Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #145

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deugirtni

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It does seem odd. I had to read and reread the affidavit, but in item 10, it says RL asked his cousin to say he arrived to pick up RL between 2 and 2:30 pm on the 13th. On line 13, it says RL told them his cousin arrived to pick him up at 3 pm. Not only do these times not match, but this call to his cousin occurred at 9:20 am on the 14th. So, it really does kind of make one wonder why he wanted an alibi for that time specifically, especially now knowing that his phone was used at 2:09 pm around his property (in or around). He wanted an alibi from right at the time of the murders, which is suspect, of course. But yet we know he really did leave for the aquarium shop by at least 4:45ish, based on the receipt time of 5:21.

One thing that stood out was the FBI wanted to seize any device that could have been used to "store evidence of the crime, research ways to conceal a crime or destroy a crime scene." That's probably common procedure, but it makes me curious what he bought at the aquarium store that he needed to drive to Lafayette to get, and also whether some of the crime scene had been destroyed.
Trying to catch up... and not replying specifically to this post, but in general...

Is it possible that during the evening of the 13th, RL became aware due to goings-on around his property, that girls were missing, searches were being performed, and LE would undoubtedly be looking into activity of presumably anyone who lived in the vicinity, as well as potentially CCTV footage in the town area(?)...... I'm wondering if RL had been out that day, perhaps driving without a license, as well as possibly been seen drinking alcohol at a local establishment that afternoon, and he was simply preparing for *just in case* police were to ask about his whereabouts - he didn't want to go to jail for another DUI, or driving without a license since he was a serial offender in that regard? It may have had nothing specifically to do with the girls, or their murders.. but something to do with his own awareness of his breach of probation which due to events, may be discovered thanks to general scrutiny in the area. imo.

I am also one who had thought RL had been seen drinking beer at the local pizza shop on the day the girls went missing (13th).... turned out (apparently) that it was a different day altogether, BUT, is it possible that RL had been drinking there, or possibly somewhere else, while having driven his vehicle to get there/leave there, so he wanted to make it look like he hadn't been the one driving at least, but it was never subsequently discovered?

Also, I had not stayed tuned into the daily posts in this thread, and had not realized that Ronald Logan had died in the meantime? Is there an obit or an MSM report?
 

sandy_80

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how can anyone including le view a 77 year old man as the suspect !
when we had this video..he is def younger than 60 and pretty fit and where is the white hair ! his face is also roundish ..these things are visible
his lying about his whereabouts is clearly about his violation of probation
 
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FrostedGlass

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In case anyone can't read the search warrant, I copied the list of things they were looking for. IMO, if they had found anything even remotely solid, they would have charged him.

Authorized to enter into his entire property: dwelling, detached garage, outbuildings and truck

In search of
1. Any and all evidence pertaining to a murder including:
clothing, forensic evidence, blood (seen and unseen), hair, bodily fluids (seen and unseen), fibers, weapons including guns and cutting instruments, electronic devices used to produce the cellular signals detected by LE in the area of the crime scene, animal hair samples.
2. Computers and computer equipment, digital storage devices, tapes, cassettes, cartridges, streaming tape, commercial software and hardware, computer disks, flash drives, disk drives, monitors, computer printers, modems, tape drives, disk application programs, data disks, system disk operating systems, magnetic media floppy disks, computer software, hardware and software operating manuals, tape systems and hard drive and other computer related operation equipment, digital cameras, scanners in addition to computer photographs, Graphic Interchange formats and/or photographs, undeveloped photographic film, slides or other visual depictions of such Graphic Interchange format equipment, and the data stored within these materials, which has been used or may be used to store evidence of the crime, research ways to conceal a crime or destroy a crime scene.
3. Records, documents, writings and correspondence containing information about the crime, crime scene or any individual involved in the crime.
4. Any and all tablets, phones, iPad devices or any and all other electronic devices which may contain digital data.
 

sandy_80

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look its interesting some ppl are implying search warrants has to be ( convincing )
so they can be granted
does that mean some details might not be so accurate ?
the only bit thats news to me.. is no fight or struggle ..that's contrary to libby put up such a fight ?
 

