Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #146

[Harlow]

Animal hair contains DNA just the same as human DNA. If there was a root present, the girls’ pets could be excluded as contributors based on a DNA test.

No root, then a side by side comparison could determine if the hair came from the same animal. This examination could also exclude family pets.

Spot on. I’m not sure if anyone has brought it up yet, but among other things, dog hair DNA came into play in the Morgan Harrington case - they were able to match a single dog hair found on Morgan’s t-shirt to the dog of her killer Jesse Matthew.

 

[shonyakay]

My post got deleted earlier because I didn't post the link with it. I have now supplied the link.



On a "Gary Hughes Investigates" video on YouTube that starts at 47:58, Gary gives details of what is supposedly the contents of some of LG's video. He claims to have got this information from someone who knows Abby's mother, Anna.



Here is the gist of what he claims...

The gray material that you see a flash of in the BG video is Abby's sweater.

Abby is looking down and then looks up at Libby and asks her, "He's right behind me, isn't he?"

Then Abby hurries to the other end. The girls are discussing which way to go.

They obviously don't know him. Something about two ways. It's very hard to hear.

Then Abby asks, "Is that a gun? He's got a gun!"

He says, "Hey?"

Libby says, "Hmmm?"

He says, "Down the Hill."

The sound of a gun clicks.

The police pointed out to her the sound that they say is a gun clicking.

The perp was seen but no one can draw a picture that's better than what is available.

There are witnesses placing him there. He didn't bother them and they were alone.

Police think this man specifically targeted the girls.

No gunshots were anywhere on the girls.



My note: In regards to the audio released by police the guy clearly says "Guys" at some point but this word is not mentioned.

 

[Peppery]

Spot on. I’m not sure if anyone has brought it up yet, but among other things, dog hair DNA came into play in the Morgan Harrington case - they were able to match a single dog hair found on Morgan’s t-shirt to the dog of her killer Jesse Matthew.

I suppose we dont know if RL or the K's have pets?

 

[Peppery]

My post got deleted earlier because I didn't post the link with it. I have now supplied the link.



On a "Gary Hughes Investigates" video on YouTube that starts at 47:58, Gary gives details of what is supposedly the contents of some of LG's video. He claims to have got this information from someone who knows Abby's mother, Anna.



Here is the gist of what he claims...

The gray material that you see a flash of in the BG video is Abby's sweater.

Abby is looking down and then looks up at Libby and asks her, "He's right behind me, isn't he?"

Then Abby hurries to the other end. The girls are discussing which way to go.

They obviously don't know him. Something about two ways. It's very hard to hear.

Then Abby asks, "Is that a gun? He's got a gun!"

He says, "Hey?"

Libby says, "Hmmm?"

He says, "Down the Hill."

The sound of a gun clicks.

The police pointed out to her the sound that they say is a gun clicking.

The perp was seen but no one can draw a picture that's better than what is available.

There are witnesses placing him there. He didn't bother them and they were alone.

Police think this man specifically targeted the girls.

No gunshots were anywhere on the girls.



My note: In regards to the audio released by police the guy clearly says "Guys" at some point but this word is not mentioned.

I know Gray is an approved source, but it's hard for me to be completely confident in something he says he heard from someone who says they heard something from Anna who supposedly heard it from LE. It's a possible scenario, maybe even a likely scenario, but we just dont know. And again this case is the most frustrating one I've ever followed.

 

[Falling Down]

I know Gray is an approved source, but it's hard for me to be completely confident in something he says he heard from someone who says they heard something from Anna who supposedly heard it from LE. It's a possible scenario, maybe even a likely scenario, but we just dont know. And again this case is the most frustrating one I've ever followed.

Some family members were allowed to listen to the full audio LE have.

Just for reference.

 

[IceIce9]

Some family members were allowed to listen to the full audio LE have.

Just for reference.

I believe it was someone who said he or she was a friend of Anna’s and heard it from Anna. Or did GH actually hear it directly from Anna?

 

[shonyakay]

I believe it was someone who said he or she was a friend of Anna’s and heard it from Anna. Or did GH actually hear it directly from Anna?

Gray Hughes states that this info is from someone who heard it from Anna.

 

[IceIce9]

Gray Hughes states that this info is from someone who heard it from Anna.

