Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #146

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Facinatingtimes

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When I hear: planned, signatures, staged/posed, maybe multiple perps involved, possible pictures/videos, CSAM, social media…. I can’t help but think cult. It sounds dramatic and spooky, but I just can’t help making that association when I put all that together.
 

Trebor5591

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LE has implied or said that the audio recording from Libby's phone was continuous from the "down the hill" order until the murders were committed. So, whoever BG guy was, he was the guy who took them to the crime scene and killed them. If BG was not the killer, LE would know it from the recording. Since early days after the murder, LE has said that BG was the killer.

I believe the audio recording was only 43 seconds and the "Down the hill" comment was towards the end of the recording according to the RL warrant request (see below), so there is no way the audit captured the murder itself.

I think that it would take several minutes, if not more, for Libby and Abby to travel with BG from the end of the bridge, down the hill, cross the creek, and then to the murder site. Just my opinion.

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scruffydog

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I read a lot about this case, and have done so from the beginning. I was working not that far from where the crime occurred, yet no one I talked to knew about the case!! I really do have a hard time believing the perp was RL. I have to say -among other reasons, I do not see a white/gray moustache either in Libby's picture, or in either sketch of the killer. Also having searched his home, barn, property-if there was any evidence, why wasn't he charged with the murders at that time?
I have always felt that the girls were familiar to the killer/killers through some type of social media-and I still feel that way. Which leads straight to KK, and the Anthony shots persona. This may have been discussed-and if it has, I apologise- but I am now wondering if the difference between the 2 sketches was because these were the TWO killers....leading me to wonder-what does KK's father look like??? Where was he when the murders occurred? I'm reading that in the interrogation of KK, it was said that 2 people used the Anthony
shots profile-both from KK's house....hmmmm
 

Ozoner

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Bolded by me...here's one way to think of it that may help it make sense. You're thinking, if I had to kill someone and there was a gun already in my hand, why wouldn't I just use the gun? But there are some murderers who are asking a different question. For them, it's if I WANTED to kill someone, how would I do it? How they would best control a victim or gain the victim's compliance is way different than the fantasy experience they want to have while they commit the murder itself. This type of murderer is often a sexual sadist, IMO, the act of murder is sexually arousing to them. They tend to strangle their victims or use a knife because they are craving a more personal agency with the victim. They are also more likely to bind their victim. My opinions only.

It doesn’t strike me as that unlikely to think he brought the gun along for intimidation purposes while still planning on (or at least hoping to be able to execute) a different method for the actual murders given that many predators get gratification from killing in a specific way.
I would agree with both of these lines of thinking, but I would add that a gun is very loud and could have attracted unwanted attention. Also, guns are pretty expensive. If he had used to gun to kill the girls, then he would have had to destroy it or get rid of it in order to make sure that the police couldn't get a ballistics match some time down the road.
 

Trebor5591

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I read a lot about this case, and have done so from the beginning. I was working not that far from where the crime occurred, yet no one I talked to knew about the case!! I really do have a hard time believing the perp was RL. I have to say -among other reasons, I do not see a white/gray moustache either in Libby's picture, or in either sketch of the killer. Also having searched his home, barn, property-if there was any evidence, why wasn't he charged with the murders at that time?
I have always felt that the girls were familiar to the killer/killers through some type of social media-and I still feel that way. Which leads straight to KK, and the Anthony shots persona. This may have been discussed-and if it has, I apologise- but I am now wondering if the difference between the 2 sketches was because these were the TWO killers....leading me to wonder-what does KK's father look like??? Where was he when the murders occurred? I'm reading that in the interrogation of KK, it was said that 2 people used the Anthony
shots profile-both from KK's house....hmmmm

Here is a news report from march 2022 that provides some information about KK's father and how LE is viewing him.


There is a lot more about KKs father (initials are TK) in this article: A break in the Delphi murders? Transcripts reveal new details
In this article, KK says that LE offered to drop all of his CP charges if KK would confirm that TK murdered the girls.

