. If they say anything at all.

 

[SMK777]

I'm pretty sure that's not what they're saying.
I believe they have a good idea who it is and they're waiting for a better piece of info/evidence to seal the deal.

I always thought so, too, but yesterday someone corrected me by posting a quote from LE actually saying the one missing piece is the identity of the killer. It’s upthread somewhere…
@jg580

 

[jg580]

I always thought so, too, but yesterday someone corrected me by posting a quote from LE actually saying the one missing piece is the identity of the killer. It’s upthread somewhere…
@jg580

This is where I keep getting confused. The question is (paraphrasing...) What do you need from the public? The answer: "The person specifically responsible for Abby and Libby’s death." But then goes on to say they'll know that "one piece" when they see it. So I infer from that, that the "one piece" is the identity of the killer. But then again, its a strange way to phrase things if what they want is a name. This case really gets my head all jumbled up. Whatever the case may be, I sure hope those girls get the justice they deserve. Whole thing just breaks my heart...

 

[SMK777]

This is where I keep getting confused. The question is (paraphrasing...) What do you need from the public? The answer: "The person specifically responsible for Abby and Libby’s death." But then goes on to say they'll know that "one piece" when they see it. So I infer from that, that the "one piece" is the identity of the killer. But then again, its a strange way to phrase things if what they want is a name. This case really gets my head all jumbled up. Whatever the case may be, I sure hope those girls get the justice they deserve. Whole thing just breaks my heart...

Agreed: It’s perplexing, and tragic for the girls and their families.

 

[minazoe]

there was a lot of media on this JBC case..like tons..and the family came out and talked...it's like they can still talk...and people could still come forward and perpetuate the conversation but it's like a full press clamp-down.

people want answers..people are still interested..

I find it extremely odd. mOO

 

[Octopied]

INDIANA STATE POLICE

I found this link helpful in answering some questions about Indiana state law, lab capabilities etc regarding DNA and genealogical/familial DNA evidence (Called Forensic Genetic Genealogy in the attached link).

It's a good readthrough if you're wondering why they can't just throw DNA into a database and pull something out.

Here's an example of some of the restrictions on DNA from familial lines:

". Any names identified by the use of FGG must be treated like any other investigative lead. After traditional police investigation, if the agency chooses to pursue any of the potential suspects developed by FGG, a new DNA sample must be obtained from the person of interest for direct comparison to the evidence profile via the normal DNA analysis process by the ISP Laboratory."

In addition:
"In order to perform FGG, the unknown crime scene sample must be reanalyzed to obtain Single Nucleotide Polymorphism (SNP) DNA data, a technology not available at the Indiana State Police Laboratory Division (ISP Laboratory)." - So here we see the technology is not even available at the Indiana State Lab to do Forensic Genetic Genealogy Testing.

Hopefully this clarifies some of the additional difficulties in the DNA issue (if they even have partial or complete DNA of the actual murderer).

 

[Yemelyan]

INDIANA STATE POLICE

I found this link helpful in answering some questions about Indiana state law, lab capabilities etc regarding DNA and genealogical/familial DNA evidence (Called Forensic Genetic Genealogy in the attached link).

It's a good readthrough if you're wondering why they can't just throw DNA into a database and pull something out.

Here's an example of some of the restrictions on DNA from familial lines:

". Any names identified by the use of FGG must be treated like any other investigative lead. After traditional police investigation, if the agency chooses to pursue any of the potential suspects developed by FGG, a new DNA sample must be obtained from the person of interest for direct comparison to the evidence profile via the normal DNA analysis process by the ISP Laboratory."

In addition:
"In order to perform FGG, the unknown crime scene sample must be reanalyzed to obtain Single Nucleotide Polymorphism (SNP) DNA data, a technology not available at the Indiana State Police Laboratory Division (ISP Laboratory)." - So here we see the technology is not even available at the Indiana State Lab to do Forensic Genetic Genealogy Testing.

Hopefully this clarifies some of the additional difficulties in the DNA issue (if they even have partial or complete DNA of the actual murderer).

A couple of points...

Treating any names identified by FGG as a "lead" and requiring formal direct comparison to follow up and confirm is how the procedure works in every state, it's not unique to Indiana.

Though the ISP does STR comparisons (as you'd expect, to interface with CODIS databases) and not SNPs, this does not mean that SNP analysis cannot be done at an outside vendor laboratory. Parabon would be one of these but is not the only one.

There is really nothing prohibiting forensic genetic genealogy from going forward in this case, just as it has for other Indiana cases, unless it has to do with the quality of the DNA or provenance questions about it.

 

[Octopied]

Parabon is the one specifically listed in the link, yes. That's who it seems they specifically partner with.

My wording was not good, my point was more it's not as easy as plug-and-play with DNA (assuming they even have the correct DNA or enough of it etc etc) thank you for clarifying.

(Apologies for the double post earlier, I'm new so still learning the ins and outs of the forum!)

A couple of points...

Treating any names identified by FGG as a "lead" and requiring formal direct comparison to follow up and confirm is how the procedure works in every state, it's not unique to Indiana.

Though the ISP does STR comparisons (as you'd expect, to interface with CODIS databases) and not SNPs, this does not mean that SNP analysis cannot be done at an outside vendor laboratory. Parabon would be one of these but is not the only one.

There is really nothing prohibiting forensic genetic genealogy from going forward in this case, just as it has for other Indiana cases, unless it has to do with the quality of the DNA or provenance questions about it.