Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #146

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IQuestion

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Pertaining to attention seeking, that was what i was referring to .

In some cases offenders inject themselves into the investigation in order, to gain information, he may have attempted to do that , but theres zero indication of anyone contacting police to taunt, or claim responsibility for thes 2 murders.

Carters statement is most likely pertaining to this fact.

And i 100% believe this individual was interviewed, they usually are withing the first 2 weeks , but theres something that they cant get past to link them to the crime .
Kell1...yep "something they can't get past to link them to the crime." Hmmm, I am thinking a relative who would go to their grave protecting the secrets of their child/spouse (ie provided an alibi or refuse to speak with LE.) Or, some really clever high tec whiz who put his phone on call forwarding so actual location would be impossible to prove? Or leave their cell phone in one location and use a "cloned burner phone" that simultaneously received same info.
I remember a case a long time ago in which police were able to clone the number on a pager and followed a suspect. Other thoughts (swirling all the time) if this was about cell phone/internet stuff...only one victim possessed a cell phone right? Then it would stand, if a meet up was planned, the attacker did not expect the second victim. Were the victims "treated" differently? Was the purpose to silence victim(?) , sexually assault victim (?) or avoidance of being exposed as a perv? How far would a desperate "pedo" go to protect their reputation, job, spouse, family etc. ??
Maybe that is how the killer can justify or live with this... a it was a "them or me scenario." In his selfish, self-centered mind, exposure was a fate worse than death.
*** Life is precious and no one had the right to take those young lives.***
 

UnapologeticallyAspie

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Now, I'm willing to consider it's possible a_shots and the Ks are only a middleman between the killer and the girls, but as of yet, I haven't seen anything convincingly tying any of the many POI's (per the public) to the Ks or the CSAM ring. It will be curious to see where this goes.
Snipped by me for focus.

It’s good to see that someone else besides myself considers the possibility that the Ks and a_shots are only a middleman/men between the killer and the girls or a CSAM ring.

When the KK & the a_shots were first mentioned to us (the public) I stated here on the thread, several months ago, that (IMHO) KK was not the killer but that he was apart of a (large) pedo ring.

JMVHO YMMV
 

BNA

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We can, if we base it off what LE has released, IE evidence, and in no way have the indicated the suspect has been in contact with them or anyone else .

To surmise, (based on what info I have no idea) that they have, with zero evidence to support is pure conjecture

If he contacted LE, they wouldnt have a feeling, they'd know
We slhould consider that the mistake the killer made, referred to by DC, is that he placed himself in contact with LE. I know my POI sure did that.
 

helenann2k

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I've gone back and forth between two personal POIs. From the very early days, I really thought RL was suspicious, but as time passed, and LE didn't confirm my idea, I moved on. Since the KK a_shots info was revealed, I have been of the mind that if it looks like a duck and smells like a duck, and quacks like a duck...then the person who was a known CSAM criminal who was in contact with one of the victims right before they were killed is the duck. (Having said that, I admit that reading the LE evidence on RL made me rethink a bit.) So what do I think is the issue with no arrests? IMO perhaps the DNA they have doesn't match KK. Or maybe the DNA was compromised and so it is not able to be used as evidence. ALL MY OPINION ONLY.
 

scruffydog

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Obviously a fashion stylist for BG was nowhere to be found. No point wasting time and energy on hair dye and makeup, then to wear clothes hardly one up from a homeless person if the notion is this person intended to trick teens into believing he was attractive.
I actually just chuckled, but have to say...I am from Michigan, and the clothing BG was wearing is completely normal in the Midwest. We are not in a high fashion area, and that clothing was so generic that a million people could have been wearing it. Our homeless people are much scruffier. Not trying to be rude, but that's just the truth. Additionally, "guys" is a completely normal way to address people in the Midwest, I've used it when talking to men, women and children.
 

