Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #146

[Tricia]

Welcome back to the Delphi Murders discussion thread.

On the afternoon of Feb. 13th, 2017, best friends Abigail Williams and Liberty German were dropped off at a bridge in the town of Delphi. On Feb 14th their bodies were discovered around noon about 50 feet from the north bank of Deer Creek which is about 0.5 miles from the bridge.
The Sheriff's office gave a press conference on 4/22/19 and we have some solid information. Please take a look below

HERE IS THE NEW SKETCH FROM THE PRESS CONFERENCE ON 4/22/19

HERE IS THE NEW AUDIO. IT'S-A BIT LONGER THAN THE FIRST AUDIO:
https://www.in.gov/isp/files/Delphi_Audio_Edited_2019x3.wav

Here is the old audio in a loop:
http://www.in.gov/isp/files/Delphi_male_voice_loop.mp3

LATEST PRESS CONFERENCE 4/22/19

FOR MORE CLICK HERE FOR THE CARROL COUNTY SHERIFF'S OFFICE FACEBOOK PAGE.

Anyone with information about this case, no matter how insignificant, is encouraged to call the Delphi Homicide Investigation Tip Line at (844) 459-5786.

Information can also be reported by calling the Indiana State Police at(800) 382-7537, or the Carroll County Sheriff's Department at (765) 564-2413.

Information can also be emailed to Abbyandlibbytip@cacoshrf.com

video of press conference from 2017 02/22/17: https://www.facebook.com/NewsCenter1...4728963476130/

Let's do this. Let's commit to getting this killer's picture and voice out there any possible way we can.

Pictures of Abby and Libby

Link to post with all Threads #1-98 (Courtesy of margarita25)

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Rules Etiquette & Information

Case map by skibaboo updated with grayhuze crime flow video

Grayhuze youtube channel
Murder sheet YouTube

Verified Insiders: None in this case at this time. Verified Professional, Member michael.gartley, is a Verified Expert in Imaging Science.

RULES OF THIS DISCUSSION
DO NOT post photos of random individuals (including persons featured in MSM articles about other area crimes) to compare to the images of unidentified suspect on the bridge.

PLEASE DO NOT POST PICTURES OF SEX OFFENDERS!

Do not sleuth family, PERIOD. This includes previous public records which have nothing to do with this case. They are victims here. Plain and simple.

If you feel you have a tip, by all means, phone it in. Do NOT discuss your tip here. Contact the authorities and give them time to follow your lead.

NOTE - per Tricia and Sillybilly’s 5.28.2021 post here, JBC as a poi is now open for discussion in the Delphi thread.

 

[Sillybilly]

ADMIN NOTE:

Theorizing based on some known fact sourced from MSM or LE is fine, but speculation not based on known fact is not allowed.

Also, a few reminders from TOS:

It is WS preferred policy to use initials only for anyone other than victims or perps.

If you have questions about rules or moderation, please do not ask them on the thread. Just private message a Mod or Admin for clarification.

Rumors are not allowed. If you can't link information to Websleuths approved sources, do NOT post it with "I read it somewhere" or "I'll find the link later ...".

Before you post something make sure what you are stating is FACT as we know it from MSM, LE or another approved Websleuths source.

Sleuthing or discussing RSOs just because they are on the registry is not allowed. A thread specific exception may be made by Tricia or an Admin depending on geographical location in relation a crime.

Photo alterations or side-by-side comparisons are not allowed.

 

[Tiff23fr]

Mod Note:
For general JBC II discussions please use his thread. In Abby & Libby’s thread, JBC II should only be discussed in the context of a possible connection to Abby & Libby’s case.
Thanks Everyone!

JBC II Thread:
IN - James Chadwell II, 42, arrested after girl 9, found in his home, Lafayette, 19 Apr 2021 #3

Added 12/12/21
For general discussion on KAK’s current case please use his thread.
IN, Peru - Kegan Anthony Kline, 27, arrested Aug 29, 2020, 30 Counts associated with CSAM

 

[Tiff23fr]

Welcome to Thread #146

Please continue here….

 

[sandy_80]

can we agree that the inclusion of ( no struggle ) makes no sense ?
unless
its to imply they don't have dna under their nails and so on.. so they wouldn't be obliged to compare what dna with they have with RL and thus not being granted a search warrant ?
so the reliability/reasoning of this statement is questionable

 

[helpfulcharlie]

can we agree that the inclusion of ( no struggle ) makes no sense ?
unless
its to imply they don't have dna under their nails and so on.. so they wouldn't be obliged to compare what dna with they have with RL and thus not being granted a search warrant ?
so the reliability/reasoning of this statement is questionable

In my opinion it is one investigator's opinion, a snapshot in time at the time the warrant was requested. I wouldn't consider it authoritative at all. It's more information than we had before the warrant became public, by by no means should it be considered the final truth of the matter.

