Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #145

Status
Not open for further replies.

CocoChanel

Administrator
Staff member
Administrator
Joined
Aug 22, 2009
Messages
6,429
Reaction score
24,651
ADMIN NOTE

The search warrant document for RL linked earlier is no longer available online at this time.
Instead, go to The Murder Sheet podcast 5.16.22 to HEAR the podcasters summary of this search warrant. The Murder Sheet podcast has been APPROVED by Websleuths to be discussed here.

Here is one link to the podcast….it is also available on many other podcast platforms of your choice.
Murder Sheet - The Delphi Murders: Search Warrant
 

iamnotagolem

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 4, 2011
Messages
4,972
Reaction score
8,202
Agreed. If the person who he asked to lie to LE is correct about the timing, it does seem significant. One could claim that RL is not dumb and guessed (correctly) based on his probation that he would be asked to account for his location when hours had passed and the girls had not been found, but that would mean that out of everybody in Delphi - from LE to the girls' families - RL was the only one who perceived that foul play was likely to be involved. Because you're not usually asked for an alibi about runaway or lost girls, you would only be asked about girls who were harmed. Unless he thought that searchers may have already discovered he wasn't home in the early evening and could "tell" on him? But then why not ask for an alibi for the earlier trip to the transfer station too?
Also to note, he had his friend lie about his alibi, not only to say he drove RL but the time of the trip, too. If I’m reading the affidavit correctly, he went to the transfer station that morning (did not ask for an alibi for that trip), returned home and then left for the aquarium store a little before 5pm but asked his friend to alibi him from 3-4.

So RL was at home during the murders. But LE couldn’t tie him to them? No evidence was found during the execution of the search warrant. I guess if he is the killer, he could have disposed of his bloody clothes, knife and souvenir during his 5pm trip to the aquarium.
 

FromGermany1

Formerly FromGermany
Joined
Apr 16, 2021
Messages
1,273
Reaction score
11,439
This affidavit says that there is video from the transfer station that shows him there slightly before noon. The camera at the transfer station is about 26 minutes "off" actual time, however.
Could he have seen Kelsey's car with the girls driving to the MHB area or wasn't that his way home? Does anybody know?
 

Diddian

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2020
Messages
1,696
Reaction score
31,007
Ron Logan passed away earlier this year. They trotted him out in life and now are trotting him out in death.

Now let's see the probable cause on Bicycle Bridge Road.
I do not know the probable cause on Bicycle Bridge Rd; however, when looking at some of the published photos of that property at the time it was searched, I noticed there was a small camp trailer and some small outbuildings - all in pretty bad shape - that looked like they might be used as residences.

I suspect that the owners of the property may have been renting those out to folks who have trouble finding cheap housing elsewhere or who just prefer to live under the radar. This would include RSO’s. So, IMO it may be that when LE started looking into RSO’s in the area, that search brought them to that property. JMO.
 

TL4S

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2018
Messages
3,150
Reaction score
27,105
Considering the trouble RL faced as a consequence of his probation violation, I'm actually not surprised he tried to arrange an alibi that night and next morning while LE and other people were conducting a search for the girls, asking where everyone was at the time, etc. Even if he knew nothing about the girls, he knew he could get busted for driving. I don't know if he is a convicted felon, but owning firearms would also be in violation. Either way, he didn't even cover the time of the murder for himself, so I tend to think he was more concerned about his driving violation. Jmo.

What I'm curious about is why the FBI was so sure something with the crime was digitally documented. Was that a profiling thing alone, or was there something to tell them that? Does it have something to do with the staging, or "signatures"? It's not stated outright that they have evidence, only that through experience, they suspect this was done.
 
Last edited:

TTF14

Spaceship Headlight Pattern Expert
Joined
Jan 3, 2014
Messages
13,060
Reaction score
55,059
What I'm curious about is why the FBI was so sure something with the crime was digitally documented. Was that a profiling thing alone, or was there something to tell them that? Does it have something to do with the staging, or "signatures"? It's not stated outright that they have evidence, only that through experience, they suspect this was done.
RSBM

Yes, this!
 

TL4S

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2018
Messages
3,150
Reaction score
27,105
RSBM

Yes, this!

Thinking back to the K connection and the CSAM searches, etc., maybe the "staging" was to make the girls look like they had been doing something they were not, and that would indicate the want to digitally document. Or would that be posing? I guess I'm kind of hinting at something that would be shared online and perhaps making it look initially consensual...I don't want to get any more specific. But it's a fine line between posing and staging.
 

