Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #136

[jg580]

How often do these cases get new tips after several years? I imagine you get tons upfront and then as the months and years pass you get little to none especially if no new info is given out by LE. Does anyone have insight into the volume of tips LE continues to receive? Were those 50k tips concentrated in that first year or 2?

 

[Charlot123]

Most people don't scream; most people are frozen with fear. BG approached them in a stealthy manner; he didn't jump out of the bushes and chase them (which is the kind of attack that would be more likely to lead to screaming).

But the person planning the attack, BG, did not know whether they’d behave as most people, or not. Supposedly they did yell and scream; what would be his choice, to shoot them, or run away? This is what is interesting; he must have had a plan for a quick getaway, in either case. What was it?

 

[Yemelyan]

How often do these cases get new tips after several years? I imagine you get tons upfront and then as the months and years pass you get little to none especially if no new info is given out by LE. Does anyone have insight into the volume of tips LE continues to receive? Were those 50k tips concentrated in that first year or 2?

Through April of 2020:
Carroll County Sheriff Tobe Leazenby told the Comet Monday roughly 40,000 tips have been received in the investigation into the homicides of Abigail Williams and Liberty German on Feb. 13, 2017. Leazenby reported that roughly 9,000 tips were received in 2019 and approximately 3,000 have been received this year.

In February of 2020, investigators were still getting four or five tips per day:

“A true cold case is when the well has went completely dry. That isn’t the case here," Leazenby said. "We’re still getting information. It’s just not the right information....There’s at least four or five tips within a day.”
Delphi murders investigation still fueled by tips after three years

I think each time there is publicity on the case (featured on a news program, a press conference) the number of tips ticks up. I'm sure they got hundreds or thousands on Chadwell alone - not from people who knew him, just from people reading these forums.

Unfortunately I think the bulk of these tips are not names though, they are things like "have you looked into satellite imagery of the bridge on the day of the murders???"

 

[WildHuncher]

But the person planning the attack, BG, did not know whether they’d behave as most people, or not. Supposedly they did yell and scream; what would be his choice, to shoot them, or run away? This is what is interesting; he must have had a plan for a quick getaway, in either case. What was it?

You can't assume he has a plan. He might. But he might just be living in the moment.

Had they screamed and run at the words "Down the hill," I doubt if he would have shot them even if he had a loaded gun. Too loud. They would probably be alive today. Perhaps he had a fake police badge. He wouldn't be the first killer to employ such a ruse.

They went along, stalling for time and looking for their chance. He did something instantly disabling to one of them. A heavy blow to the head, perhaps. He may have had something to hand for the purpose.

He then instantly shifted to the other. Perhaps he gave her a good clout as well to prevent / stop any screaming. <modsnip - no link>

Did he have some rope, maybe cloth for a gag or two on his person? Maybe. Depends on whether it was all pure opportunism or was he on the prowl from the beginning.

All pure guesswork and MOO.

 

[Ozoner]

But the person planning the attack, BG, did not know whether they’d behave as most people, or not. Supposedly they did yell and scream; what would be his choice, to shoot them, or run away? This is what is interesting; he must have had a plan for a quick getaway, in either case. What was it?

Maybe he was just very confident in his ability to control the girls.

The spot was isolated enough that I'm not sure anyone would have heard them if they had screamed. (It's possible that they did scream while the murders were occurring—if they weren't gagged.)

 

[somequestions]

I think every investigating agency is different when it comes to whether or not to release information to the public. Some will release every piece of video they have if they think the public can help them solve the case. Others will only release pieces of information they think is relevant to helping the investigation.

In my opinion, I think you have to weigh the amount of time that has passed versus whether or not there is a possibility of an actual conviction in a case. After a long time passes in a missing persons case, I wonder if families even care about a conviction versus just wanting someone to come and tell them where their family member is located?

In the case of Abigail Williams and Liberty German, I think this case will be considered an active investigation for a very long time. The sheer volume of tips is going to allow the police to continually explain that information cannot be released that would compromise their active investigation. At this time, I think most people would agree it is an active investigation.

However, in other cases, like that of missing person Lauren Spierer, I find it hard to believe that after over ten years it is still an active investigation that will eventually lead to an arrest and conviction. I cannot understand why all the video in that case would not have been released to the public by now. Each case and the circumstances surrounding it are different. And so are the opinions regarding whether or not a particular case can be considered an active investigation.

