Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #146

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cuecard

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LE praises L for having the presence of mind to start the camera on her phone as BG approached. It seems from what they've said, that they do think it was a purposeful move on L's part, because the man made them uneasy. It was heroic, and I agree.

But IMO, as 13 and 14 year old victims, it places an unnecessary burden on them to assume they would have acted in a certain way. For years I've seen it mentioned that they would have screamed, fled, left clues, stayed together voluntarily, fought like hell, etc. Now we get indications that maybe they did not do all those things, but that should not make us doubt the evidence. These two young girls were under the control of at least one adult man with a weapon, intending to harm them. It's been said they were killed "within minutes" of L's video.

We just don't know the way this crime unfolded between the end of the bridge and the location they were found.
I agree completely. I have seen a few comments regarding the surprise at the lack of any apparent struggle. I think we have to remember that they were 13 and 14 years old and put in a terrifying situation that ultimately ended their lives in the most horrific way.

They were kids going on a walk and all of a sudden they were ambushed by a literal monster. We don’t know the exact details of everything that played out but even if we did, it’s really easy to think we would have ran away or screamed or fought back, but in that moment of finding yourself in a situation like that, you simply have no idea how you will react.

We may have an image or idea of what we might do if presented with that situation, but actually being there in that moment and facing what they did is a whole different ball game.
 

newredtabby

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I read through the RL search warrant that has come to light and found some interesting connections. The warrant references RLs phone making a call at 2:09 the afternoon of the killings, in the general area of the MHB. It also speaks to RLs phone sending a text that evening and receiving a text later that same evening. Both of the RL phone texts that night were outside his home, and in the vicinity of the crime scene.

The RL warrant also is very specific about looking for phones, ipads, storage devices, computers, etc that could capture / hold / send GIFs. Lastly, there is mention that souvenirs and/or PICTURES of the crime scene were likely taken. It seems like LE thought RL might have taken pics of the bodies and sent them to someone who might be interested in such a thing. Maybe someone who had a Dropbox full of CSAM, for instance. Notably, a week after RLs search warrant KAK got one of his very own.
 

Ravenmoon

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BBM, I don’t know that those are mutually exclusive. I think RL could be BG but not the killer and not the catfisher.

In most cases you KISS (keep it simple s…) but this case seems like it’s anything but simple. KAK seems to have started the AS account but doesn’t seem to be the one who was talking to Libby. AS seems to be who catfished Libby, possibly luring her to the bridge. The catfish may or may not be the killer. RL seems to have been involved or aware of what happened but IMO probably not the killer.

RL may be BG, as stated above by @Barbieshell , maybe he chased the girls away as the were at the end of the bridge. Maybe when he heard later that day they were missing he freaked out for having encountered them and sending them “down the hill” and went looking for them, found them dead, then decided he needed an alibi.

But the chances of these poor girls encountering so much evil from multiple sources seems astronomical.
KAK was talking to Libby.
He has said so.
He said Libby was annoying , and claims that he blocked her. ( Doubtful, unlikely , basically ridiculous)
He continued to message Libby after her death despite having the knowledge that she was gone.


MOO

EBM sp
 
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m00c0w

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I read through the RL search warrant that has come to light and found some interesting connections. The warrant references RLs phone making a call at 2:09 the afternoon of the killings, in the general area of the MHB. It also speaks to RLs phone sending a text that evening and receiving a text later that same evening. Both of the RL phone texts that night were outside his home, and in the vicinity of the crime scene.

The RL warrant also is very specific about looking for phones, ipads, storage devices, computers, etc that could capture / hold / send GIFs. Lastly, there is mention that souvenirs and/or PICTURES of the crime scene were likely taken. It seems like LE thought RL might have taken pics of the bodies and sent them to someone who might be interested in such a thing. Maybe someone who had a Dropbox full of CSAM, for instance. Notably, a week after RLs search warrant KAK got one of his very own.
KAK’s search warrant was executed on 2/25/17. RL’s was executed on 3/17/17.

Furthermore, I haven’t seen anything to suggest LE thought RL “sent them to someone who might be interested in such a thing”. They thought souvenirs might have been taken, as a memento or to memorialize it. They included boilerplate language for photographs and things that can store photos, as a result.

It’s quite a stretch to think RL somehow knew KAK, killed two girls, took photos of the crime scene, and then sent those photos to KAK for some reason… while also leaving the girls on his property.

JMO
 

Ravenmoon

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So IOW, just as another example if the initial CS investigators state the victim didn't appear to struggle/fight AND the ME later finds tissue under the victim's fingernails can one state there was 'no visible sign of a struggle'?

In my example, is such a statement in an affidavit really truthful? It makes me wonder what the writer is trying to convey to the judge. A quick, cold execution style murder?

I've never been involved in writing or assisting with an affidavit - not for a murder at least - so I don't know if the presence or absence of a struggle is boilerplate stuff. If it isn't I don't see the purpose of even commenting on it.

What if they didn't struggle because they thought this guy was someone they were safe with- what if he really did pose as LE? Nothing would surprise me anymore.
Who knows, maybe he even cuffed them and told them it was "just until they were off the trail?"

