Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #146

Status
Not open for further replies.

Charlot123

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2018
Messages
5,526
Reaction score
36,493
Thanks KELL1, Can always rely on you to give background on possible type of offender. Are you saying it is a pent up resentment (anger towards females, job, relatives, health, break up) as you wrote, "fueled by sexual materials the offender likes?" Even if it was a growing compulsion, wouldn't the offender still use other "instincts/familiar locale/learned behavior/skills" to offend, attack and escape. Afterall, this wasn't a crazed surfer who attacks women on the beach, a co-worker who traps a female employee in the company parking structure, a guy who drugs a woman at a bar etc.
What bothers me the most is the use of words like "sickness" and "problem".... euphemisms to describe unspeakable criminal issues. These guys know it is immoral, they know it is criminal and why (IMO) they work so hard to hide their activities. The offender knows it is wrong and yet still commit the crime..... in my book that is premeditation.
(I still see the step-drag-step drag type of gait as BG approached...even if no one else does. The planks aren't as damaged at either end of the bridge. I wish the pressers had never said he walked that way because the bridge was dilapidated and to look at mannerisms instead. C'mon I didn't say I saw baby goats, too.)

Once, a fashionable specialist in sex addiction mentioned not having a computer in his office. I was surprised as he was very well-off, and in my naïveté, I didn’t get any idea of what it really meant (“he can afford BMW, why can’t he afford a computer”?). And of course, IRL the man did not want to cause urges in his clients.

In a way, A&L’s case has been an eye-opener. When a person says, “so what, I don’t do anything bad, I just watch”, everyone has to be aware of a child or adolescent being harmed during the production of CSAM. Sadly, I didn’t even think of how these things were produced, god knows what I thought.

The “sickness” is there. No doubt. There have been discussions about Ted Bundy likely having a psychiatric diagnosis. I do believe that most of these cases are illness to start with. But today, people have a choice. To get help and treatment, or not, or to continue their hedonistic, criminal behaviors.

About the gait, I see it, too, and I can’t unsee it. Baby goats or respirators or whatever he has on his chest is another thing; the video is pixelated, so our brain “finishes” the picture. But raising the hip to make a step is unmistakable. Even if you cut out a piece. On video, I see neuropathic gait. It can’t be because of the planks; avoiding planks would cause a different gait (uneven steps, or so). I am far from Delphi, so it probably doesn’t matter.

P.S. outside of the case, but I think this pattern of picking up future supermodels among girls of 14 or 15 is also not normal, and should change. I am speaking about well-known catalogues, most of the models that we know get there mostly before 18, and it is not right.
 
Last edited:

M. Kay

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 20, 2017
Messages
90
Reaction score
370
Link for LE interviewed: I hadn't heard previously, though I may have missed it discussed.
Some details are addressed directly. Perhaps newer people here would find helpful? Over the years of basics, some may have forgotten. (Like me!) Should I be posting this elsewhere (in media?) and if so, how do we access other links to this case?
 

JnRyan

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 21, 2013
Messages
5,019
Reaction score
21,411
Link for LE interviewed: I hadn't heard previously, though I may have missed it discussed.
Some details are addressed directly. Perhaps newer people here would find helpful? Over the years of basics, some may have forgotten. (Like me!) Should I be posting this elsewhere (in media?) and if so, how do we access other links to this case?
It was heavily discussed when it came out last year. It probably took on more importance because there was no press conference at the 4 year mark. It was the first time I can recall hearing ANYONE from LE firmly admitting that they not only have DNA, but that they were not certain they had the killer's DNA. Sheriff Leazenby had previously stated they had A fingerprint, but he not only says 'fingerprints', plural, but like the DNA they don't know if they belong to the killer. Good idea to repost.
 