 

[Ravenmoon]

Yesterday, Grey Hughes made a new video titled "Inside Info Guest" .
Since he is an approved source on Web sleuths, I am hoping that certain things brought up in that video could be the subject of discussion.

At about the 19:30 mark, the guest begins his interview.
The interview commences at about the hour and 17 minute mark.

There are a few things that may be worth discussing.

AMOO JMO MOO

 

[FrostedGlass]

Thanks for the video and the minute marks.

I heard talk of the shoe tree but never saw video of it. That's downright spooky!

 

[BNA]

Thanks for the video and the minute marks.

I heard talk of the shoe tree but never saw video of it. That's downright spooky!

<modsnip>

Can somebody give us a short summary. For example, what shoe tree?

 

[MistyWaters]

How often do these cases get new tips after several years? I imagine you get tons upfront and then as the months and years pass you get little to none especially if no new info is given out by LE. Does anyone have insight into the volume of tips LE continues to receive? Were those 50k tips concentrated in that first year or 2?

42,000 tips received in the first 27 months. Still the number is immaterial IMO. It’s the quality of each of the tips that’s most significant, not the volume.

https://www.wrtv.com/news/delphi/delphi-murders-over-42-000-tips-received-since-libby-abbys-death

 

[WildHuncher]

42,000 tips received in the first 27 months. Still the number is immaterial IMO. It’s the quality of each of the tips that’s most significant, not the volume.

https://www.wrtv.com/news/delphi/delphi-murders-over-42-000-tips-received-since-libby-abbys-death

You gotta sift out the chaff to get the wheat.

 

[FrostedGlass]

My brain cannot ever tolerate GH's show, and certainly not this guest.

Can somebody give us a short summary. For example, what shoe tree?

They were hard to listen to and that's why I appreciated the minute markers. GH has confidence in the things the guest said because they have been proven to be true over time.

As best as I could tell, the shoe tree is located on the edge of the private drive somewhere south of the bridge end. There's just a bunch of shoes hanging from it. In an area where it's said that few know about, to see all those shoes hanging there was just creepy.

The guest mentioned 2 deer stands; one being in good shape and he has a picture of himself in it. He hiked in from N 450 W, through fields and then woods and ended up in the back yard of the house at the end of the private drive. That's about a mile and half one way. He had something to say about a garage but GH wouldn't let him discuss that.

Guest said BG was still in the area (for about 20 minutes) when Libby's dad was searching. He didn't know how anyone knew that but GH talked about cam locations. Guest didn't agree with GH that the car at the abandoned building was BG's.

There was more but I didn't take notes. I'll probably listen to the video again so I get it right.

 

[WildHuncher]

My brain cannot ever tolerate GH's show, and certainly not this guest.

Can somebody give us a short summary. For example, what shoe tree?

I forget anything I heard about a shoe-tree. It was an incredibly rambling phone call with much arguing to no apparent point about what part of the sattelite map to bring up. GH divided his time between urging caller to get to the point and interrupting him as he seemed to be getting there.

Caller is a person who knows a person with inside info. GH believes caller's source because some things caller told him in 2017 have "proved out" since.

Summary of points I noted affirmed by caller but not by police statements:

Killer remained in the area 20 minutes after Libby's father arrived and started his search. Caller and GH speculate at length about how LE can know this.

The girls were killed on the near side of the creek and transported to the far side.

Libby had serious bruised wrists from being dragged.

Caller speculates that BG could carry Abby but not Libby across the creek.

Caller speculates that dragging Libby could have produced her state of partial nudity, as police found no clear killer DNA at the scene. They were stunned to find none. All they have is touch DNA.

Crime scene tech noted to caller's source that "everyone just did their own thing" in processing the scene. This the tech remarked as never having seen before.

I'm sure there was more but that's what stands out the morning after.