Diddian

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2020
Messages
1,696
Reaction score
31,007
Considering the trouble RL faced as a consequence of his parole violation, I'm actually not surprised he tried to arrange an alibi that night and next morning while LE and other people were conducting a search for the girls, asking where everyone was at the time, etc. Even if he knew nothing about the girls, he knew he could get busted for driving. I don't know if he is a convicted felon, but owning firearms would also be in violation. Either way, he didn't even cover the time of the murder for himself, so I tend to think he was more concerned about his driving violation. Jmo.

What I'm curious about is why the FBI was so sure something with the crime was digitally documented. Was that a profiling thing alone, or was there something to tell them that? Does it have something to do with the staging, or "signatures"? It's not stated outright that they have evidence, only that through experience, they suspect this was done.
I remember Prosecutor Ives saying about the scene that there were multiple things one would definitely take a photograph of (paraphrasing as I don't remember his precise words).

So, combine what Ives said with what appears in this affidavit and IMO, it seems LE believed the staging of the scene was done for the purpose of producing visual shock value and they have further surmised it was not intended for those who discovered the bodies (which would be a hostility directed at family or searchers), but was instead for producing digital images or video. The digital images or video could have been for the killer's own personal use or for providing or selling to other sickos, or both. I assume that the staging could ALSO have been signature - fulfilling some psychological need of the killer.

The fact that not all clothing items were recovered suggests to me that, at least in part, the killer was not entirely motivated by producing images to sell or trade; the trophies were for his own psychological satisfaction. It is also possible that the missing clothing* items were in the creek, but were not found despite the attempted thorough search.

ETA: *Can't remember whether the agent said some items of "clothing" or "personal items" had not been recovered. We don't know what personal items were missing, whether it was clothing or jewelry or something else the girls had with them.
 
Last edited:

TL4S

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2018
Messages
3,150
Reaction score
27,105
I remember Prosecutor Ives saying about the scene that there were multiple things one would definitely take a photograph of (paraphrasing as I don't remember his precise words).

So, combine what Ives said with what appears in this affidavit and IMO, it seems LE believed the staging of the scene was done for the purpose of producing visual shock value and they have further surmised it was not intended for those who discovered the body (which would be a hostility directed at family or searchers), but was instead for producing digital images or video. The digital images or video could have been for the killer's own personal use or for providing or selling to other sickos, or both. I assume that the staging could ALSO have been signature - fulfilling some psychological need of the killer.

The fact that not all clothing items were recovered suggests to me that, at least in part, the killer was not entirely motivated by producing images to sell or trade; the trophies were for his own psychological satisfaction. It is also possible that the missing clothing items were in the creek, but were not found despite the attempted thorough search.
I feel like a lot of that would be termed as "posing" not "staging." And that's where my question is. It's almost as if the killer had this motivation (I'm guessing sexual), which was such that he had to take a trophy and possibly digital documentation, leaving signatures, etc., yet he then staged them, which I understand to mean he tired to make the crime scene look like something other than what it was.

But we know now that LE thinks there was a possible SM link, and the a_shots ask. KAK's LE interview was three years after this RL search. At that point in March 2017, the large CSAM investigation was practically in its infancy (like two to three weeks old). The fact that the FBI agent was insistent on looking for digital evidence on a crime we currently have reason to believe was digitally based really makes me curious.
 
Last edited:

helpfulcharlie

Probably not the real Chuck Finley
Joined
Jun 18, 2010
Messages
1,139
Reaction score
10,582
I downloaded the PDF as well. I had to join the FB group to find them in the files area. Got tagged in an announcement welcoming several hundred new members, probably most of which followed the clues from here to go get that exact same PDF.

Looks like they REALLY thought they had their man. Based on what? My speculation is that proximity carried the most weight. He just happened to be the closest <modsnip> to the crime scene? And I'm guessing since he was allowed to continue living his life that they found no evidence whatsoever. He didn't strike me as the most meticulous person that ever lived, so continuing to speculate, I'd guess there was no evidence to be found. So most likely just the nearest, unluckiest <modsnip> that ever lived. The alibi creation bugs me, though...
 
Last edited by a moderator:

StarryStarryNight

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 2, 2017
Messages
2,074
Reaction score
23,714
I’ve read the warrant but not listened yet to the podcast. I’d say LE had a lot of good reasons to suspect RL and search his property, almost all of which we didn’t know until today.
Some of the information like cell phone data they wouldn’t have known right away.
So granted, LE had good reasons to perform this search, so now my question is…why did they stop looking at RL.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top