Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #143

[raja]

I think that when searchers initially found the girls, it was not evident at first glance that a crime had happened. Also, if the searchers thought they were looking for girls who had been out in the cold all night, your brain will try to fit what you see into that scenario. You might not be able to process what you actually see, if your brain is fixed on another scenario. I agree that it could not have been a very bloody crime scene. I think the girls might just have been lying there as if they we sleeping, and only at close examination you would discover that a crime had happened. I think this is part of the signatures. Maybe it was a violent crime, but after the fact the killer spend time to make it look like something else. Maybe this is also why the crime scene is referred to as “odd”, because with what had happened to the girls, how they were killed, you would expect the crime scene to look different?

It is possible that the wounds were hidden by clothing. I hate even saying this but they could have died naked and then they were redressed.

 

[Yemelyan]

It's a great thought, but 'they' isn't just plural now. For ten years or more, use of a plural pronoun for a single person has been spreading.

"If a camper sees a snake, they should avoid approaching it."

It sounds truly horrible to me, but languages get simpler over time--the way Latin morphed into Italian and other languages. This is one change that is already common, like the use of "hopefully" in the sense of "it is to be hoped." And turning transitive verbs into intransitives (e.g., "the software launches next week" instead of "the software will be launched next week.") Standard spoken English has changed a great deal, IMO, in the last 50 years. Don't even get me started on the loss of the subjunctive. :-/

This is accurate, IMO...I'm originally from the rural midwest (similar region to Delphi actually) and for my entire life I have heard people use "them" and "they" as singular pronouns. For those who use correct English and can't imagine how this works: there is a tendency to do this if you are talking about a person but the identity of that person is unknown to you. An example would be, you are driving and see a red car in front of you make an illegal turn. You might turn to your passenger and say "Did you see what they did?" Or "They almost wrecked!" You don't really mean two or more people are driving the car. You just mean that you don't know who is driving. I think this is how Carter colloquially uses "they" and "them" in some of these situations so I don't read too much into his use of it in this interview (if he even said "them" - I heard it slightly differently when listening than what the transcript showed).

 

[photographer4]

Even if redressed, unless he cleaned up the blood from their bodies their clothes would still have blood on them, no? There would be blood on the ground too - easily taken care of by dirt and folliave maybe?

 

[Ekliptika]

Even if redressed, unless he cleaned up the blood from their bodies their clothes would still have blood on them, no? There would be blood on the ground too - easily taken care of by dirt and folliave maybe?

The blood could have been underneath them? Not visible before they were moved? Maybe there were no blood? Maybe COD was something that does not cause bleeding? Maybe wounds inflicted after death?

 

[Barbieshell]

The blood could have been underneath them? Not visible before they were moved? Maybe there were no blood? Maybe COD was something that does not cause bleeding? Maybe wounds inflicted after death?

Possibly, once the heart stops no more blood will pump out.

 

[Peppery]

My guess is
1. The searchers who found them did so through a phone. Someone saw deer, looked via the camera app and zoomed in and saw the girls.
2. we don’t know if that person or whoever else was in the search party saw any blood.
3. We don’t know exactly where the search party was or how close they were in relation to the bodies.
4. Between the deer and other animals, the wind and probably BG, I bet they were somewhat covered in leaves or other forest floor stuff.

 

[photographer4]

The blood could have been underneath them? Not visible before they were moved? Maybe there were no blood? Maybe COD was something that does not cause bleeding? Maybe wounds inflicted after death?

Wounds inflicted post mortem would still bleed though, no?

 

[Lavender Moon]

In regards to them being able to get away, it's very difficult to try and comprehend what would have been going through their minds and body at that stage. They were 13-14 years old and probably knew they were in real danger.

A massive spike in fear does a huge amount to the body in a real short time. Heart rate goes through the roof alongside blood pressure, muscles begin to tighten, breathing gets quicker. Meanwhile other parts of the body are being told by the brain to slow down. It all causes havoc in your system. It's simple to think that they should have ran or made a break for it, but in that moment there is no guarantee their bodies would have let them.

Fight, flight, freeze, or fawn. They may have been frozen with terror.

 

[Peppery]

Wounds inflicted post mortem would still bleed though, no?

Yes. Blood will travel wherever gravity takes it

 

[Ekliptika]

Wounds inflicted post mortem would still bleed though, no?

My understanding is that a major difference between an antemortem and a postmortem injury is the presence of signs of bleeding. While the person is still alive, the blood is circulating and any injuries such as cuts or stabs will bleed. After death, the body usually does not bleed.

 

[photographer4]

My guess is
1. The searchers who found them did so through a phone. Someone saw deer, looked via the camera app and zoomed in and saw the girls.
2. we don’t know if that person or whoever else was in the search party saw any blood.
3. We don’t know exactly where the search party was or how close they were in relation to the bodies.
4. Between the deer and other animals, the wind and probably BG, I bet they were somewhat covered in leaves or other forest floor stuff.