Schatz

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We had the KAK news and affidavit, and now the RL warrant. Little by little, LE is releasing details about the case. We’ve hoped for years we’d get some factual information. It was always kept under wraps to protect the integrity of the case.

But now I’m worried. Is this a sign that LE doesn’t expect to ever bring to trial whoever was responsible for the murders of Abby and Libby?

I feel like someone is strategically and on the sly releasing this info via MS podcast to show the public just why this has been such a tough case to crack. If so, it’s working.

My hunch about RL (and as one who didn’t really pay attention to this case until about a year ago) after reading the affidavit (still haven’t watched any interviews with him yet but plan to) is that RL knew, at least by the evening of the 13th, that 2 girls were missing very near to his house. It is quite customary for people in the vicinity of the missing to search their properties and outbuildings. I would not be surprised if RL did so and found the crime scene and freaked out. He knows he’s on probation, has been violent with other people. Wish we knew more about those texts.
 

Yemelyan

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Trying to catch up... and not replying specifically to this post, but in general...

Is it possible that during the evening of the 13th, RL became aware due to goings-on around his property, that girls were missing, searches were being performed, and LE would undoubtedly be looking into activity of presumably anyone who lived in the vicinity, as well as potentially CCTV footage in the town area(?)...... I'm wondering if RL had been out that day, perhaps driving without a license, as well as possibly been seen drinking alcohol at a local establishment that afternoon, and he was simply preparing for *just in case* police were to ask about his whereabouts - he didn't want to go to jail for another DUI, or driving without a license since he was a serial offender in that regard? It may have had nothing specifically to do with the girls, or their murders.. but something to do with his own awareness of his breach of probation which due to events, may be discovered thanks to general scrutiny in the area. imo.

I am also one who had thought RL had been seen drinking beer at the local pizza shop on the day the girls went missing (13th).... turned out (apparently) that it was a different day altogether, BUT, is it possible that RL had been drinking there, or possibly somewhere else, while having driven his vehicle to get there/leave there, so he wanted to make it look like he hadn't been the one driving at least, but it was never subsequently discovered?

Also, I had not stayed tuned into the daily posts in this thread, and had not realized that Ronald Logan had died in the meantime? Is there an obit or an MSM report?
This current news article states that RL died in 2020: FBI agent: Bodies 'moved and staged' in Delphi murders, suspect took clothing

Edit to add: they probably have the date wrong (based on estate filings) but I would expect them to update; and it's confirmation that he is deceased.
 
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Marzipan

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Don’t we know from witness descriptions that BG had “reddish brown” hair?? RL has white hair and a big white mustache, which wasn’t on either sketch. I don’t see how he could be BG at all. This case is truly baffling.
Thank you for pointing that out. I’m baffled by the same thing. I know there are dyes and disguises but it just doesn’t look like him to me AT ALL. The white hair vs. the reddish brown, seriously. Would love to hear the girlfriends explain what similarities they see.
 

abams

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Except he wasn’t. He drove that morning, breaking the law, not asking for an alibi. And he drove at 4:45, breaking the law, not asking for an alibi. He only asked for an alibi for a time when he wasn’t driving. That’s why it’s so suspicious, he asked for an alibi for the time of the murders before anyone but the killer (and apparently RL) knew there had been a murder.

Yep. Why does he need to claim to be picked up between 2 - 2:30 PM specifically (and the warrant states his phone was pinged in or around his property at 2:09) -- it's a 30 minute drive to the aquarium store and he has a receipt for 5:21 PM. If he was only worried about not being caught driving, why not establish an alibi for when he actually left and returned or even the earlier trip that day.
 

sandy_80

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I respectfully disagree
these are not LEAKS...they are just the podcast being smart about snatching info
it makes zero sense to hold info so close to the chest on claims they are protecting the details only known by the killer..to start randomly giving them thru a podcast !
 

Tiff23fr

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JMO…
The information coming out reminds me of what happened with the Pike County murders. They wanted the perps to talk about the case so they slipped out info and feelers on social media and discussion boards.