Peppery

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 15, 2014
Messages
2,208
Reaction score
17,866
Link for LE interviewed: I hadn't heard previously, though I may have missed it discussed.
Some details are addressed directly. Perhaps newer people here would find helpful? Over the years of basics, some may have forgotten. (Like me!) Should I be posting this elsewhere (in media?) and if so, how do we access other links to this case?
Thanks for reposting!

I forgot how absolutely defeated TL sounded. He says he still has hope of solving this but his tone implies he doesn’t believe it. Moo
 

Spartygirl

Verified Insider - Michael Vanzandt case
Joined
May 3, 2016
Messages
3,947
Reaction score
37,827
Last edited:

mom2chloe

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 16, 2008
Messages
1,917
Reaction score
17,004
Thank you
I have so many saved from the presser that I have already spent 2 hours going thru some of them.

I will keep searching tonight
I googled press conferences but couldn’t see much since cameras were mostly focused on LE. Maybe we could reach out to a local camera person who was there and willing to share pics? I’m happy to scour and search whatever we gain. Just let me know please. Thanks!
 

marisab67

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 17, 2017
Messages
66
Reaction score
644
With these types its not usually a learned behavior however, its usually a sexual issue that's been held at bay for awhile and sometimes, fueled by sexual materials the offender likes , then they come across the victim(s) with no adult presence and they act. they are more like killers in waiting than active predators, (more like a crocodile than a wolf if you will)

Or misplaced anger, that the victim was simply representative of .
We live in a small town in Wisconsin and my 10 year-old isn’t allowed to go anywhere by himself because all the other parents are paranoid too and no kids are out playing unaccompanied by adults. I use the crocodile/baby hippo example all the time with him because he doesn’t get why he isn’t old enough.
 

Kell1

Verified law enforcement
Joined
Apr 7, 2013
Messages
1,177
Reaction score
4,082
We live in a small town in Wisconsin and my 10 year-old isn’t allowed to go anywhere by himself because all the other parents are paranoid too and no kids are out playing unaccompanied by adults. I use the crocodile/baby hippo example all the time with him because he doesn’t get why he isn’t old enough.
There are 2 unbreakable rules, to teach kids,

1) Never go anywhere with anyone, even family without directly asking (not telling) a parent first

2) At all costs....Stay away from vehicles, a vehicle is used in 96% of abductions, once the victim has been moved, their survivability goes down exponentially.

therefore its imperative you drill these with your kids

-Never approach any type of vehicle even if someone tells you they are a police officer and tells you to come near.
 

Charlot123

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2018
Messages
5,526
Reaction score
36,493
Link for LE interviewed: I hadn't heard previously, though I may have missed it discussed.
Some details are addressed directly. Perhaps newer people here would find helpful? Over the years of basics, some may have forgotten. (Like me!) Should I be posting this elsewhere (in media?) and if so, how do we access other links to this case?
Thank you very much. I did not hear the interview. I am a fast reader, so I skip podcasts, but I had to hear TL’s voice. Maybe TL should not blame himself. I imagined both scenarios in my head, two “clouds” of suspects, and thought that in TL’s shoes, I would have probably made the same mistakes, because they are of “to err is human” type.

I don’t know how you interpret TL’s interview, but to me it is obvious that: 1) it is not an outsider - good news for us non-Midwesterners, might stop looking for people with neuropathy among our neighbors…)))

2) that their DNA and fingerprints have an “owner”, but their presence can be 100% explained. Maybe one of these prints/DNA is at the place that is inexplicable, but the person was smart enough to leave others during the search, so all in all, it weakens the case.

And again, I am positive that RL’s DNA and fingerprints were checked, so one might as well drop him off that list. MOO.

3) that the person is neither a criminal, nor local famed methhead; it is someone whose presence at the crime scene or near the girls is also explained (either part of the search party, or someone close to the girls, or both). JBC is also firmly scratched off, so is KAK. JMO.