Charlot123

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Can it be a coincidence, if A/L communicated with a-shots since weeks and also on Febr 13th, but a serial killer was on his mission at the MHB area and looked for his next victim/s on Febr 13th (because it was his free Monday or because it was one day before Valentin)?
IF the killer is someone, who stalked his future victim on the basis "young, female, out of a broken family (sorry, but it is fact), living in the same state or an adjacent state, precocius (or some other characteristics) in her SM", he might have found L on her several accounts and became interested for some (odd) reason. Maybe, the real killer has nothing to do with child p*rn, but "needed" some thrill kill/s (?) now and then. The real killer made all the child p*rn men (a "ring"?) very suspect, perhaps not even intentional at all.
Can it be? I don't know.

Either Valentine was a day when someone dumped him, and it became a “gift to all women”, or, if we still assume that the Delphi and Evansdale murders are connected, then it may be simple.

No palindromes, but holidays.

7/13 is the eve of another big holiday, albeit not a US one, the Bastille Day. Aside from France, It is celebrated in Montreal and many parts of Canada. And who said both couples were not killed in the early hours of 2/14 or 7/14?

Maybe he planned Independence Day, but didn’t find appropriate victims, so it fell on another big holiday. Non-US, but big in Francophone places. “He”, the murderer, is pretty educated, I think. Or perhaps has some connection to Canada.

I think he lived in both IN and IA, and he has a “landing pad” in both states. Relatives, former girlfriends? I think he is on the fringe of CSAM group, not quite “them”.

P.S. and he probably moves. And if someone, like me, thinks he is into holidays, I’d check disappearances around Cinco de Mayo. Not because of his connection to Mexico, simply, easy to abduct on that day. JMO.
 
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FromGermany1

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Either Valentine was a day when someone dumped him, and it became a “gift to all women”, or, if we still assume that the Delphi and Evansdale murders are connected, then it may be simple.

No palindromes, but holidays.

7/13, surprisingly, is the eve of another big holiday, Bastille Day. Let Canadians correct me, but in Canada, it is like Independence Day in the US? And who said both couples were not killed in the early hours of 2/14 or 7/14?

Maybe he planned Independence Day, but didn’t find appropriate victims, so it fell on another big holiday. “He”, the murderer, is pretty educated, I think.

I think he lived in both IN and IA, and he has a “landing pad” in both states. Relatives, former girlfriends? I think he is on the fringe of CSAM group, not quite “them”.
IF the BG had a partner in crime (accomplice), it maybe, this partner is perverse member of a "ring". BG is not, but participated in his partner's knowledge (which girl - which time - which location). Speculation by me.
 

FromGermany1

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I agree, and attention seeking isnt always as obvious as David Berkowitz, but if it anything , its obvious.

Thres a HUGE disparity between attention seeking, staging and simply displaying a victim .

Staging is basically an attempt (usually poorly) t make a crime look like something else, for ex, you may have what looks like a robbery gone wrong but the victim was stabbed 50 times, drawers are dumped, out, things of value arent missing, and obvious items, such as cash in the victims purse, arent taken.

Posing a victim is different, thats usually unique to the offender, and most often has 3 reasons , 1) Its a ritualistic part of the assault and fills a psychological need for the offender 2) To shock whomever, finds the body, 3) as an act of further degradation to the victim

The Hillside stranglers, posed, bodies for 2 reasons, 1) to shock whomever found the bodies, and 2) to further degrade the deceased.

But NONE of them were seeking attention, those post mortem posing were keys to their psyche, who both (especially Bianchi) were psychopaths, but neither wanted any notoriety for their acts , the posing of victims, was simply an extension of their hatred for women.