“Hagaman said they would put out feelers on social media to try and get the Wagners to talk about the case.”

 

155etta

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In case anyone can't read the search warrant, I copied the list of things they were looking for. IMO, if they had found anything even remotely solid, they would have charged him.

Authorized to enter into his entire property: dwelling, detached garage, outbuildings and truck

In search of
1. Any and all evidence pertaining to a murder including:
clothing, forensic evidence, blood (seen and unseen), hair, bodily fluids (seen and unseen), fibers, weapons including guns and cutting instruments, electronic devices used to produce the cellular signals detected by LE in the area of the crime scene, animal hair samples.
2. Computers and computer equipment, digital storage devices, tapes, cassettes, cartridges, streaming tape, commercial software and hardware, computer disks, flash drives, disk drives, monitors, computer printers, modems, tape drives, disk application programs, data disks, system disk operating systems, magnetic media floppy disks, computer software, hardware and software operating manuals, tape systems and hard drive and other computer related operation equipment, digital cameras, scanners in addition to computer photographs, Graphic Interchange formats and/or photographs, undeveloped photographic film, slides or other visual depictions of such Graphic Interchange format equipment, and the data stored within these materials, which has been used or may be used to store evidence of the crime, research ways to conceal a crime or destroy a crime scene.
3. Records, documents, writings and correspondence containing information about the crime, crime scene or any individual involved in the crime.
4. Any and all tablets, phones, iPad devices or any and all other electronic devices which may contain digital data.
BBM
There it is again. What is it with the animal hair samples?
 

TL4S

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Based on what we see in the RL search affidavit, we know that bloody clothing, a specific souvenir, possible digital documentation, fibers, animal hairs, etc. were pieces of evidence LE was looking for. In the Peru search affidavit, we don't see any of that mentioned, but we also know that search was likely originally based on the ski mask peeper a_shots incident. Yet at that time, KAK was polygraphed about Delphi, as well. So was there ever a second search of the Peru house, this time looking for the other forensic evidence included in the RL search? What about the Nov. 2021 Peru house LE presence?

Part of me, unfortunately, wonders if during the initial searches of KAK's devices, maybe the dropbox account, LE found images of the crime scene. That would be the kind of evidence withheld for trial, I would imagine, so probably not discussed in affidavits and suspect interviews, unless absolutely necessary? IDK. RL search was only a couple weeks after the Peru, so maybe they were looking for that image's original source?

Let's say there is an image, taken after the girls were killed and the scene staged. The key would be to find the device the picture was taken with and its user. It being downloaded onto someone else's device, be it KAK, RL, or anyone else, isn't evidence of them being the killer, per say, only of them being in possession of said image.

Does that even seem plausible?
 
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Diddian

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Yep. Why does he need to claim to be picked up between 2 - 2:30 PM specifically (and the warrant states his phone was pinged in or around his property at 2:09) -- it's a 30 minute drive to the aquarium store and he has a receipt for 5:21 PM. If he was only worried about not being caught driving, why not establish an alibi for when he actually left and returned or even the earlier trip that day.
I remember from earlier in the thread that RL had twice made police reports claiming that individuals were on his property but unauthorized to be so (once residing in his barn and another time breaking into his house).

See reports on March 31 and April 26, 2014:

I'm wondering whether the individual who killed LG and AW may have likewise been residing on RL's property, disposed of his bloody clothing there after the murders, and then left the area. If so, did RL find the bloody clothing on his property and dispose of it (either before or after learning the girls were missing)? Was that what RL's trip to the landfill was about?

In another rural community where our family once had a cabin, I was aware of "down on their luck" landowners renting space on their properties to those who have difficulty finding housing - either because they cannot afford "in-town" rents or because they cannot pass background checks (RSO's or other criminal activity). The renters would "camp" in shabby outbuildings or small camp trailers and I think it likely they paid in cash (that likely went unreported as income to the landowner). I can't help wondering if RL rented out to such folks and then made police reports to have these individuals removed when they became more bother than the small rent they were paying was worth.
 

