Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #136

[WildHuncher]

I'm the kind of guy who gets lost a lot. Thus I know that even a blind hog finds an acorn once in a while. Sometimes when you're in a strange place and just trying to get back to the main highway or whatever you left, you find yourself on some little byway that half the locals probably don't know and it takes you where you want to go.

That's not the usual outcome, of course. But luck happens.

 

[FrostedGlass]

GH's guest brought up seeing people in a boat while he was hiking; they both laughed.. oh, no... not that again. I think it's worthy of being brought up. Not speculating if BG came or left by boat but that boaters would be familiar with the area.

Carroll Co. promotes its outdoor activities well and the stretch of Deer Creek between the Camden and Delphi would be a memorable one. I can't imagine canoeing/kayaking in that area and not stopping along the way to appreciate the views. Must be awesome to come around the curve in the creek and see the bridge.

In one of the videos I watched, two guys were kayaking with a couple of fish on a stringer. As they went by, I imagined they knew every nook and cranny of that part of the creek.

 

[sunshineray]

I agree. The only way one person, even strong, could have dragged Libby’s body, would be if he used a raincoat tent, or something that would make kind of a lever. (If there was a wheelbarrow next to the deer stand, for example). That could work. Or, we can discuss it till the cows come home, and not understand, because we don’t know the intricacies of that creek. I suspect there are, and this is the main reason why LE think he is local. I think he may be not. Heck, he might have never been to that place, but had a friend from Delphi, who, drunk, could once be telling about peculiarities of his hometown. After that, maybe two trips, and he knows the details.

Even easier - there are probably hiking and trails sites, that might be these killers’ haven. I saw the BridgeHunter that has Indiana coverage map.

What I am thinking of, there are probably commentaries on these sites, and it is in the comments that someone, unexpectedly, could leave some details about his home place. Even more so, on YouTube, because who is reading all of them?

I can imagine, if people were posting something about our local parks, someone could comment: “this place is popular with drone enthusiasts, but few know that it has not two, but three, entrances. The third one is well-hidden”…. Hoopla, an aspiring trail predator might take a note.

What I want to say - if LE knows the true reason for the murders, they probably are slowly building up the case, and are right.

But if they assume that it was a local because “even I had no clue there was a west crossing”, they might be totally wrong. I don’t think all SKs are of TB’s IQ. Probably, high average would be enough to pull it over people, investigators, with superior IQs. Because, the killer has obsession, perseverance and interest. It is his hobby and dedication. So, 17% chance of “a stranger in the alley” is not a small number to me. (And I think there is something in that DNA that doesn’t match the locals. It is not useless, it might not be matched).

Snipped by me

(And I think there is something in that DNA that doesn’t match the locals. It is not useless, it might not be matched)

Or it's possible, a smaller DNA profile with less alleles to work with, it's matched but to many individuals through family trees.

 

[TTF14]

Has anyone seen an interview with any of the surviving relatives in this case where they personally state, "Yes, I've seen all the video and heard all the audio on Libby's phone?" I'm having a really hard time believing they have, and can't find any interview that state this. People are inferring it from certain interviews, but I haven't seen any of them say they have seen it all, that LE showed it to them....

 

[JnRyan]

How come there is only a tad of DNA if the hoodie came from Kelsi's car?

That hoodie is the real joker in the deck for me. How long had it been in Kelsi's car? Had she worn it since last cleaned and who touched her? Who has been in Kelsi's car and maybe moved it out of the way?

I'm relating to my experience. In the back seat of my car I have a zip up sweat shirt with a wool watch cap and leather gloves. They are there for emergencies in the winter. How many years they've been there is anyone's guess since the car is over 10 years old. I can only think of one time in the last 5-7 years I've worn when I've worn the sweat shirt and that was on an unplanned stop at a store where I put it on to go in and took it off immediately upon returning to the car. (I've worn the gloves only a few times a year just while clearing frost from the windows and I can't remember when or even if I've worn the watch cap in recent years.) I can't remember if I saw or met anyone I knew in that short 5-10 minute trip and I certainly can't remember if I bumped anyone or the store clerk touched my shirt. Since the shirt is bundled around the gloves and hat I don't know or even remember who might have moved them out of the way while sitting in the back seat or by a mechanic if the car was worked on. If I loaned that out to someone who was killed there is no way I could give LE even the slightest idea of who might have DNA on that shirt.

If LE has DNA off the hoodie that Kelsi loaned, I can see Sheriff Tobe Leazenby saying they have DNA but they don't know if they have the killer's DNA. They could have his DNA, but they could also have the DNA of someone who touched Kelsi while she was wearing it. It could also be the DNA of someone who rode in the back seat and moved shirt out of the way or the DNA of someone who carried a purchase out to Kelsi's car and moved the shirt out of the way. If Liberty's grandmother said she had just pulled the hoodie out of the dryer and handed it to Abigail prior to the trip we would have a more simple situation.

 

[JnRyan]

Has anyone seen an interview with any of the surviving relatives in this case where they personally state, "Yes, I've seen all the video and heard all the audio on Libby's phone?" I'm having a really hard time believing they have, and can't find any interview that state this. People are inferring it from certain interviews, but I haven't seen any of them say they have seen it all, that LE showed it to them....

