Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #146

[Ravenmoon]

Who thinks LE know exactly who did it but can’t charge them yet?

In my opinion they do.

What does everyone else think??

I would agree that LE knows who is responsible.
I think that we will see an arrest within a calendar year.
Betting sometime this Summer.

JMO

 

[Unsolved]

I read this article today about a 20 year old Colorado man being arrested in Nebraska with a 13 year old missing Lafayette, IN teen and for some reason it really surprised me. Not so much about him (bad guys are everywhere), but Lafayette is only about a 23 minute drive from Delphi and I would have thought that the kids in the area would be pretty cautious about leaving with someone. I guess I must be projecting my scaredy cat feelings on "superhuman" teens (who seem to think that "nothing bad will happen to me") though...

Colorado man arrested in Nebraska after being found with missing 13-year-old

A 20-year-old Colorado man was arrested in Nebraska earlier this week after he was found with a missing teenager from Indiana, according to the Nebraska State Patrol.

denvergazette.com

 

[Peppery]

Thank you very much. I did not hear the interview. I am a fast reader, so I skip podcasts, but I had to hear TL’s voice. Maybe TL should not blame himself. I imagined both scenarios in my head, two “clouds” of suspects, and thought that in TL’s shoes, I would have probably made the same mistakes, because they are of “to err is human” type.

I don’t know how you interpret TL’s interview, but to me it is obvious that: 1) it is not an outsider - good news for us non-Midwesterners, might stop looking for people with neuropathy among our neighbors…)))

2) that their DNA and fingerprints have an “owner”, but their presence can be 100% explained. Maybe one of these prints/DNA is at the place that is inexplicable, but the person was smart enough to leave others during the search, so all in all, it weakens the case.

And again, I am positive that RL’s DNA and fingerprints were checked, so one might as well drop him off that list. MOO.

3) that the person is neither a criminal, nor local famed methhead; it is someone whose presence at the crime scene or near the girls is also explained (either part of the search party, or someone close to the girls, or both). JBC is also firmly scratched off, so is KAK. JMO.

The only other situation when a person was not present in the search party but is a killer is if his relative was present, and there is “transfer DNA”. But the chance is slim.
4) that maybe, that “eureka!” happened much later. Someone decided to check fingerprints left on a table glass, or so. Just out of sheer joke, “oh, btw, have we checked so-and-so?” And to their horror, found out that they matched. It is just my idea. That situation was random.

So let’s think about this fingerprint (s).

I think it would be safe to say LE hasn’t been able to match fingerprints to anyone. And that they suspect they belong to BG.

Sooo, where could they have gotten one fingerprint, much less multiple? I can think of very few possibilities.
1. In blood on their skin. I am unsure if a useable fingerprint could be lifted from fabric. Blood could explain the lack of a definitive print, it does degrade with time and it was approximately 20-21 hours from probable attack to discovery and there was likely frost or dew that would have altered it.

2. Some other solid or semi-solid surface. Possibilities are Libby’s phone or the rubber on their shoes. Did they have any hair ties or clips? Glasses/sunglasses? Maybe a note or paper in a pocket? A trinket intended for a_s? I think the most likely place is her phone or something we don’t know about yet that they took with them. But why would BG touch it?

3. Maybe not the murder weapon but something else they are thinking BG touched. A stick? A different tool/weapon? Maybe he left something? Cigarette butt, food wrapper, drink bottle

Let’s brainstorm fingerprint info!

 

[Peppery]

Who thinks LE know exactly who did it but can’t charge them yet?

In my opinion they do.

What does everyone else think??

I think LE is about 75% sure. Still way too far from an arrest. I don’t think it will be solved for a long time, 10+ years, and it will end up being due to someone who highly suspects someone finally coming forward. It Will take time for that person to not be afraid of BG or rely on him for something. I think there’s a few people who know in their heart of hearts who he probably is.

 

[carbuff]

I sometimes think ISP and the Delphi LE think they know who did it--and they each think it was a different person.

 

[Spartygirl]

I googled press conferences but couldn’t see much since cameras were mostly focused on LE. Maybe we could reach out to a local camera person who was there and willing to share pics? I’m happy to scour and search whatever we gain. Just let me know please. Thanks!

I do have a ton of them saved but I did not save the resources so cant post them here as I no longer have the links, just the photos.

 

[Charlot123]

So let’s think about this fingerprint (s).

Sooo, where could they have gotten one fingerprint, much less multiple? I can think of very few possibilities.
1. In blood on their skin. I am unsure if a useable fingerprint could be lifted from fabric. Blood could explain the lack of a definitive print, it does degrade with time and it was approximately 20-21 hours from probable attack to discovery and there was likely frost or dew that would have altered it.