 

[jg580]

42,000 tips received in the first 27 months. Still the number is immaterial IMO. It’s the quality of each of the tips that’s most significant, not the volume.

https://www.wrtv.com/news/delphi/delphi-murders-over-42-000-tips-received-since-libby-abbys-death

I agree its definitely not the number but the quality that is important. I was curious about the overall volume because I thought that its been speculated that one reason for not releasing more info is not to bombard LE with "worthless" tips. I know being worried about securing a conviction and avoiding false confessions is another. I know false confessions happen but do they happen so often that LE would typically want almost no info known and talk in this cryptic way when they do talk that they end up creating more confusion that anything else? Have they even had anyone try to confess (falsely)? I may just be feeling cynical, but the more I think about this case, the more I wonder if there isn't much info to release because they just don't know much. The cryptic way of speaking combined with the unusually tight lipped nature of LE here ends up creating way more speculation/rumors IMO which is exactly what LE says they don't want. My brain just goes round and round lol and I cant make sense of anything.

 

[minazoe]

this person is a violent killer...enjoys the killing ...remember that he is a sadist above all else.

he also may have "performance issues" and may only be able to attempt to rape..is it possible that he is educated on the subject of DNA and how to not leave it for cops. Perhaps they were covered in mud after being dragged from the creek. water and mud would destroy DNA .

look at it this way..

there are many "sexually driven" motivations.
for a sadist it is inflicting pain...and watching pain be inflicted on others..
I think our killer is into himself mostly and fantasizes about hurting young girls and having sex with them, he probably recorded some or all of this so that he could enjoy it later.

this is just my opinion among those of many others.. mOO

 

[minazoe]

also if they were killed on one side and
Libby was dragged and has bruises..wouldn't they have occured before she died? Im not sure bruises would occur post mortem..does anyone know? is there a window for that?
mOO

 

[WildHuncher]

also if they were killed on one side and
Libby was dragged and has bruises..wouldn't they have occured before she died? Im not sure bruises would occur post mortem..does anyone know? is there a window for that?
mOO

Caller may not have said that both girls were absolutely, positively stone dead on the near side. He did say that the killer transported them over the creek. They were not moving under their own power anymore by that point. Sorry for any confusion.

 

[minazoe]

perhaps unconscious. mOO

added:

the police know where it happened so there must have been indicators of struggle, or could be blood evidence..shell casings and footprint evidence that shows what happened.

mOO

 

[StarryStarryNight]

I generally don’t watch GH videos. He seems to have decent information but they are soooo long and soooo boring. I did watch the relevant parts of this one thanks to the time marks by @Ravenmoon.
Most of this stuff I think we’ve all heard before, but it’s nice to get it “confirmed” by GH.
One of the most interesting things I thought was about the two sketches. The guest said only months after the murders, his family member was told about a second sketch by his source that was done two or three days after the murders. The source then remarked “which sketch would you rely on, the one done days afterward or one done 5 months afterward”. The source seemed frustrated that the focus was going to be the 5 month sketch.
I have said before and do think that the sketches have been rendered useless now by how LE has handled them, but the information above I think is interesting.
1) The source doesn’t agree with going with the 5 month sketch, so I wonder who made that decision at that time and why. It appears then that there was disagreement on that.
2) The source hints that he believes the days old sketch should have been used first, so he must believe, from something he knows surrounding the days old sketch, that that sketch is more legitimate and closer to the truth. To me this is confirmation that the sketch from 2019 is the one we should be paying attention to. LE initially said that at the 2019 presser and then danced it into oblivion so nobody is paying attention to it now.
3) LE acknowledged that they might have missed something early on and were going to revisit things. This has to be part of that. Why did they dismiss the days old sketch? Who decided to ignore it for two years? Who persuaded LE away from it?
4) This is the most important thing about the days old sketch. It is less about the sketch itself and more about the information that came with the sketch. That is info that LE chose to ignore until 2019 and we all would love to know why.
5) Think how different this case might be if LE had gone with the days old sketch from the get go. Think how different it might be knowing the killer was a younger slimmer guy instead of some pot bellied 50 year old dude from the beginning.
6) If it was a citizen that led LE away from the days old sketch and information then he should be at the top of the POI list. If it was someone in LE that led them away from it, they should be fired.
I would love to know what other folks think about this.

 

[Ravenmoon]

WARNING: GRAPHIC INFORMATION:
One of the things that was mentioned in the call (in the Grey Hughes video) is that the crime was sexually motivated ( I am paraphrasing) but that there was no actual physical sexual assault.
It seems that they are leaning towards the killer pleasuring himself while looking at the scene.
I know how harsh that is- but it DOES give us a little insight into motivation and how this sicko's mind works.

AMOO JMO MOO