From the transcript in the cited article:
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Spartygirl

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The cemetery, for some time after the murders, was the place I was certain BG parked.

I no longer believe so.
I still think the cemetery was either where he left after the murders or even where he parked at.
I have thought this since the beginning.
I thought this even more after I was there.

I still think so.
 

Spartygirl

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I would agree with both of these lines of thinking, but I would add that a gun is very loud and could have attracted unwanted attention. Also, guns are pretty expensive. If he had used to gun to kill the girls, then he would have had to destroy it or get rid of it in order to make sure that the police couldn't get a ballistics match some time down the road.
I dont think he used a gun to "kill" the girls.

I think he did have a gun to "control" 2 girls or to threaten them.
 

Betty P

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I believe the audio recording was only 43 seconds and the "Down the hill" comment was towards the end of the recording according to the RL warrant request (see below), so there is no way the audit captured the murder itself.

I think that it would take several minutes, if not more, for Libby and Abby to travel with BG from the end of the bridge, down the hill, cross the creek, and then to the murder site. Just my opinion.

View attachment 345641

Thanks. I'm still keeping an open mind about this part of the evidence. LE went to the judge for RL's search warrant fairly early in the investigation. IIRC, it took the experts a while to retrieve and completely analyze all the digital evidence. The federal agent may have been using info about the audio recording known at that time.

There are a couple of discrepancies between what LE reported about what was heard on the audio and when. There's probably a reason for that and we'll find out eventually. At least I hope we do.
 

insearchoflight

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So the fact this case isn’t solved leads me to believe they do not have DNA of the perp on file. They have KKs dna right? But what about dad’s? Does he have his dna in the system? Even if he didn’t couldn’t they not match it to be related to his son KK. All this to say, I’m really baffled as to why KK or TK not charged. It seems they must be involved. But if they were, surely by now dna would confirm this and charges made??? What am I missing?
 

WildHuncher

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A revolver, with the cylinder loaded (or perhaps unloaded if that was the intent), and the hammer down....one would have to pull the trigger back to charge the gun. This type of pistol definitely makes a clicking sound when cocking it.
Most revolver species can be thumb-cocked. Single action revolvers have to be thumb-cocked in a separate step preceding any trigger pull. Double-action revolvers give you the option to *advertiser censored* and fire with a long-slow trigger pull but you still have the option of cocking first, giving you a shorter, crisper trigger pull for better accuracy. (Yes, there are also hammerless and shrouded hammer designs which have no option but that long trigger pull.)

Thumb-cocking is an option with some semi-auto handgun designs but the far more commonly encountered cocking action is racking the slide.
 

IQuestion

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Here is a news report from march 2022 that provides some information about KK's father and how LE is viewing him.


There is a lot more about KKs father (initials are TK) in this article: A break in the Delphi murders? Transcripts reveal new details
In this article, KK says that LE offered to drop all of his CP charges if KK would confirm that TK murdered the girls.

From the transcript in the cited article:
View attachment 345645
TREBOR5591, excellent information from transcript. But maybe that was just a "throw-a-pitch-and-see-he-swings" kind of scenario. LE has also straight out asked KK if he physically harmed the girls and he said no. Then I listened to a podcast that read the interview from TK's step-daughter and she said the voice on the audio was not TK. She said TK has a high pitched, feminine sounding voice. So, BG is not TK, or the voice we hear is not TK's but an accomplice's or he purposely dropped his voice lower to sound menacing and more authoritative? (Now it makes me wonder if that is why I always thought the voice was a direction instead of command.... something about the voice was not menacing to me. I guess it probably wouldn't register to most but I listen to voices a lot. And only once in 40 years did I ever fail to match up a voice to a gender...and it was embarrassing.)
edited to add, regardless of voice, he sounds like a really bad character.
 