2. Some other solid or semi-solid surface. Possibilities are Libby’s phone or the rubber on their shoes. Did they have any hair ties or clips? Glasses/sunglasses? Maybe a note or paper in a pocket? A trinket intended for a_s? I think the most likely place is her phone or something we don’t know about yet that they took with them. But why would BG touch it?

3. Maybe not the murder weapon but something else they are thinking BG touched. A stick? A different tool/weapon? Maybe he left something? Cigarette butt, food wrapper, drink bottle

Let’s brainstorm fingerprint info!

Sorry, i messed up your citation. The beginning of the post should be in yellow area.

Answer: I think LE have fingerprints of several different people lifted from the CS. I don’t think they all belong to the same person, and here is why.

Imagine it is a CS, girls’ bodies, and one fingerprint is at the place where it shouldn’t be - and it doesn’t match anyone from the girls’ families, friends, anyone they’d know, but it is there. I think it is on the girl. And partial.

And, other fingerprints around.

Case 1: all fingerprints belong to the same person. The person says, “ yeah, it is old Ron’s property, i used to hang around there all the time, I was there on Feb 12. What, on Feb 13? No way, everyone saw me (elsewhere).”
(Go prove. No one was testing the area for fingerprints on Feb 12.)

Then LE says, OK, you were not there on February 13, how come there is your fingerprint on (one of the girls)? They were not at the CS on Feb 12?

Bingo. This is when the person is caught.

Case 2: there is one (partial, as TL said) print where it shouldn’t be - on one of the girls.

And lots of prints around it, belonging to other/different people.

In my mind, it is worse. Because, supposedly they found owners of multiple prints. I bet one of them is in Codis. But now all these people say, oh yes, we were there on February 12.

And the one who is tied up to one of the girls, whose fingerprint is on one of them, darn, had left only a partial! A partial won’t stand in court.

Now, if LE could also lift DNA from that fingerprint without destroying it… but the technique became available in 2018.

We’ve discovered a way to recover DNA from fingerprints without destroying them

Lifting fingermarks from a crime scene often destroys the DNA they can contain.

theconversation.com

Hence, I think the print was not a bloodied one, otherwise, LE could have photographed it. And then processed for DNA. I think it was a vague, sweaty partial. Obtained in 2017, and the method to obtain DNA from fingerprints and leave them undamaged was described only in 2018.

 

[IQuestion]

So let’s think about this fingerprint (s).

I think it would be safe to say LE hasn’t been able to match fingerprints to anyone. And that they suspect they belong to BG.

Sooo, where could they have gotten one fingerprint, much less multiple? I can think of very few possibilities.
1. In blood on their skin. I am unsure if a useable fingerprint could be lifted from fabric. Blood could explain the lack of a definitive print, it does degrade with time and it was approximately 20-21 hours from probable attack to discovery and there was likely frost or dew that would have altered it.

2. Some other solid or semi-solid surface. Possibilities are Libby’s phone or the rubber on their shoes. Did they have any hair ties or clips? Glasses/sunglasses? Maybe a note or paper in a pocket? A trinket intended for a_s? I think the most likely place is her phone or something we don’t know about yet that they took with them. But why would BG touch it?

3. Maybe not the murder weapon but something else they are thinking BG touched. A stick? A different tool/weapon? Maybe he left something? Cigarette butt, food wrapper, drink bottle

Let’s brainstorm fingerprint info!

I'm thinking a piece of tape or other type of restraint. Something to try at home tonight: Tear off a piece of tape from a roll and I bet your thumb or index finger will come in contact with the sticky side. (If you don't believe me gentlemen, borrow some red lipstick from your significant other and rub it on your index finger and thumb...now tear a piece of duct tape....voila!)

 

[Ravenmoon]

I'm thinking a piece of tape or other type of restraint. Something to try at home tonight: Tear off a piece of tape from a roll and I bet your thumb or index finger will come in contact with the sticky side. (If you don't believe me gentlemen, borrow some red lipstick from your significant other and rub it on your index finger and thumb...now tear a piece of duct tape....voila!)

That is an excellent theory.
Fingerprints can be recovered on fabrics as well.
This can be silk, nylon and polyester. I don't know what material AW was wearing as far as her shirt..
I wonder if he carried AW at some point and left a fingerprint there on her clothing?
Maybe there was a print on the bench that belongs to one of the K's?
Maybe a print was left on an object in the creek...fingerprints can stay on an object for 15 days.

MOO

 

[MistyWaters]

What TL said was “suggestive“ evidence of fingerprint but does that mean a fingerprint that can eventually be indisputably matched, I’m not so sure especially if it’s blurred. As time continues to pass I don’t think this is a case that’s easily solved by DNA or fingerprints alone.