Actually, I believe the girls were found almost at the same time by two search parties. One guy saw a deer through his cell phone camera from across the creek and noticed the girls near the deer just as a search team happened upon them. I believe a fireman was in the team that actually found the girls bodies. I believe Kelsi spoke about this here:
"“Somebody saw two deer on the hill and directly in front of us, then they told us they had found the girls’ bodies,” said German. “I was going to run across the water to get over there but the lady I was with had to hold me down because I didn’t need to see it.”" It's been almost two years since the Delphi murders. The case is still unsolved.

I believe searchers called out across the creek as well that they had found the kids, and Kelsi heard them and was going to head there, but was stopped. I'm looking for the article where this was stated, but I think it was a few things almost at the same time:
-> They found the shoe on the bridge side
-> someone saw the deer and noticed the girls
-> Searchers approached and found the kids

UNTIL I CAN FIND THE ARTICLE TO SUPPORT THIS, PLS TAKE ABOVE AS OPINION ONLY!!

 

[Ekliptika]

Yes. Blood will travel wherever gravity takes it

My understanding is that it depends on how the body is placed and where the post mortem wound is inflicted. If the body is lying on it’s back and the wound is inflicted on the front, e.g. The stomach, the wound will not bleed to the same extend as it would in someone who is alive. This is because there is no blood pressure and because the blood will tend to travel where gravity takes it, as you say, meaning for someone lying on their back the blood stay inside the body and sink to the part of the body facing down. I hope I am not to graphic. This is used in forensic science, when determining whether wounds are inflicted before or after death.

 

[carbuff]

Right? Remember when Doug Carter said, "We have a witness. You made mistakes."
That would definitely be a big mistake. Could searchers/witnesses have seen a man searching on his own, appearing to look for something? I also remember Carter saying that nobody saw him leave. Because he was looking for the phone? Was he there the whole time? Did he just blend in with the search party? moo

Yeah, I think he might well have just blended in with the search party. I think he might be somebody who would have been expected to be there.

 

[Lavender Moon]

Yeah, I think he might well have just blended in with the search party. I think he might be somebody who would have been expected to be there.

If he joined the search it was most likely a great thrill for him to do so.

 

[carbuff]

If he joined the search it was most likely a great thrill for him to do so.

Yep. Makes me sick thinking of it.

 

[Deathsgrandaughter]

can't find a EU friendly source with images. Can you describe?

ETA. Finally found one I think
Girls discover inmate's hideout in Indiana

Hope this is OK to post, as a little off topic, but there is a way to view these non European friendly pages. If you go to the Internet Archive, and click the web icon up on the top left of the page, it opens a drop down box, to the right of which are the words Save Page Now. Paste the url of the page you can't see and follow the instructions to save. Once saved you should be able to view the article. Also works on paywalls. Here is the original non-EU page I saved there:
DNR evicts felon who was hiding out in Indiana cave | WANE 15

 

[photographer4]

Found Deceased - IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 13, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #1

Post 291 in thread one had a (now dead) link to an article indicating that the autopsies were taking longer than expected. Did we ever find out why?

 

[moonriverfarm]

I think the girls were there to meet someone - possibly a "catfish' situation. BG was the catfish. They realized there was no cute guy there, but there was BG, and he was following them. That's why she started recording.

 

[Yemelyan]

My understanding is that it depends on how the body is placed and where the post mortem wound is inflicted. If the body is lying on it’s back and the wound is inflicted on the front, e.g. The stomach, the wound will not bleed to the same extend as it would in someone who is alive. This is because there is no blood pressure and because the blood will tend to travel where gravity takes it, as you say, meaning for someone lying on their back the blood stay inside the body and sink to the part of the body facing down. I hope I am not to graphic. This is used in forensic science, when determining whether wounds are inflicted before or after death.

Postmortem wounds will still bleed. No, not to the same extent as a wound that occured pre-mortem, due to a lack of blood pressure. Blood will continue to ooze or flow out of any wound until such a time as blood coagulates or settles in the body due to gravity (this process is variable and depends on many factors both environmental and biological but will take several hours to take effect throughout the body). Medical death investigators will know how to interpret the bleeding patterns they see. IMO

 

[Barbieshell]

My guess is
1. The searchers who found them did so through a phone. Someone saw deer, looked via the camera app and zoomed in and saw the girls.
2. we don’t know if that person or whoever else was in the search party saw any blood.
3. We don’t know exactly where the search party was or how close they were in relation to the bodies.
4. Between the deer and other animals, the wind and probably BG, I bet they were somewhat covered in leaves or other forest floor stuff.

They also should be able to definitively say who touched the girls or was within a certain vicinity of the crime scene (each group will know who they were with).
They should be able to get through / discount everyone via a DNA sample but I would have hoped nobody got that near the bodies (other than law enforcement/official folks.
The though of folks idling up checking for pulses other than LE doesn't sit right with me. And if they did they should have provided DNA samples to keep on file so all evidence could be cross referenced / discounted and whatever was left over could be looked at more suspiciously.