 

[Peppery]

Most of what we know doesn’t make sense to me. With the video and audio, tight timeline and out in the open scene, I truly thought this would be solved within a few weeks. It’s way more complex than I originally thought.

 

[Boxer]

can we agree that the inclusion of ( no struggle ) makes no sense ?
unless
its to imply they don't have dna under their nails and so on.. so they wouldn't be obliged to compare what dna with they have with RL and thus not being granted a search warrant ?
so the reliability/reasoning of this statement is questionable

Agree. And at the time, hair with no root could not be used for DNA match.

 

[TL4S]

LE praises L for having the presence of mind to start the camera on her phone as BG approached. It seems from what they've said, that they do think it was a purposeful move on L's part, because the man made them uneasy. It was heroic, and I agree.

But IMO, as 13 and 14 year old victims, it places an unnecessary burden on them to assume they would have acted in a certain way. For years I've seen it mentioned that they would have screamed, fled, left clues, stayed together voluntarily, fought like hell, etc. Now we get indications that maybe they did not do all those things, but that should not make us doubt the evidence. These two young girls were under the control of at least one adult man with a weapon, intending to harm them. It's been said they were killed "within minutes" of L's video.

We just don't know the way this crime unfolded between the end of the bridge and the location they were found.

 

[Trebor5591]

can we agree that the inclusion of ( no struggle ) makes no sense ?
unless
its to imply they don't have dna under their nails and so on.. so they wouldn't be obliged to compare what dna with they have with RL and thus not being granted a search warrant ?
so the reliability/reasoning of this statement is questionable

In my opinion, if the search warrant for RLs home and property, written by an FBI agent, says there was no sign of a struggle evident, then I believe her. To me, it makes perfect sense that 13 and 14 year old girls would be so terrified and so intimidated by the adult man who had kidnapped them, that they were petrified into inaction.

Regarding the DNA evidence spoken of in earlier posts, I don't think LE has the DNA of the murderer. If they did, he would have been arrested by now. It's been 7 years.

In my opinion, this case will never be solved. I hope I am mistaken.

My opinion only.

 

[Justice101]

Does anyone know if the investigative task force that set up new shop, still in full operation?

 

[MichMan015]

JMO- Comments from investigators describing the crime scene as pristine and lack of struggle suggest to me the perp had some means to control them and suggests perhaps overwhelming h force. This suggests towards two perps. Even with the addition of a firearm it would be difficult to control both of them. Two perps certainly could have.

 

[m00c0w]

A lot of folks are putting too much emphasis on a strict reading of the affidavit, IMO. The entire purpose of the affidavit is to secure a warrant to search RL’s property, and they are only going to include a narrative that supports obtaining the warrant. The affidavit contains information that the agent simply believes is true to the best of their knowledge. Indicating there were no visible signs of a struggle only means there were no visible signs of a struggle, not that one didn’t happen and the evidence at the scene was obfuscated. Really, the affidavit doesn’t talk about the scene itself much. When referring to signs of fight/struggle, she is only referring to the girls.

She also would not have had to prove a lack of DNA for comparison - getting DNA from RL would have required a search warrant all on its own (unless he consented, of course). A warrant only requires probable cause to believe that there is evidence of a crime at that location. I believe the excerpt about no fight/struggle was simply to help show that there was no further evidence that could be gained from the crime scene itself, one element of showing it was necessary to expand the search to other locations.

MOO

 

[susiQ]

@Barbieshell Thread closed and couldn’t quote your post

I agree that if there were two perps working together it would be possible to zip tie their hands to prevent a struggle. If only one perp, I’m inclined to say it was unlikely, but that’s just moo. I have not ruled out that their were two perps or that RL may have suspected who did it. As another member posted, maybe he feared them more than a bit of jail time for his probation violation. His attempt at securing an alibi may have had more to do with clearing himself of possible involvement with the missing girls as well as dodging an arrest for a violation of his parole by driving with a suspended licence. All MOO.

 

[zatanna]

LE praises L for having the presence of mind to start the camera on her phone as BG approached. It seems from what they've said, that they do think it was a purposeful move on L's part, because the man made them uneasy. It was heroic, and I agree.

But IMO, as 13 and 14 year old victims, it places an unnecessary burden on them to assume they would have acted in a certain way. For years I've seen it mentioned that they would have screamed, fled, left clues, stayed together voluntarily, fought like hell, etc. Now we get indications that maybe they did not do all those things, but that should not make us doubt the evidence. These two young girls were under the control of at least one adult man with a weapon, intending to harm them. It's been said they were killed "within minutes" of L's video.

We just don't know the way this crime unfolded between the end of the bridge and the location they were found.

Thank you for this, well said. WS is filled with cases where multiple victims of all sorts of ages, sex, fitness level, etc have been restrained or other wise harmed by a single perpetrator.