“Leazenby advised there is DNA from the crime scene but refused to divulge from where it originated. He said there is “suggestive” evidence of fingerprints found at the crime scene.

“This is not simple,” the Sheriff said. “This is not television. DNA can come from all sorts of places and fingerprints can be smudged and hard to identify.”…”

Lots of tips, no arrest in 2017 double homicide - Carroll County Comet

Carroll County Sheriff Tobe Leazenby told the Comet Monday roughly 40,000 tips have been received in the investigation into the homicides of Abigail Williams and Liberty German on Feb. 13, 2017. Leazenby reported that roughly 9,000 tips were received in 2019 and approxim ately 3 , 0 0 0 have...

www.carrollcountycomet.com

 

[FromGermany1]

3. Maybe not the murder weapon but something else they are thinking BG touched. A stick? A different tool/weapon? Maybe he left something? Cigarette butt, food wrapper, drink bottle

Let’s brainstorm fingerprint info!

Fitbit of one of the girls (if present)
wristwatch of one of the girls (if)
bracelet of one of the girls (if)
necklace of one of the girls (if)
earring of one of the girls (if)
paper handkerchief of one of the girls, packing of it (if)
shoe of one of the girls
rubber for ponytail (Abby)

lighter of the perp (if smoker)
...........

 

[ShamelessObserver]

Those who, like me, think LE know who did it:

What’s stopping them making an arrest do we think?

For me it’s because someone is lying for them, giving them an alibi

What do others think?

 

[IQuestion]

Just speaking on the appearance aspect of it, its not at all uncommon for an offender to change their appearance either intentionally or unintentionally post offense

They gain weight, they lose weight, they alter their appearance, they cut their hair, they grow facial hair,they shave, they color their hair etc..

Some even change they way they dress.

Once, had a guy who dropped 40 lbs in 2 months just due to the stress of being a suspect, and increased, drug use.

So I wouldn't hang too much what he looked like then as opposed to now.

Hi Kell1 (sorry to drag your post #911 up to this place now) But of course one can not help but notice the incredible weight gain of KAK. I wonder what kind of medical attention or intervention occurs in a jail when an inmate decides they want to starve them self and creates a serious health crisis due to weight loss juxtaposed to an inmate who gains a huge amount of weight also causing self-harm. there are very few notches left on the restraint adjustments. Even pointing out that his wrists are so large, they may have to use ankle cuffs on his large wrists. Page 4 of the video taped statement, Aug. 19, 2020.
10 Q: Stand up. (inaudible) (Officer removes restraints) They ain't too many pl- too
11 many little notches left on the handcuffs (inaudible).
12 A: Yeah.
13 Q: You about need ankle handcuffs-
14 A: Right.
15 Q: -for your wrists.
16 A: I need a diet.
And lastly, did KAK ever give a reason for why he moved out of his father's house after Feb. 25, 2017? Or why he wanted to do it while his father was asleep?

 

[FromGermany1]

Hi Kell1 (sorry to drag your post #911 up to this place now) But of course one can not help but notice the incredible weight gain of KAK. I wonder what kind of medical attention or intervention occurs in a jail when an inmate decides they want to starve them self and creates a serious health crisis due to weight loss juxtaposed to an inmate who gains a huge amount of weight also causing self-harm. there are very few notches left on the restraint adjustments. Even pointing out that his wrists are so large, they may have to use ankle cuffs on his large wrists. Page 4 of the video taped statement, Aug. 19, 2020.

10 Q: Stand up. (inaudible) (Officer removes restraints) They ain't too many pl- too
11 many little notches left on the handcuffs (inaudible).
12 A: Yeah.
13 Q: You about need ankle handcuffs-
14 A: Right.
15 Q: -for your wrists.
16 A: I need a diet.
And lastly, did KAK ever give a reason for why he moved out of his father's house after Feb. 25, 2017? Or why he wanted to do it while his father was asleep?

Your last question I want to be answered also!

 

[Kell1]

Hi Kell1 (sorry to drag your post #911 up to this place now) But of course one can not help but notice the incredible weight gain of KAK. I wonder what kind of medical attention or intervention occurs in a jail when an inmate decides they want to starve them self and creates a serious health crisis due to weight loss juxtaposed to an inmate who gains a huge amount of weight also causing self-harm. there are very few notches left on the restraint adjustments. Even pointing out that his wrists are so large, they may have to use ankle cuffs on his large wrists. Page 4 of the video taped statement, Aug. 19, 2020.
10 Q: Stand up. (inaudible) (Officer removes restraints) They ain't too many pl- too
11 many little notches left on the handcuffs (inaudible).
12 A: Yeah.
13 Q: You about need ankle handcuffs-
14 A: Right.
15 Q: -for your wrists.
16 A: I need a diet.
And lastly, did KAK ever give a reason for why he moved out of his father's house after Feb. 25, 2017? Or why he wanted to do it while his father was asleep?