Good question. Somewhere in one of the interviews I believe one of the family stated they've heard more than we have and there was nothing on what they heard that would tell us anymore than the released clip(s) would. But ALL of the video or audio? I can't recall that being stated at any time by the family or LE. Of course, I'm stating this from memory.

 

[Charlot123]

.

Snipped by me

(And I think there is something in that DNA that doesn’t match the locals. It is not useless, it might not be matched)

Or it's possible, a smaller DNA profile with less alleles to work with, it's matched but to many individuals through family trees.

Agree. Working with familial DNA, I can see that both “very common” and “highly uncommon” types are, essentially, useless. (Unless you have at least one more uncommon match, but it takes time.)

 

[Charlot123]

From behind is likely, yes. He'd probably have them ahead of him. He might have a wrench or small hammer concealed in his clothing. That's faster than any kind of choking. Some Brazilian Jiu Jitsu fanatics did a study:

What choke puts people unconscious the quickest? - BjjTribes

Maybe a wrench, if it is a blunt trauma.

The article that you have linked shows chokeholds with significant body contact between a victim and an assailant. There would be some DNA left.

But a scarf, or a garrotte, might need less physical contact between the assassin and the victim. Only scarf leaves a lot of DNA, and garrotte, probably, less. But there should be still something from the assassin on it.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

Good question. Somewhere in one of the interviews I believe one of the family stated they've heard more than we have and there was nothing on what they heard that would tell us anymore than the released clip(s) would. But ALL of the video or audio? I can't recall that being stated at any time by the family or LE. Of course, I'm stating this from memory.

That’s what I remember too. The families heard/saw maybe two minutes or something. LE wanted to know if they recognized the guy or noticed anything familiar. They didn’t.

 

[WildHuncher]

Maybe a wrench, if it is a blunt trauma.

The article that you have linked shows chokeholds with significant body contact between a victim and an assailant. There would be some DNA left.

But a scarf, or a garrotte, might need less physical contact between the assassin and the victim. Only scarf leaves a lot of DNA, and garrotte, probably, less. But there should be still something from the assassin on it.

THIS PART GETS GRUESOME

He has to take his first assault victim out really fast. Blunt trauma or maybe a stab in the heart. Nothing with asphyxia or even squeezing shut carotid arteries. It has to be quick and effective before the second one has a chance to react. It's a blitz attack. Number one has to pretty much drop like a rock.

If he does any strangling, it's for his own gratification after he's got them controlled.

IMHO

 

[Charlot123]

THIS PART GETS GRUESOME

He has to take his first assault victim out really fast. Blunt trauma or maybe a stab in the heart. Nothing with asphyxia or even squeezing shut carotid arteries. It has to be quick and effective before the second one has a chance to react. It's a blitz attack. Number one has to pretty much drop like a rock.

If he does any strangling, it's for his own gratification after he's got them controlled.

IMHO

Whatever allowed him to stay close enough from her not to get any of his DNA on her.

Of interest, in a criminology book I recently have read, they mentioned that during a knife attack, it is not uncommon for the assassin to scratch himself with the knife, too, so there may be minuscule amounts of his DNA (his blood mixed with the victim’s one) at the CS. It takes time and determination to find it, but sometimes it has been done.

 

[carbuff]

Probably not relevant that JBC has several pictures on his Facebook where he's out in a kayak, fishing from a kayak, or trying to sell a kayak.

 

[Yemelyan]

That’s what I remember too. The families heard/saw maybe two minutes or something. LE wanted to know if they recognized the guy or noticed anything familiar. They didn’t.

This is also what I recall. I've never heard a family member state they've heard all of it. I have heard them state that they watched an additional amount not released publicly so that LE could get their opinions on how the girls were reacting/whether the man was known to them.

I would assume LE members have heard all of it, such as Leazenby, Carter, Riley. We have some statements from them about the audio/video.

 

[TTF14]

This is also what I recall. I've never heard a family member state they've heard all of it. I have heard them state that they watched an additional amount not released publicly so that LE could get their opinions on how the girls were reacting/whether the man was known to them.

I would assume LE members have heard all of it, such as Leazenby, Carter, Riley. We have some statements from them about the audio/video.

I have heard/read reporters saying "the family has heard more...." or "the family told me they listened to more..." but I haven't heard a family member actually say that. And definitely not LE.

 

[MistyWaters]

I have heard/read reporters saying "the family has heard more...." or "the family told me they listened to more..." but I haven't heard a family member actually say that. And definitely not LE.

Yes this occurred back in August, 2017.

Police: Delphi murder victims spoke of man behind them in audio played for family | wthr.com

“State police say more audio from Libby German's cell phone was played for the victims' families, including a mention of a man they noticed behind them.

Police say the girls mostly talk about "stuff girls talk about" in the recording, but they also mention the man. The only audio that has been released to the public from the phone is that of a man's voice ordering German and her friend, Abby Williams, "down the hill."..”