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dotr

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May 18, 2022
''Blood, Sex Staging, Fiber Evidence: Chilling New Details in Murder of Two Delphi Little Girls
41:08
New details were released in the murder investigation of slain Delphi girls, Abby Williams and Libby German. The Murder Sheet podcast made public a redacted search warrant submitted by an FBI agent explaining why there was probable cause to search the property of Ron Logan. The girls' bodies were found on Logan's property. The court documents state that “a large amount of blood was lost by the victims at the crime scene,” meaning the killer would have been covered in blood. The warrant also states the victims didn’t have any defense wounds, but some articles of clothing were taken from them and removed from the scene. The agent suggests the scene had been staged. Joining Nancy Grace Today: Kevin Greenlee - Attorney (Indianapolis, IN), Co-Host, Murder Sheet Podcast, Facebook: "Murder Sheet Discussion Group" Dr. Jorey Krawczyn - Psychologist (Panama City Beach, FL), Adjunct Faculty with Saint Leo University; Research Consultant with Blue Wall Institute, Author: "Operation S.O.S. - Practical Recommendations to Help “Stop Officer Suicide”, bw-institute.com ' Sheryl McCollum - Forensic Expert & Cold Case Investigative Research Institute Founder, ColdCaseCrimes.org, Twitter: @ColdCaseTips Joe Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author, "Blood Beneath My Feet", Host: "Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan" Áine Cain - Senior Reporter, Business Insider (Indianapolis, IN), Co-creator: "Murder Sheet" and "Mystery to Me" Podcasts, Facebook: "Murder Sheet Discussion Group" See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.''
 

JnRyan

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Lets talk guns. If a semi-automatic striker fired pistol was used, there would be no 'click' involved in loading a round in to the chamber. One must 'rack' the slide on a semi-auto, making a distinct sound, a sliding 'schlick, schlick' type sound, not a 'click'. There is no trigger per se on this type of handgun.

Now, if a hammer fired semi-automatic pistol were being used, and it was not 'charged', and there was a live round in the chamber, then one would pull the trigger back to 'charge' the gun, preparing it for firing. I imagine the sound of doing this might be heard on the audio, but IMO it would be unlikely.

A revolver, with the cylinder loaded (or perhaps unloaded if that was the intent), and the hammer down....one would have to pull the trigger back to charge the gun. This type of pistol definitely makes a clicking sound when cocking it.

The whole idea of a 'click' being heard on the tape is hard for me to fathom, with the muffled sound of the voice being what it is.

So, if indeed LE has stated a 'click' is the sound of a gun being 'charged' then it would be either a hammer fired semi-automatic pistol or a revolver, the revolver being my best guess.

Note here, that a rifle or shotgun, in some cases depending on the type of weapon, would need to have the trigger pulled back to charge it for firing. But my thought is that there likely was no long gun used in this crime, and if so, the chances of it being a bolt action or semi-automatic rifle would be greater, and those type long guns for the most part don't involve pulling a trigger back to prepare them for firing. They are 'charged' for firing in different manners, some by the bolt, some by racking as in pump shotguns etc, and some by what's actually called a charging handle.

Lastly, it could be that a click might be heard, though extremely unlikely, in either a striker fired or hammer fired pistol when the safety is switched on, or off, provided the pistol is equipped with a safety. But this 'click' would be even less noticeable than the sound of charging a revolver, if even noticeable at all.

In either case, when a revolver is charged, the trigger needs very little pull pressure to cause the gun to fire. Same being with a hammer fired semi automatic. If the safety is off on a hammer fired semi automatic pistol, and the trigger is pulled backwards, the trigger at that point is extremely touchy, and will fire with a minimum of pull pressure.

Why all this? Well, it's educational, plus, IMO, IF there was a click actually heard, I'd guess it to have come from a revolver, and second to that, one of John Moses Browning's 1911 designs, or a hammer fired semi-automatic, the revolver being most likely to make a noticeable noise when charging the trigger.
And that pretty much covered it.
 