Attention seeking is pretty rare its also a really good opportunity to get a look at the true motivations of a particular criminal

Hiding bodies, in a remote area (which is common in most child murders) to most experienced investigators,doesn't scream "attention seeking"
"Attention seaking" maybe in the play, if the killer is striving for all the media reports and SM-storm (also forums) for years to come after the double murder. "Attention seaking" maybe his method of escaping fast and unseen (?) like a ghost as well as of not getting caught for a very long time, although hiding in plain sight.
Just my opinion as a layman. ;)
 

FromGermany1

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We can, if we base it off what LE has released, IE evidence, and in no way have the indicated the suspect has been in contact with them or anyone else .

To surmise, (based on what info I have no idea) that they have, with zero evidence to support is pure conjecture

If he contacted LE, they wouldnt have a feeling, they'd know
bbm
If this person just seems to be IMPOSSIBLE to be an evil murderer - would they trust their own thoughts?
 

Charlot123

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<modsnip: Quoted post was removed>

I have several personal pois. One, probably, is unrelated, but I consider his psychotype the closest to the Delphi killer, so I use it to describe what I don’t understand. Another one is on the older age of their age range, maybe older than 41, and he simply has all means. With him, I wonder if the choice of the day was guided by a very good alibi, as he didn’t have to be around that place on that day, but could have switched places easily and none the wiser. Moreover, most LE would simply need to look at official alibi, and he is far from Delphi on that day. He doesn’t need SM to hear about the girls, but I bet he uses it. He is much savvier than his job makes one allege.

Lastly, I was thinking (because I always think about cell company, or something like it).

We all assume that Libby did a factory reset for a reason. But what if, indeed, her phone was malfunctioning, and she, as many of us, called for help? It is way more reasonable than ask an adult. She could call her cell carrier, or iphone rep. It might have happened several times, and he could have advised her to do the reset. It could be that simple. In old times, these reps were local, and more knowledgeable. In the meantime, if he preys on young women, he could have gotten a lot of information about her.
 
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Kell1

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"Attention seaking" maybe in the play, if the killer is striving for all the media reports and SM-storm (also forums) for years to come after the double murder. "Attention seaking" maybe his method of escaping fast and unseen (?) like a ghost as well as of not getting caught for a very long time, although hiding in plain sight.
Just my opinion as a layman. ;)
That not attention seeking, that's simply following their crimes, and thats usually to keep tabs on the investigation so as to not get caught
 

Awsi Dooger

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I have stared at the video, paused, slowmo, etc since the day it came out entirely too much.
I never got the hat thing as to me it only looks like hair with a part close to the middle. It is too pixilated to make much more of than that. even blown up, I cant make out a hat, and at no point does it look like the hoodie is up to me. JMO.
That is the correct interpretation of the video and the suspect. It is by far the greatest piece of evidence in the case, far beyond any of the recent gibberish. Bridge Guy is a young guy with a thick mop of brown hair and bangs covering his forehead. The part is evident at the crown. The hoodie is hanging behind his shoulders.

I concede that I argued otherwise several years ago, including here. I was convinced it was not hair only. Fortunately I wised up severely and defaulted to big picture realities. Distortion can only add. It does not subtract. If one version looks obvious as a hat and another version obvious as hair only, then the only reliable one is hair only. Distortion added the impression of a hat that was not there.

One or both of the Klines would have been arrested long ago, if not for presence of that video. Law enforcement would have been convinced that all the social media stuff had to link to guilt. Instead I have no idea how anyone can ignore that all of the second opinion and outside review stuff happened long after the Klines were a known quantity. So not only was Delphi not laser focusing on the Klines but obviously the outside review agency didn't suggest in that direction either. Otherwise Delphi never releases and promotes a sketch of a wavy haired young guy who looks nothing like either Kline. The Klines stuff was well known when Robert Ives was still involved, the same Robert Ives who emphasized to a high profile podcast series that he never came close to thinking it was more likely than not that a particular person he was aware of had committed the crime.