Using shackles as handcuffs isnt all that uncommon, I had to do it often actually some guys just have bigger wrists than the diameter of standard handcuffs . I always kept a few sets in my gear bag .

Ive seen extremes in terms of weight gain and loss, as you can imagine getting away with murder is stressful, they may eat more or stop eating for days, especially if theyre using drugs.

Some guys will do it intentionally to alter their appearance, others just either eat a lot less, or eat their stress.

I cant answer the last question, i havent heard why he moved out of the house ..... But I have a feeling i know why ..obviously.

Remember, these types move A LOT to begin with, add in there something like a murder ....you can usually set your watch by it .

 

[marisab67]

It's interesting to me that you had zero supervision in the 80s. Maybe because you're in L.A. and I'm in NYC.

I grew up in Manhattan in the 60s with a lot of freedom, but I have a twin so we never were outside alone. The only parental rule was "don't go into the elevator if there's a man alone, because they commit more crimes." We were about 6 or 7 so we didn't understand what that really meant, but we obeyed.

My daughter grew up in the 80s in NYC but by then the world had changed. Etan Patz went missing in Manhattan in 1979, just walking by himself at age 6, so I never let my daughter out of my sight.

Now I have a 17- year old granddaughter who just moved from NYC to a rural Florida town. I feel just as nervous for her there. Here there are incidents like people shoving people onto subway tracks, but in rural areas I feel more frightened for her to walk alone. There's just nobody around if a bad guy shows up. No cameras like there are everywhere here.

When I think desperately about Libby, Abby, and many others I feel very anxious. They weren't alone, they had each other, they had a cell phone, it was daytime, but it didn't save them.

I had teenaged friends, Mitch and Bonnie, who went missing in 1973 and are still missing (there's a thread for them on WS) but that did not make me paranoid. It seemed like an aberration.

Etan Patz and my becoming a mother two years later, that made me paranoid.

Jmo and experience

My mom was bedridden and my parents were divorced so I had to get myself everywhere on my bike or bus. Very different from what my friends experienced. All my mom could do was warn me.

 

[Megnut]

Those who, like me, think LE know who did it:

What’s stopping them making an arrest do we think?

For me it’s because someone is lying for them, giving them an alibi

What do others think?

Could be a false alibi.

Could also be a close family connection setting up a strong SODDI case. It isn't just about arresting a murderer; it's about convicting him.

Regardless of the reason, I hope there's an arrest or arrests soon followed by solid conviction.

JMO

 

[Kittybunny]

Who thinks LE know exactly who did it but can’t charge them yet?

In my opinion they do.

What does everyone else think??

Definitely not me. I'm in the "highly skeptical that any of the known POIs are responsible" camp. But I'm severely lacking in confidence in this investigation and have been since early on.

I hope I'm wrong and would be overjoyed if there was an arrest in 2022.

 

[sunshineray]

Continuing my thoughts. KK was taken to the police station for a polygraph. I now, also believe someone put that cell phone on the microwave while KK was taking his polygraph at the police station. Someone close enough to KK to know that he probably spends a lot of time in the kitchen and using the microwave. Even the detective believes that is the one truthful thing KK had said. All of KK's phones, tablet and internet devices were taken by the police, so KK had asked to use his Dad's phone or asked his Dad to call in the information. (Right) But, the phone was not picked up for 2 days...maybe his Dad did not make the call as promised and instead delayed until the info was wiped clean??
Could it be? Can it be? Would a relative take advantage of a ne'er do well pot head's cell phone access? Even at that, how would the relative know what phone to hide from police? I guess they would know if they had been logging into the phone, too. Man-o-man, double wow's and I don't like where this is headed... don't know if I can go down that rabbit hole just yet. I think I'll just sit on the ground and let someone else with a bigger flashlight go down that one.

Didn't KAK tell that woman interviewer who talked to him in prison that LE think his Dad, JAK, killed the girls? He would be my guess as the likely person who pocketed that iPhone before the search and then gave it to his son to wipe when he got back from being polygraphed. There were two people living in that house (I don't believe KAK's statements that his friends were able to just flop at the house whenever) but the warrant, I don't think, would have included searching JAK's person because anthony_shots account was traced back to just KAK himself, at that time?
AJMO

 

[sandy_80]

paul holes is in delphi
possibly doing some show/podcast