Justice101

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These newest revelations from the warrant just blow my mind. Even though warrants are meant to only show the evidence to a judge to get approval (and leave out anything that goes against that line of thinking), if you were LE, would you have been pretty sure RL did it??? I think so!

What got RL off the list of suspicion? Proof that he was somewhere else (video proof he was at the aquarium store at a certain time?) Was it verified that the internal clock on the video stamp was accurate?
 

BNA

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I feel like someone is strategically and on the sly releasing this info via MS podcast to show the public just why this has been such a tough case to crack. If so, it’s working.

My hunch about RL (and as one who didn’t really pay attention to this case until about a year ago) after reading the affidavit (still haven’t watched any interviews with him yet but plan to) is that RL knew, at least by the evening of the 13th, that 2 girls were missing very near to his house. It is quite customary for people in the vicinity of the missing to search their properties and outbuildings. I would not be surprised if RL did so and found the crime scene and freaked out. He knows he’s on probation, has been violent with other people. Wish we knew more about those texts.
Maybe RL's dog was out running around and came back bloody. That might explain animal hair evidence.
 

Charlot123

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In the second video look at what Ron is wearing, I found it startling the very first time I saw that clip many years ago.
I'm not sure he's BG, but he shouldn't be discounted because of his age. My dad is 78 and still lifts weights, keeps fit and looks after himself......you see Ron in some clips whipping up and down the hills on his property far better than most, the guy was relatively spry imho, JMOO.
He may not be BG but I'm creeped out by the fact that he was home at the time of the murders and asked a relative to lie and give him an alibi that covered 2-3pm.
The man is deceased now iirc, so whatever he does / did know died with him.

It is all good but at best, it puts RL close to the bridge at the time of the murders.

It doesn’t put the girls close to the bridge as no one saw them there. And now we hear that they had been moved.
 

AC4RD

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My hunch about RL ... is that RL knew, at least by the evening of the 13th, that 2 girls were missing very near to his house. It is quite customary for people in the vicinity of the missing to search their properties and outbuildings. I would not be surprised if RL did so and found the crime scene and freaked out. ...
I've been thinking the same thing, with regard to the "asking for an alibi from a cousin" issue. I suspect there was a lot of gossip and rumor floating around, about the missing girls. Wasn't there a statement that some of the early (2/13 afternoon) searchers asked to look around his property? He certainly might have been aware by the night of 2/13 that girls were missing nearby.

Many possible scenarios exist: RL might have been aware of something happening nearby during the murders, but due to his own legal troubles, wanted to have no involvement at all, lest LE haul him in and sweat him. He might have found out after the murders that they took place on his property. He might just have been aware that girls were missing near his house.

In any of those cases, he might well have decided to lie (by requesting the alibi) so he had a reason to tell police he didn't know anything about it, and gosh, on MY property, you say? I don't know anything, officer, I was at the hospital, reading to sick children. Or buying goldfish, whatever he came up with. Contemptible, if true, to lie to cover up any *possible* clues one might have, but understandable.

Side question: how certain are we that RL really did ask this cousin to lie for him? It says that in a statement but how well is it documented? Are we sure it's true and not rumor or an interrogation tactic?
 

IceIce9

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how can anyone including le view a 77 year old man as the suspect !
when we had this video..he is def younger than 60 and pretty fit and where is the white hair ! his face is also roundish ..these things are visible
his lying about his whereabouts is clearly about his violation of probation
In early months after the murders we had lengthy discussions about RL. Quite a few WS members thought RL fit the build and image of BG. Some who had heard his voice in tv interviews thought his voice sounded similar to BG’s. And many members posted about men they knew personally in their mid to late 70s who would be physically capable.
 

IceIce9

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JMO…
The information coming out reminds me of what happened with the Pike County murders. They wanted the perps to talk about the case so they slipped out info and feelers on social media and discussion boards.

“Hagaman said they would put out feelers on social media to try and get the Wagners to talk about the case.”

I followed the Pike case closely and remember the leaks well. I was a frequent lurker on another site (not WS) where several of us had thought we had figured out one or more of the Wagners were posting.

MOO
 
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