The only other situation when a person was not present in the search party but is a killer is if his relative was present, and there is “transfer DNA”. But the chance is slim.
4) that maybe, that “eureka!” happened much later. Someone decided to check fingerprints left on a table glass, or so. Just out of sheer joke, “oh, btw, have we checked so-and-so?” And to their horror, found out that they matched. It is just my idea. That situation was random.
 

carbuff

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 30, 2009
Messages
28,503
Reaction score
60,695
Website
www.colealicem.com
Thank you very much. I did not hear the interview. I am a fast reader, so I skip podcasts, but I had to hear TL’s voice. Maybe TL should not blame himself. I imagined both scenarios in my head, two “clouds” of suspects, and thought that in TL’s shoes, I would have probably made the same mistakes, because they are of “to err is human” type.

I don’t know how you interpret TL’s interview, but to me it is obvious that: 1) it is not an outsider - good news for us non-Midwesterners, might stop looking for people with neuropathy among our neighbors…)))

2) that their DNA and fingerprints have an “owner”, but their presence can be 100% explained. Maybe one of these prints/DNA is at the place that is inexplicable, but the person was smart enough to leave others during the search, so all in all, it weakens the case.

And again, I am positive that RL’s DNA and fingerprints were checked, so one might as well drop him off that list. MOO.

3) that the person is neither a criminal, nor local famed methhead; it is someone whose presence at the crime scene or near the girls is also explained (either part of the search party, or someone close to the girls, or both). JBC is also firmly scratched off, so is KAK. JMO.

The only other situation when a person was not present in the search party but is a killer is if his relative was present, and there is “transfer DNA”. But the chance is slim.
4) that maybe, that “eureka!” happened much later. Someone decided to check fingerprints left on a table glass, or so. Just out of sheer joke, “oh, btw, have we checked so-and-so?” And to their horror, found out that they matched. It is just my idea. That situation was random.

Everything you say is true, but there's also another possibility: the DNA is on something like a discarded cigarette butt, coffee cup, etc. that could have been left there by anybody at any time in the several days before the murders.

That would most likely let JBC back in because he fished and camped out at many area streams and might let KAK in too if he had visited the bridge area in the recent past.
 

IQuestion

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 12, 2012
Messages
2,037
Reaction score
7,816
Remember the police always saying: "small community, everybody knows everybody", "the killer is hiding in plain sight",
"we know we have talked to you or someone close to you." etc.
Quite simply they have the DNA of the killer....but the killer's DNA is not in CODIS.

A distant relative of his was, police say, and that person’s DNA partially matched evidence related to the serial killer. Instantly, the pool of suspects shrank from millions of people down to a single family.
DNA and phone records do not lie, but killers do.
(Don't bother to read the article, too long, too depressing but figured I still needed to provide a link.)

The ingenious and ‘dystopian’ DNA technique police used to hunt the ‘Golden State Killer’ suspect​

 

marisab67

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 17, 2017
Messages
66
Reaction score
644
There are 2 unbreakable rules, to teach kids,

1) Never go anywhere with anyone, even family without directly asking (not telling) a parent first

2) At all costs....Stay away from vehicles, a vehicle is used in 96% of abductions, once the victim has been moved, their survivability goes down exponentially.

therefore its imperative you drill these with your kids

-Never approach any type of vehicle even if someone tells you they are a police officer and tells you to come near.
I grew up in Los Angeles in the 80s and had zero supervision my husband grew up in this tiny town and we get into it all the time about assuming everyone is a murder pervert and being pleasantly surprised when it turns out to not be true, because of our upbringings!
 