I place a higher value on first hand information than second or third hand information, but that is JMO. Others might see it differently. YMMV

 

[Arkay]

Gray Hughes states that this info is from someone who heard it from Anna.

So, according to Gray Hughes, LE delineates for Abby's mother that the click sound is a gun being cocked, yet there were no gunshot wounds on the girls.

Therefore BG had to have another weapon with him, maybe a knife? Or a stun gun to make them compliant? But then, if there was so much blood, they weren't strangled or suffocated. That he had a gun, killed them but NOT with the gun, doesn't make sense to me. I'm not a murderer, though, so I don't know his thought process.

JMO JMO JMO but as a mother and grandmother, if these were my own girls, I would NOT want their last moments to be disseminated for public consumption like this. If Abby's mother truly shared this video with someone, I hope this wasn't against her wishes.

Again, just how I feel as a mom/grandma.

 

[HistoryNut]

I been thinking about the 40 some seconds of audio that the police have not released. Whatever was happening was too horrible to release and/or will eventually help solve this tragic mystery.

 

[shonyakay]

I place a higher value on first hand information than second or third hand information, but that is JMO. Others might see it differently. YMMV

Definitely there is a higher value on first hand information. That's a given but I do know that Gray has been covering this case for a long time and he has talked directly to family members related to the case.

 

[Schatz]

I suppose we dont know if RL or the K's have pets?

JBC did. Just sayin’.

 

[Yemelyan]

Therefore BG had to have another weapon with him, maybe a knife? Or a stun gun to make them compliant? But then, if there was so much blood, they weren't strangled or suffocated. That he had a gun, killed them but NOT with the gun, doesn't make sense to me. I'm not a murderer, though, so I don't know his thought process.

JMO JMO JMO but as a mother and grandmother, if these were my own girls, I would NOT want their last moments to be disseminated for public consumption like this. If Abby's mother truly shared this video with someone, I hope this wasn't against her wishes.

Again, just how I feel as a mom/grandma.

Bolded by me...here's one way to think of it that may help it make sense. You're thinking, if I had to kill someone and there was a gun already in my hand, why wouldn't I just use the gun? But there are some murderers who are asking a different question. For them, it's if I WANTED to kill someone, how would I do it? How they would best control a victim or gain the victim's compliance is way different than the fantasy experience they want to have while they commit the murder itself. This type of murderer is often a sexual sadist, IMO, the act of murder is sexually arousing to them. They tend to strangle their victims or use a knife because they are craving a more personal agency with the victim. They are also more likely to bind their victim. My opinions only.

 

[shonyakay]

In regards to "Down the Hill"?

I hear the perp say, "go down the hill."

The "go" part is audible to me at the 1:00 mark on this video.

 

[shonyakay]

Bolded by me...here's one way to think of it that may help it make sense. You're thinking, if I had to kill someone and there was a gun already in my hand, why wouldn't I just use the gun? But there are some murderers who are asking a different question. For them, it's if I WANTED to kill someone, how would I do it? How they would best control a victim or gain the victim's compliance is way different than the fantasy experience they want to have while they commit the murder itself. This type of murderer is often a sexual sadist, IMO, the act of murder is sexually arousing to them. They tend to strangle their victims or use a knife because they are craving a more personal agency with the victim. They are also more likely to bind their victim. My opinions only.

Also it hasn't been verified that there was only one perp. If there were more than one perp, one could have subdued them with a gun and then led them "down the hill" to another perp who may have had another weapon.

 

[technicallymissing]

So, according to Gray Hughes, LE delineates for Abby's mother that the click sound is a gun being cocked, yet there were no gunshot wounds on the girls.

Therefore BG had to have another weapon with him, maybe a knife? Or a stun gun to make them compliant? But then, if there was so much blood, they weren't strangled or suffocated. That he had a gun, killed them but NOT with the gun, doesn't make sense to me. I'm not a murderer, though, so I don't know his thought process.

JMO JMO JMO but as a mother and grandmother, if these were my own girls, I would NOT want their last moments to be disseminated for public consumption like this. If Abby's mother truly shared this video with someone, I hope this wasn't against her wishes.

Again, just how I feel as a mom/grandma.

