Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #141

[Boxer]

I found the below YouTube video where the former Scotland Yard Homicide investigator Steven Keogh (author of the book Murder Investigation Team) analyzes the police investigation of the Delph Murders. It is well worth watching.
Keogh's analysis is that the murder investigation into Abby and Libby's murder has been hampered by investigators inexperience, which manifests in their refusal to release very basic information (such as cause of death). Releasing such information might jog the recollection of members of the public who know the murderer and might turn him in.

I have criticism on their police work.
The Sheriff intentionally intimidated the seedy and lawbreakers of the Delphi area, instead of appealing to their humanity, and asking for information from everyone with reasonable limited immunity.

 

[Boxer]

I found the below YouTube video where the former Scotland Yard Homicide investigator Steven Keogh (author of the book Murder Investigation Team) analyzes the police investigation of the Delph Murders. It is well worth watching.
Keogh's analysis is that the murder investigation into Abby and Libby's murder has been hampered by investigators inexperience, which manifests in their refusal to release very basic information (such as cause of death). Releasing such information might jog the recollection of members of the public who know the murderer and might turn him in.

I have criticism on their police work.
The Sheriff intentionally intimidated the seedy and lawbreakers of the Delphi area, instead of appealing to their humanity, and asking for information from everyone with reasonable limited immunity.

 

[sunshineray]

I have criticism on their police work.
The Sheriff intentionally intimidated the seedy and lawbreakers of the Delphi area, instead of appealing to their humanity, and asking for information from everyone with reasonable limited immunity.

I remember Sheriff Reader of Pike County, OH, the Rhoden murders, doing just that. I wonder if it helped them in their investigation, which was another case where so many said it was a cold case after 3 years.

 

[HistoryNut]

I remember Sheriff Reader of Pike County, OH, the Rhoden murders, doing just that. I wonder if it helped them in their investigation, which was another case where so many said it was a cold case after 3 years.

I followed that case very closely and would guess that it didn’t help them solve it at all. IIRC, LE found key evidence that the killers left behind and that’s how they finally solved the case. If the Delphi murders are ever solved, I believe it will also be through some kind of evidence that the killer left behind. MOO

 

[Prime8]

Every time that I have seen the vid the thing that jumped out to me was the gait, the walk of the guy he seems to have a limp or preference for the right side

The bridge is extremely rickety, missing planks and there are no guard rails. His gait is likely entirely related to keeping his balance and finding the best footing. I know someone who has walked the bridge - they were able to clear it quickly but there's a lot of thought that has to go into every step taken.

 

[housewife]

Paul Holes has publicly stated a few times that DNA will not solve this case. He has spoken to investigators in the case and is aware of what they have. It doesn't mean that a DNA match won't help build the case, just won't solve it.

Did you listen to Paul Holes thoughts on the murder of Katie Janness? He said in a recent Murder Squad episode that the extreme violence/humiliation shown by her attacker caused him to call other investigators to compare their notes.
I always wondered if Libby and Abby were posed at the crime scene or left with some other humiliating message from the attacker. MOO.
Someone has posted their theory this is the work of an organized nonsocial offender or disorganized asocial offender.

 

[acutename]

Paul Holes has publicly stated a few times that DNA will not solve this case. He has spoken to investigators in the case and is aware of what they have. It doesn't mean that a DNA match won't help build the case, just won't solve it.

does that mean it is some one so close to one or both of the victims that they could have legitimately had his DNA on them? ... ?

 

[acutename]

Good point--no self-selected group *can* be genuinely random. "Unwise" said nearly 50% of people he knew (i think that was the number) had sent personal samples to one company or another; I said that none of my direct family, my wife's direct family, or any close friends, had sent samples. And another user (forgot who) said one niece was the sole member he was aware of from his own family. There are certainly some systemic factors there, demographics, personality, belief systems, religion--I can't even guess what factors play into it. Interesting question, isn't it?

I think that some people would not spend the $ for a test IMO. Others might have something in their background that they are not curious about- IMO, and some people just do not like science and genetics. all IMO.

 

[Prime8]

does that mean it is some one so close to one or both of the victims that they could have legitimately had his DNA on them? ... ?