Anyone would be convicted in this case. That is obvious by the immediate avalanche of 99% certainty toward any name that surfaces, from Daniel Nations onward. Juries are comprised of housewife types who always think the boyfriend or spouse is guilty. That type is incredibly brainwashed by law enforcement and can't imagine that side ever misdirecting, concealing, or telling blatant falsehoods. I am convinced that Delphi now wants to get this over with. Mike Patty twice begged for an arrest during the HLN special. "They owe me an arrest." Not much later the height/weight was removed. We didn't mean that anyway. What are the odds it would have been removed if a perfect match to Tony Kline?

Law enforcement doesn't have direct or solid evidence against anyone. I think they'll soon set that aside and allow their best semblance of Leah Askey to get up there and make things up day after day, using the social media stuff as stickum.
 

Kell1

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Kell1...yep "something they can't get past to link them to the crime." Hmmm, I am thinking a relative who would go to their grave protecting the secrets of their child/spouse (ie provided an alibi or refuse to speak with LE.) Or, some really clever high tec whiz who put his phone on call forwarding so actual location would be impossible to prove? Or leave their cell phone in one location and use a "cloned burner phone" that simultaneously received same info.
I remember a case a long time ago in which police were able to clone the number on a pager and followed a suspect. Other thoughts (swirling all the time) if this was about cell phone/internet stuff...only one victim possessed a cell phone right? Then it would stand, if a meet up was planned, the attacker did not expect the second victim. Were the victims "treated" differently? Was the purpose to silence victim(?) , sexually assault victim (?) or avoidance of being exposed as a perv? How far would a desperate "pedo" go to protect their reputation, job, spouse, family etc. ??
Maybe that is how the killer can justify or live with this... a it was a "them or me scenario." In his selfish, self-centered mind, exposure was a fate worse than death.
*** Life is precious and no one had the right to take those young lives.***
Its usually an alibi they cant get past, or lack of any real physical evidence.

There have been cases, where people have come in and confessed, to murders, but there was no evidence to link them to it therefore (after a period of time) they had to be let go .

AS for the interaction with the victims, you could be correct in asserting that he wasn't expecting 2 people to be there, we don't know because no information regarding how the girls were killed or even what took place has been released.

Ill try to answer your questions individually"

Were the victims "treated" differently? - I cant say, its possible, but without any information, its all theory.

Was the purpose to silence victim(?) , sexually assault victim (?) or avoidance of being exposed as a perv?- Again we cant know because nothing pertaining to how the girls were killed has been released. I will say that certain things such as a sadistic motive dont really hold up given the location, it seems this was more a brief, and violent interaction, its entirely possible the offender planned to kill the girls , but we simply cant know . I will say in most cases, the murder of the victim is to prevent identification following a sexual assault, but that can be wither be planned or a due to panic post offense

The Why is usually unique to the offender, some dont want to be outed as a deviant, but thats often already well known, MOST, simply dont want to go back to prison, some panic, with a crying victim, some may actually enjoy watching someone die at their hand..again we cant know because LE has a lid on everything.

The overwhelming majority of these crimes are sexually motivated.

How far would a desperate "pedo" go to protect their reputation, job, spouse, family etc. ??- Well usually they arent trying to protect anything other than themselves, they are often out of work, living with their parents or some other relative, They have a history of frequent moves and address changes, and thats usually tied, to their deviant behavior IE they got caught doing something somewhere else, and had to "go live with their aunty and uncle in Bel-Air", if you get what i mean .

They are often classified, as "Social Marginals", preferring a clandestine and culturally subdued lifestyle.

They are often driven by intense sexual urges, even more so because what they desire is illegal and not as easy to come by as a consenting adult , these urges well up , often with the help of materials traded on the internet , so much so that they are willing to risk incarceration to do so such as trading in Child sexual materials, etc.. they may try other means of sexual expression such as exposing themselves to their desired victim type etc, they may patronize prostitutes, that resemble their desired victim range, but that is rare , most are left to masturbatory practices, however that eventually becomes unsatisfying , and they may move to try to molest a child, or in some cases, if no adult is around , abduction and rape .