Hoosier952

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It seems like this case is just full of coincidences at every turn, yet I've not read a single thing that convinces me any of the names that have been brought up as potential POIs are guilty of anything.
TK is the only one who has really made me wonder, but I have to consider whether LE are trying to get KK to rat out TK not because of any real evidence against him, but rather they have no real evidence against anyone and the A_S account is the only solid lead they have. Plus his history is pretty awful, with both women and children. I also think it's worth noting KK's LE interview transcript was prior to KK having a public defender. He had a PD for the HLN interview. I know his PD is only for the CSAM charges, but surely there would be some overlap since a victim of his catfishing also happened to be murdered after a recent conversation with an account tied to KK.


Between the changing sketches, removing identifying information from the FBI site, the uncertainty with the DNA. I assume they took RL's DNA sometime early on when visiting, and if not, they certainly would have when he was arrested for a felony. They've got KK's DNA and therefore TK's partial DNA. They've got JBC's, GK's, DN's, PE's DNA too.
 

steeltowngirl

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So the fact this case isn’t solved leads me to believe they do not have DNA of the perp on file. They have KKs dna right? But what about dad’s? Does he have his dna in the system? Even if he didn’t couldn’t they not match it to be related to his son KK. All this to say, I’m really baffled as to why KK or TK not charged. It seems they must be involved. But if they were, surely by now dna would confirm this and charges made??? What am I missing?
Per KK‘s interview, he stated they took his DNA. BP also stated she was told they have DNA. But Sheriff Leazenby also said on the HLN documentary that LE does not know if they have the killer’s DNA or fingerprints.


During the interview, Kline also twice references a polygraph test that he was given in the Delphi murder investigation, and both times indicates police told him he failed the test.

Investigators ask Kline, “why would you after you failed the polygraph about knowing about the Delphi investigation, come home, delete your Snapchat and your Instagram, which you used to communicate with Libby and then you searched, ‘how long does D.N.A last?’ Why would you do that?”

Kline responds, “I have no clue. I don’t know. Probably because they D.N.A tested me.”


During an interview with FOX News senior correspondent Laura Ingle on Monday night, Liberty “Libby” German’s grandmother Becky Patty said police mentioned finding DNA evidence.

“Police have said there was DNA. They have made the comment that there was DNA,” Patty told Ingle.
 

sandy_80

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It seems like this case is just full of coincidences at every turn, yet I've not read a single thing that convinces me any of the names that have been brought up as potential POIs are guilty of anything.
TK is the only one who has really made me wonder, but I have to consider whether LE are trying to get KK to rat out TK not because of any real evidence against him, but rather they have no real evidence against anyone and the A_S account is the only solid lead they have. Plus his history is pretty awful, with both women and children. I also think it's worth noting KK's LE interview transcript was prior to KK having a public defender. He had a PD for the HLN interview. I know his PD is only for the CSAM charges, but surely there would be some overlap since a victim of his catfishing also happened to be murdered after a recent conversation with an account tied to KK.


Between the changing sketches, removing identifying information from the FBI site, the uncertainty with the DNA. I assume they took RL's DNA sometime early on when visiting, and if not, they certainly would have when he was arrested for a felony. They've got KK's DNA and therefore TK's partial DNA. They've got JBC's, GK's, DN's, PE's DNA too.
its seemingly hard to take the simple answer
that BG is not caught .. cause he is UNKNOWN and UNCONNECTED to the victims in any way
and if there is a zillion suspicious ppl connected to the scene...that will not change anything.. its a waste of time and resources
jmo
 

FromGermany1

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I dont think he used a gun to "kill" the girls.

I think he did have a gun to "control" 2 girls or to threaten them.
I wonder, if using 2 methods of killing by the BG (as shooting and beating/cutting with an object or strangling) are counted as one of "at least 3 signatures" perhaps?
Google:
A signature refers to the distinctive behaviors that help to serve the criminal's psychological and emotional needs. Physical evidence helps to establish the signature behaviors of the criminal who committed the specific crime.
 
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