MOO JMO
 

m00c0w

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If the girls were bound or there was evidence of being bound, I feel like that would have been made apparent in RL’s search warrant. They would have included handcuffs or the binding material in the items to search for. Even if the material was removed from the crime scene, there would still be evidence they were bound - especially with something like zip ties or handcuffs as I’ve seen suggested by a few folks.

JMO
 

jash

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I read through the RL search warrant that has come to light and found some interesting connections. The warrant references RLs phone making a call at 2:09 the afternoon of the killings, in the general area of the MHB. <snipped for focus>

You raise an interesting point. RL's phone made a call at 2:09 pm. Libby started recording the video of BG four minutes later at 2:13 pm. In my mind, that means RL isn't BG... I just don't see BG calling someone from the vicinity of the bridge with Libby and Abby in sight.
 

steeltowngirl

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I am thinking something along the lines of RL noticing someone in the vicinity and not mentioning to LE. Or withholding information of some sort.

I saw RL interviews countless times on all the local indianapolis news channels and I have a hard time seeing him as a catfishing, depraved killer as well.

I agree. But then I think back to BTK Dennis Rader. Active in his church, Boy Scout leader. “Community will be shocked”. “Hiding in plain sight”. Etc.
 

m00c0w

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Has anyone found evidence that RL knew/was aware of KAK, TK, A_S, etc? Other than the BM interview of KAK?
None that I have seen. KAK/TK and RL seemed to live such different lives it’s hard to see how they would have come across each other, especially given the distance between them. The BM interview is the only place I’ve seen it addressed, and that was far from a positive finding.
 

sandy_80

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I agree completely. I have seen a few comments regarding the surprise at the lack of any apparent struggle. I think we have to remember that they were 13 and 14 years old and put in a terrifying situation that ultimately ended their lives in the most horrific way.

They were kids going on a walk and all of a sudden they were ambushed by a literal monster. We don’t know the exact details of everything that played out but even if we did, it’s really easy to think we would have ran away or screamed or fought back, but in that moment of finding yourself in a situation like that, you simply have no idea how you will react.

We may have an image or idea of what we might do if presented with that situation, but actually being there in that moment and facing what they did is a whole different ball game.
the surprise only comes cause its contradictory to what what alway stated by the family
that libby especially put up a big fight .. did they simply invent this ?
that came from the families right

.............
 

Ravenmoon

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the surprise only comes cause its contradictory to what what alway stated by the family
that libby especially put up a big fight .. did they simply invent this ?
that came from the families right

.............

Okay- It originated with texts (that have never been verified or proven to be authentic) by a family member of AW .
Then- it was repeated in some way by MP . With MP I think that it was something along the lines of "Libby would have put up a hell of a fight." IMO, that is because of his personal history and experience with Libby. He raised her and knew that she would not just give her life away without trying to protect herself or Abby- it was her character.

I don't think that he had any information from LE or anyone that was in the Coroners office that corroborated that information.

JMO MOO
 

newredtabby

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KAK’s search warrant was executed on 2/25/17. RL’s was executed on 3/17/17.

Furthermore, I haven’t seen anything to suggest LE thought RL “sent them to someone who might be interested in such a thing”. They thought souvenirs might have been taken, as a memento or to memorialize it. They included boilerplate language for photographs and things that can store photos, as a result.

It’s quite a stretch to think RL somehow knew KAK, killed two girls, took photos of the crime scene, and then sent those photos to KAK for some reason… while also leaving the girls on his property.

JMO

You are correct about the dates. Thanks. Have you read the RL search warrant? It is clearly geared towards the things I mentioned. It is also evident that they think the killer may well have taken pictures of the scene, not just the clothing souvenirs.

Also the KAK interviewer specifically asked him if he knew RL and followed up with "interesting" when he denied it.

Lastly, I said nothing about RL killing the girls. My thoughts may not fit your narrative, but that doesn't mean its "quite a stretch". It's important to be open to all possible scenarios, and what I posted is entirely plausible given what we now know about the crime.

Peace
 

IceIce9

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the surprise only comes cause its contradictory to what what alway stated by the family
that libby especially put up a big fight .. did they simply invent this ?
that came from the families right

.............
A family member stating “Libby would have put up a fight” isn’t the same as knowing she put up a fight. We don’t have any confirmation that she did.
 

newredtabby

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None that I have seen. KAK/TK and RL seemed to live such different lives it’s hard to see how they would have come across each other, especially given the distance between them. The BM interview is the only place I’ve seen it addressed, and that was far from a positive finding.
It's easy to imagine them coming across each other online if they had similar "interests". I have no idea if they did, but I am sure KAK had relationships with people from all walks of life, all over the world given his "line of work".

Again, I have no idea if they are connected, but I believe LE thought they might be given the wording of RLs search warrant.

"Know what your kids are doing online".

JMO, of course.
 

cuecard

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the surprise only comes cause its contradictory to what what alway stated by the family
that libby especially put up a big fight .. did they simply invent this ?
that came from the families right

.............
Prior to this I had never seen confirmation from any legit source that they did put up a fight, but this warrant clearly states that there were no signs. Family members may have said it because they know them and that's what they would like to believe happened, and I think in these circumstances that's okay.
 
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