Maybe that is how the killer can justify or live with this... a it was a "them or me scenario." In his selfish, self-centered mind, exposure was a fate worse than death. -Its not so much exposure they fear, its incarceration, they usually live a lifestyle where noone knows who they really are anyway. You'd probably be stunned, how many sex offenders live near you if you check your states registry, however how many of them will you remember in a few hours?, what happens when these lower level offenders finish their sentence? they get out, yes they are under supervision, but for how long ? does that prevent them from re-offending ? not at all.

They arent worried about being outed as a sexual deviant, often those around them already know they are , they are worried about being sent to prison where those who commit crimes, against kids are usually extorted, exploited and pandered out to other inmates for fear of being killed.



Its difficult to control 2 victims, it can be done, but its difficult , one may make a break for it , or do something like scream to attract attention. so most often one incapacitated in some way (tied up, or isolated some how, killed or severely injured), but this can also happen under threat "you move and ill kill you or her"

The problem for the offender is when he murders one with the other still alive, especially if the living victim saw the other killed, now the individual knows what is going to happen.

Because we dont know anything about the interaction between killer and victim(s) in this case, we can only base an analysis on what little info we know.

Anything else is pure conjecture .

He either came upon these 2 by chance, (saw them enter, followed them or was there himself already) , or it wasnt a chance meeting , IE he knew they or at least one of them were gong to be there so its 50/50

How he gained control of the victims, was either force, producing a weapon, (or threat of force) or by ruse, such as producing a badge, or conning the victims to come with him to meet someone, or see something, again its 50/50

Motive , has to be left to the odds, and overwhelmingly these crimes, are sexually motivated, therefore i strongly lean toward that , it could be wrong, but without any information we have to go with percentages. There are other possibilities (anger, revenge etc..) but the numbers and from the way LE is leaning I feel this was a sexually motivated crime .

How they were killed is still a mystery, I have my feeling, which I wont disclose, but there are several possibilities, controlling multiple victims is easiest with a firearm, even if it wasn't used to kill the victims, many killers use firearms to gain control then resort to other (usually more brutal) methods to kill their victims, however depending on the level of compliance by the victims, sometimes, just threatening violence is enough to get victims to comply.

Body recovery location: Think about it, if you are going to sexually assault and murder someone, are you going to do that where you will be seen ? Not usually , hence whey in these cases, 1) the offender is usually most familiar and comfortable with the body recovery site and 2) The offender usually hides the body to avoid detection and 3) The body recovery site and the murder scene are usually 1 and the same or very close to each other
 

FrostedGlass

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@Awsi Dooger I especially agree with this part of your post. I was one of those who could not imagine things like that being done until I've seen it happen in court cases I've followed.

"Anyone would be convicted in this case. That is obvious by the immediate avalanche of 99% certainty toward any name that surfaces, from Daniel Nations onward. Juries are comprised of housewife types who always think the boyfriend or spouse is guilty. That type is incredibly brainwashed by law enforcement and can't imagine that side ever misdirecting, concealing, or telling blatant falsehoods."
 

MistyWaters

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I actually just chuckled, but have to say...I am from Michigan, and the clothing BG was wearing is completely normal in the Midwest. We are not in a high fashion area, and that clothing was so generic that a million people could have been wearing it. Our homeless people are much scruffier. Not trying to be rude, but that's just the truth. Additionally, "guys" is a completely normal way to address people in the Midwest, I've used it when talking to men, women and children.

Sorry not intending to stereotype in a derogatory way, that style of casual everyday clothing is absolutely common amongst young and old males in rural areas where I live too. I was really trying to avoid the term “grandpa” clothing which has been said here many times. Regardless if BG was attempting to dye his hair and wear makeup to pass himself off as the person in the Anthony Shots pic, he obviously overlooked a very important detail of similar clothing attire. JMO
 
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