marisab67

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 17, 2017
Messages
66
Reaction score
644
Thanks KELL1, Can always rely on you to give background on possible type of offender. Are you saying it is a pent up resentment (anger towards females, job, relatives, health, break up) as you wrote, "fueled by sexual materials the offender likes?" Even if it was a growing compulsion, wouldn't the offender still use other "instincts/familiar locale/learned behavior/skills" to offend, attack and escape. Afterall, this wasn't a crazed surfer who attacks women on the beach, a co-worker who traps a female employee in the company parking structure, a guy who drugs a woman at a bar etc.
What bothers me the most is the use of words like "sickness" and "problem".... euphemisms to describe unspeakable criminal issues. These guys know it is immoral, they know it is criminal and why (IMO) they work so hard to hide their activities. The offender knows it is wrong and yet still commit the crime..... in my book that is premeditation.
(I still see the step-drag-step drag type of gait as BG approached...even if no one else does. The planks aren't as damaged at either end of the bridge. I wish the pressers had never said he walked that way because the bridge was dilapidated and to look at mannerisms instead. C'mon I didn't say I saw baby goats, too.)
I see the gait. He picks up his whole leg and drops it instead of just walking with his knees.
 

Kell1

Verified law enforcement
Joined
Apr 7, 2013
Messages
1,177
Reaction score
4,082
I grew up in Los Angeles in the 80s and had zero supervision my husband grew up in this tiny town and we get into it all the time about assuming everyone is a murder pervert and being pleasantly surprised when it turns out to not be true, because of our upbringings!
Better to be pleasantly surprised than the opposite.

Though you should be vigilant, some take it to a whole different level..

Being sure is good, but theres no need for paranoia over it, as a matter of fact, being constantly suspicious of everything actually weakens natural intuitive response to danger.

Theres an excellent book on just that I dont know if the WS gods will let me post the name of here
 

wary

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2014
Messages
3,937
Reaction score
25,722
Better to be pleasantly surprised than the opposite.

Though you should be vigilant, some take it to a whole different level..

Being sure is good, but theres no need for paranoia over it, as a matter of fact, being constantly suspicious of everything actually weakens natural intuitive response to danger.

Theres an excellent book on just that I dont know if the WS gods will let me post the name of here

If it’s The Gift of Fear, I don’t think they’ll have any problem with it.
MOO
 

Tealgrove

#Where Is Summer? #Gannon Is My Hero
Joined
May 20, 2013
Messages
3,794
Reaction score
30,416
We now know that the Kline’s were on LE’s Radar due to the recent interview document that was released with KAK.

KAK knew they were on to him and his father for CSAM in the early goings of the Abby/Libby murder investigation. They may not have come at him about the murders until 2020 but he was already in deep for other serious stuff in 2017.

If I’m KAK and know LE is into me for anything, I think I’m staying away from that Press Conference.

MOO
 

Arkay

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 20, 2019
Messages
1,102
Reaction score
16,725
I grew up in Los Angeles in the 80s and had zero supervision my husband grew up in this tiny town and we get into it all the time about assuming everyone is a murder pervert and being pleasantly surprised when it turns out to not be true, because of our upbringings!
It's interesting to me that you had zero supervision in the 80s. Maybe because you're in L.A. and I'm in NYC.

I grew up in Manhattan in the 60s with a lot of freedom, but I have a twin so we never were outside alone. The only parental rule was "don't go into the elevator if there's a man alone, because they commit more crimes." We were about 6 or 7 so we didn't understand what that really meant, but we obeyed.

My daughter grew up in the 80s in NYC but by then the world had changed. Etan Patz went missing in Manhattan in 1979, just walking by himself at age 6, so I never let my daughter out of my sight.

Now I have a 17- year old granddaughter who just moved from NYC to a rural Florida town. I feel just as nervous for her there. Here there are incidents like people shoving people onto subway tracks, but in rural areas I feel more frightened for her to walk alone. There's just nobody around if a bad guy shows up. No cameras like there are everywhere here.

When I think desperately about Libby, Abby, and many others I feel very anxious. They weren't alone, they had each other, they had a cell phone, it was daytime, but it didn't save them.

I had teenaged friends, Mitch and Bonnie, who went missing in 1973 and are still missing (there's a thread for them on WS) but that did not make me paranoid. It seemed like an aberration.

Etan Patz and my becoming a mother two years later, that made me paranoid.

Jmo and experience
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top