It could mean a lot of things. It could be that the DNA would have a legitimate reason to be there (although I don't know why they would consult with him if that were the case). It could be an incomplete profile, meaning that you can't identify a specific person but can eliminate some people. It could be DNA from something that can't directly be tied to the crime scene (cigarette butt, DNA on a soda can, spit, etc.). Some people have also suggested it could be from a dog or cat.

 

[Charlot123]

Did you listen to Paul Holes thoughts on the murder of Katie Janness? He said in a recent Murder Squad episode that the extreme violence/humiliation shown by her attacker caused him to call other investigators to compare their notes.
I always wondered if Libby and Abby were posed at the crime scene or left with some other humiliating message from the attacker. MOO.
Someone has posted their theory this is the work of an organized nonsocial offender or disorganized asocial offender.

Are people sharply discriminating between organized non social or disorganized asocial, or, like most events, these two lie on both ends on the spectrum, and can “slide” closer to the center? E.g., psychotic and disorganized can get treatment, that won’t “cure” him of the offenses, but make him plan better, etc.

 

[Charlot123]

I admit freely that I get a lot of exercise jumping to conclusions. We also know that when there are not enough dots to connect, I may create a few.

Voices you recognize, but can't quite place:

Radio DJ
Announcements over loudspeakers - airport, train station, amusement parks, elevator, maybe your school? Could be recorded - walk left, stand right; step to the rear of the tram; Second Floor
Caller at the racetrack
Sports announcer in the booth, live events
Voice actors for voice-over commercials, cartoons
Recorded/audio tour at the zoo or a historic site

What other voices to we hear -- when we do not see the person speaking?

jmho ymmv lrr

We hear more and more. Pharmacies. Our own cellular networks when we call. Payroll. Hospital greetings. Basically, every place where you call, are attempted to be redirected to website, wait online, then yell “customer service!” If TL thinks he heard it somewhere, he had to make a list of places where he calls and gets automatic greetings, as his is different from mine.

One thing: they usually use female voices for prerecorded information or navigation. There are few where male ones are used.

 

[Boxer]

Are people sharply discriminating between organized non social or disorganized asocial, or, like most events, these two lie on both ends on the spectrum, and can “slide” closer to the center? E.g., psychotic and disorganized can get treatment, that won’t “cure” him of the offenses, but make him plan better, etc.

MOO the defnitions are never that precise, and MOO pathologies expand over time

 

[Charlot123]

I think JBC is not talking and so they are going to find him out on their own...and they will find him out if he is the one..for me, he is the one, they don't have to say anything, but if they have moved on I don't see any reason to beat around the bush do you? we really don't know anthony shots isn't another connection to him do we?

he wrote on his facebook he wanted to start a youth group and he would pay whatever it takes..
he would just need someone to watch his backdoor.

what is this youth group idea ? and what is the backdoor that needs to be watched?

knowing what he is convicted of...how would you interpret this one for instance?

mOO

About the youth group and back door.

I don’t know what JBC posted, but there are people who post, and there are people who quietly plan. My feeling is, he got drunk or high in the evening, and was posting on FB, open, to attract a female. His posts show sexual frustration, looking for a mate. Of course, no one checked them, no one would till now were it not for that horrific case with the child.
I think BG quietly planned. I don’t know if he even has a FB. Definitely it would not be open.

P.S. I am not trying to fight over who he is, just frustrated that he is walking free.

 

[acutename]

We hear more and more. Pharmacies. Our own cellular networks when we call. Payroll. Hospital greetings. Basically, every place where you call, are attempted to be redirected to website, wait online, then yell “customer service!” If TL thinks he heard it somewhere, he had to make a list of places where he calls and gets automatic greetings, as his is different from mine.

One thing: they usually use female voices for prerecorded information or navigation. There are few where male ones are used.

my own anecdotal thoughts: I was listening to the radio in the car once and some one called into the station and despite the kind of distortion you can have on a car radio, I knew immediately it was an acquaintance of mine. There were more than 3 words said ... However, I had a coworker whose voice I always thought I recognized and he sounded exactly like a cousin of his- identical voices. IMO. Is voice all based on heritable traits? It has also occurred to me that maybe BG was talking in some affected voice that was not his natural tone during the crime, so his voice would not be easily recognized by people who know him. It still seems weird to me that he has not been identified by some one who knew or who knows him. IMO.