 

[photographer4]

I was up late thinking about this last night, and I can agree, a gun would have been more than enough to make the girls comply very quickly. And another thing that I realized is this - the girls may not have been bleeding whilst still alive. It is possible that they lost a lot of blood post mortem. We don't actually know what the cause of death was. It could still have been anything, strangulation, drowning, injection, gun shot wound, blunt force trauma, knife or blade wounds... we have no idea. Its impossible for us to know what we'd have done, or what the girls might have done because we have so little information.

 

[IceIce9]

In my opinion, if the search warrant for RLs home and property, written by an FBI agent, says there was no sign of a struggle evident, then I believe her. To me, it makes perfect sense that 13 and 14 year old girls would be so terrified and so intimidated by the adult man who had kidnapped them, that they were petrified into inaction.

Regarding the DNA evidence spoken of in earlier posts, I don't think LE has the DNA of the murderer. If they did, he would have been arrested by now. It's been 7 years.

In my opinion, this case will never be solved. I hope I am mistaken.

My opinion only.

After seeing the FBI agent wrote there was no sign of a struggle I believe it. For all these years we have run with the scenario that Libby “fought like hell.” But we never heard from investigators that she “fought like hell.”

The phrase originated with the comment from her grandfather on her mother’s side of the family. Then it got repeated and passed on like a game of telephone. But if investigators have stated that Libby “fought like hell” I haven’t seen it.


JMO

Grandfather of one of murdered Indiana teens: I know she fought killer

Dennis Bridge, 59, lost granddaughter Liberty German 14, when she and friend Abigail Williams were murdered on a hike outside Delphi, Indiana. He tells DailyMail.com she would have 'put up a fight'.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[AC4RD]

can we agree that the inclusion of ( no struggle ) makes no sense ?

Just my own opinion, Sandy, but maybe we are over-analyzing that. I think maybe "no visible signs of struggle" doesn't mean "no struggle." I think it probably just means there were no overt signs visible to the investigators. The autopsies may have shown other signs, not visible to the naked eye, and it may be that those weren't mentioned in the warrant because LE didn't want too much information out in the public eye. Maybe that's wrong, too; just my guess.

But "no signs of struggle" doesn't automatically mean "no struggle," IMO. When a barn burns down, there may be no signs of arson at the initial investigation but that doesn't mean there was no arson--just that they didn't see signs of it. And further investigations would be undertaken if there are suspicions. Is that logical or am I misreading it?

 

[photographer4]

A lot of folks are putting too much emphasis on a strict reading of the affidavit, IMO. The entire purpose of the affidavit is to secure a warrant to search RL’s property, and they are only going to include a narrative that supports obtaining the warrant. The affidavit contains information that the agent simply believes is true to the best of their knowledge. Indicating there were no visible signs of a struggle only means there were no visible signs of a struggle, not that one didn’t happen and the evidence at the scene was obfuscated. Really, the affidavit doesn’t talk about the scene itself much. When referring to signs of fight/struggle, she is only referring to the girls.

She also would not have had to prove a lack of DNA for comparison - getting DNA from RL would have required a search warrant all on its own (unless he consented, of course). A warrant only requires probable cause to believe that there is evidence of a crime at that location. I believe the excerpt about no fight/struggle was simply to help show that there was no further evidence that could be gained from the crime scene itself, one element of showing it was necessary to expand the search to other locations.

MOO

I agree with you on this. I've had to obtain warrants before, and when you're writing the affidavit in support of the warrant, you're not writing anything that would give the judge a reason not to issue it. You're only going to write things that support the reasons why you want it. When I was before the judge, asking for a warrant, it was not uncommon to be asked questions which were were noted, along with the verbal responses. It was also not uncommon to be denied a warrant for lack of supporting information, or to be told to go back and find more evidence then return again. I'd love to know if they got this warrant on the first try, or if they were sent back? I'd also like to know what they omitted from it in order to get it (if anything).

 

[TL4S]

I was up late thinking about this last night, and I can agree, a gun would have been more than enough to make the girls comply very quickly. And another thing that I realized is this - the girls may not have been bleeding whilst still alive. It is possible that they lost a lot of blood post mortem. We don't actually know what the cause of death was. It could still have been anything, strangulation, drowning, injection, gun shot wound, blunt force trauma, knife or blade wounds... we have no idea. Its impossible for us to know what we'd have done, or what the girls might have done because we have so little information.

This is just my take on things, but to me there are three things listed in that affidavit that point away from certain CODs, like strangulation, drowning, injection, etc.: 1) There was significant blood loss, 2) no visible signs of the girls fighting back, and 3) the nature of the injuries were such that the killer likely had blood on him.

So, my interpretation would be that the girls had no actively bleeding defense wounds, so the only way the killer would have gotten their blood on him, even if moving them post-mortem, would be for their injuries to be such that they were actively bleeding significant amounts, which wouldn't match up with the above listed CODs. JMO.