It doesn’t strike me as that unlikely to think he brought the gun along for intimidation purposes while still planning on (or at least hoping to be able to execute) a different method for the actual murders given that many predators get gratification from killing in a specific way.

 

[IQuestion]

LE has suggested by there search warrants there maybe pics/video. If the perp or perps took some kind of video or pics there must be evidence of it from Libbeys phone. This would be the only source correct? Is it possible the phone recorded a click? From comments made about the audio it was pretty poor before it was cleaned up. Could it pick this up? Are they looking for just CSAM?
What would make them think this exists?

Sometimes a photo is taken by a hitman as proof, instead of waiting for a newspaper story ? (Oh geez...if I type that really small, then it is just a whisper, okay....) I just have to add in all likelihood a hired or revenge killer would not take undergarments. So just pass on my first thought. If the perp took undergarments, would he take pictures, too? And even more confounding leave a "signature" added to everything else after staging. If all that was accomplished in 20 minutes this is not his first rodeo....IMO

 

[sandy_80]

Bolded by me...here's one way to think of it that may help it make sense. You're thinking, if I had to kill someone and there was a gun already in my hand, why wouldn't I just use the gun? But there are some murderers who are asking a different question. For them, it's if I WANTED to kill someone, how would I do it? How they would best control a victim or gain the victim's compliance is way different than the fantasy experience they want to have while they commit the murder itself. This type of murderer is often a sexual sadist, IMO, the act of murder is sexually arousing to them. They tend to strangle their victims or use a knife because they are craving a more personal agency with the victim. They are also more likely to bind their victim. My opinions only.
.......
quotes copy fail

right..
this is the best way to deflate ( abduction gone wrong ) ( revenge ) ( shutting them up ) ...a knife speaks of a thrill killer ..killing here is intended as a source of satisfaction , meaning he is not some rapist that just wanted to get rid of his victims

 

[stattlich1]

Lets talk guns. If a semi-automatic striker fired pistol was used, there would be no 'click' involved in loading a round in to the chamber. One must 'rack' the slide on a semi-auto, making a distinct sound, a sliding 'schlick, schlick' type sound, not a 'click'. There is no trigger per se on this type of handgun.

Now, if a hammer fired semi-automatic pistol were being used, and it was not 'charged', and there was a live round in the chamber, then one would pull the trigger back to 'charge' the gun, preparing it for firing. I imagine the sound of doing this might be heard on the audio, but IMO it would be unlikely.

A revolver, with the cylinder loaded (or perhaps unloaded if that was the intent), and the hammer down....one would have to pull the trigger back to charge the gun. This type of pistol definitely makes a clicking sound when cocking it.

The whole idea of a 'click' being heard on the tape is hard for me to fathom, with the muffled sound of the voice being what it is.

So, if indeed LE has stated a 'click' is the sound of a gun being 'charged' then it would be either a hammer fired semi-automatic pistol or a revolver, the revolver being my best guess.

Note here, that a rifle or shotgun, in some cases depending on the type of weapon, would need to have the trigger pulled back to charge it for firing. But my thought is that there likely was no long gun used in this crime, and if so, the chances of it being a bolt action or semi-automatic rifle would be greater, and those type long guns for the most part don't involve pulling a trigger back to prepare them for firing. They are 'charged' for firing in different manners, some by the bolt, some by racking as in pump shotguns etc, and some by what's actually called a charging handle.

Lastly, it could be that a click might be heard, though extremely unlikely, in either a striker fired or hammer fired pistol when the safety is switched on, or off, provided the pistol is equipped with a safety. But this 'click' would be even less noticeable than the sound of charging a revolver, if even noticeable at all.

In either case, when a revolver is charged, the trigger needs very little pull pressure to cause the gun to fire. Same being with a hammer fired semi automatic. If the safety is off on a hammer fired semi automatic pistol, and the trigger is pulled backwards, the trigger at that point is extremely touchy, and will fire with a minimum of pull pressure.

Why all this? Well, it's educational, plus, IMO, IF there was a click actually heard, I'd guess it to have come from a revolver, and second to that, one of John Moses Browning's 1911 designs, or a hammer fired semi-automatic, the revolver being most likely to make a noticeable noise when charging the trigger.

 

[m00c0w]

I suppose we dont know if RL or the K's have pets?

TK has a dog. Looks like a pit-ish breed.