 

[Charlot123]

my own anecdotal thoughts: I was listening to the radio in the car once and some one called into the station and despite the kind of distortion you can have on a car radio, I knew immediately it was an acquaintance of mine. There were more than 3 words said ... However, I had a coworker whose voice I always thought I recognized and he sounded exactly like a cousin of his- identical voices. IMO. Is voice all based on heritable traits? It has also occurred to me that maybe BG was talking in some affected voice that was not his natural tone during the crime, so his voice would not be easily recognized by people who know him. It still seems weird to me that he has not been identified by some one who knew or who knows him. IMO.

It would be interesting to speak to a voice specialist, but I have noticed that voices might skip a generation. Kids sounding like grandpas or grandmas. If we inherit parents voices, it is not also the timbre, but also, the intonation, the prosody, etc. It would seem that old recording devices dulled the voices, though. I wonder if Libby’s iPhone 7, especially in the pocket, cut off higher registers in the offender’s voice. Maybe the initial “hi guys” was recorded with the iPhone out, and “down the hill” with it in the pocket, hence it sounds like two voices? “Down the hill” sounds super dull, almost unusually so.

 

[Imvp2]

There are so many sharp folks on this site with an abundance of experience in different aspects of criminology. I'm convinced that some may be able to solve this heinous crime, given just a couple more details......let this be the year

 

[mom2chloe]

I admit freely that I get a lot of exercise jumping to conclusions. We also know that when there are not enough dots to connect, I may create a few.

Voices you recognize, but can't quite place:

Radio DJ
Announcements over loudspeakers - airport, train station, amusement parks, elevator, maybe your school? Could be recorded - walk left, stand right; step to the rear of the tram; Second Floor
Caller at the racetrack
Sports announcer in the booth, live events
Voice actors for voice-over commercials, cartoons
Recorded/audio tour at the zoo or a historic site

What other voices to we hear -- when we do not see the person speaking?

jmho ymmv lrr

Apologies if already mentioned but church. You recognize a voice who preaches or sings. I would also definitely recognize the music minister’s voice from junior high school and the years before.

 

[PaulaDC]

Thanks for that article. That was on my mind when I wrote my post but I couldn't find an article. What I remembered was ISP Sgt Kim Riley addressing the same matter when answering a question from the media but I still cannot find that. So here we have an article from three and a half years where LE apparently still hasn't pursued familial searches. One excuse given in the article is limited resources. But in a case where there was over a 100 LE personnel involved in the early few months and now there is a building being leased to house the investigation that statement doesn't sound right. (Of course, that could be the reporter's misinterpretation, too.) I agree that LE probably wanted to do something with the DNA testing. But I wonder if LE may have discovered when submitting what they had that it wasn't adequate for such testing. Hence the submission at the end of 2018. That late 2018 submission may have been a "Hail Mary" attempt to find something better than what the earlier lab results produced?

We have a case here in VA, the Childs/Metzler murders, in August 2009. Just a few years later, the sheriff proclaimed they have the killer's DNA. Not just DNA, but he stated definitively that LE not only has DNA, but it is the killer's. And yet here we are over 10 years later and no progress there either on the DNA and many of us are starting to have doubts about that DNA.

I don't buy the excuses that the ISP lab can't do it (what about the FBI or private labs), lack of resources or LE just hasn't gotten around to it. The sad reality might be that LE just doesn't have what they need to do this DNA search. I'm truly starting to believe LE needs that 'one tip', because DNA may not be a significant factor in this investigation.

Unless the DNA they do have is from someone close enough to the girls that it should/could have been on them and that person of that DNA has a solid alibi and no one physically can say they saw him near the bridge. Just moo

 

[PaulaDC]

Paul Holes has publicly stated a few times that DNA will not solve this case. He has spoken to investigators in the case and is aware of what they have. It doesn't mean that a DNA match won't help build the case, just won't solve it.

Does that mean an inner circle person with a strong alibi? I don't see too many reasons why it wouldn't solve it if it's a proven method. Moo

 

[FromGermany1]

does that mean it is some one so close to one or both of the victims that they could have legitimately had his DNA on them? ... ?

What, if there were two perps (one killer, one accomplice), they are close relatives and their DNA is similar, mixed at the crime scene with intention (think of human excretion for example), both of their DNA not integrated into CODIS.
When did LE speak the first time of "a twist"? Did they, when they had already some DNA (and afterwards it became vague re DNA)?