 

[Yemelyan]

I have heard/read reporters saying "the family has heard more...." or "the family told me they listened to more..." but I haven't heard a family member actually say that. And definitely not LE.

I think there are a couple of places where family mention hearing more of the audio. I think some of these instances may be when the family has appeared in interviews on the GH show, which I don't typically watch. But the instance I am most familiar with right now, because I listened to it recently, is the Hebert interview with AW:

In this interview, she doesn't say she heard four minutes more of the audio, or 30 seconds more, or any specific amount. But she has heard more than the public has heard, because she is able to comment on several things that the girls both did and did not say. Starting around minute 14, she talks about the fact that the girls did not mention a person's name after they became aware of the man. She uses this to debunk the idea that BG could have been someone well known to them (aka, "oh, it's uncle Dave") because she feels they would have said a name if it was someone known to them in that manner. A few minutes later, she is asked to comment on "guys....down the hill" and she knows from her memory that the girls say "huh? hm? what?" between "guys" and "down the hill." She also knows that there is not a long pause between the words said by BG and that the two phrases are not edited together with the girls muted between, as she has heard the girls' vocalizations in the gap between the man's words. She talks about LE telling her that it's not important what the girls are saying in this specific moment, but to focus on the voice of the man. So this constitutes more audio than the public has heard. I think there is probably less intelligible dialogue on the audio than is widely believed.

 

[TTF14]

I think I just have zero faith in MSM these days so unless it's a direct quote from LE I'm not going to believe it.....

 

[CrimeAway]

Maybe a wrench, if it is a blunt trauma.

The article that you have linked shows chokeholds with significant body contact between a victim and an assailant. There would be some DNA left.

But a scarf, or a garrotte, might need less physical contact between the assassin and the victim. Only scarf leaves a lot of DNA, and garrotte, probably, less. But there should be still something from the assassin on it.

I'm wondering how much scene contamination might have occurred?

If there was only a small amount of perpetrator DNA, which was then mixed with other DNA, could that then make it very difficult to produce a good, testable sample?

@Yemelyan

 

[Yemelyan]

I'm wondering how much scene contamination might have occurred?

If there was only a small amount of perpetrator DNA, which was then mixed with other DNA, could that then make it very difficult to produce a good, testable sample?

@Yemelyan

Short answer - yes, IMO.

Long answer - DNA admixtures, when the overall quantity of DNA from different contributors are very small, are sometimes still tricky for forensic specialists to analyze. It helps if there is, for example, a little bit of male perpetrator DNA and a lot of female victim DNA - then you can use specific primers to amplify just the male DNA and get enough of it to test. But sometimes you have many more contributors than that, or sometimes pieces of fragmented DNA with portions of it dropped out. Then it can be hard to determine which contributor that fragment may have belonged to. Or is it a separate contributor entirely?

People do not want to hear this, but there does come a time in some cases where there are admixtures with low contributor quantity (or large numbers of contributors) where there is subjective input on the part of the person doing the analysis.

Edited to add - this isn't necessarily all due to "scene contamination," though certainly that is a factor. Some of this is just due to the sensitivity with which DNA can be detected these days and the fact that we are all walking around awash in other people's DNA from casual and incidental contact.

All MOO.

 

[Charlot123]

Quote from DTH as transcribed by Cujenn81 post #901, note the word “even if”.
IN - Abigail Williams & Liberty German, Delphi, Media, Maps, Timelines NO DISCUSSION

BBM

DTH:
Do you think there could be that element?
That he’s watching? He’s that close now?

DC:
Probably, yeah.
Yeah, whoever it is, and whoever it was, has stared at this nature reserve like we are right now. I know that. Even if it was his first day, he stood right here. Stood right here, yeah.

More from DTH, perplexing -

DTH:
You know, one of the things that we kinda talk about within a story is when you don’t know what happened, usually the simplest explanation is what happened.

When we find out what happened here, do you think it’s going to be simple?
Is it going to be the simplest explanation?

DC:
No, I don’t think so, and that’s just my own personal opinion. Because, it’s uh, it’s complex.

It’s—from what happened down there to what happened over there is complex. And, there’s not a simple explanation.

Ya know, if—I mean, if you and I were standing on this bridge, and you pushed me off and I died. Simple explanation, right? Or I jumped, simple explanation. Tragic — but simple explanation. It’s something that’s not, that’s not like this.

When I read about a “complex” situation, “not a simple explanation”, I imagine a one-armed and two, or three-armed situations. DC being pushed off the bridge is a one-armed case. So it is obvious that the girls’ case might be two, or three-armed one.

And it makes me wonder if the girls were not killed where they were found, but the owners of the initial place got scared on finding two bodies and hastily moved them at night. (Panic makes people do weird stuff. Especially if those people, for example, already had an open case against them.) So in this situation, the CS that was processed was not the original CS. This would enormously complicate the case and yes, in this case the original perpetrator doesn’t need to be smart at all, he is just incredibly lucky. And LE did everything by the book, it is just an unlucky case for them. And one could prosecute the ones who had tampered with the original scene, but never get to the killer.

JMO. One of the examples of what could have happened. Obviously, DC was trying to hint at some major complications, but who knows, what.