Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #146

[AC4RD]

I agree. According to this article, more than a dozen people thought "Bridge Guy" was Ron Logan. That combined with the cell phone pings is pretty damning ...

(respectfully snipped for focus)
MOO but I would ask that you rethink how "damning" those identifications actually are. Eyewitness identification is very frequently inaccurate, see the links below. A brief web search will show you how often and how badly witness misidentification often is.

Look up if you like, Jean Hill, who was standing closer than 20 yards to President Kennedy when he was killed. She testified that JFK and Jackie were holding a small white dog in the limo. There was no dog. She testified that, after the shots, she ran up the Grassy Knoll chasing a supposed assassin; photos show she dropped to the ground and sat after the shots. She apparently believed both points even though photos prove they are untrue. "Mandela Effect" is incredibly powerful.

And in this particular case, we aren't even dealing with witnesses at the scene, it is people who say they believed RL to be the man in the video--they didn't actually identify him at the scene. Considering that viewers of the BG video can't agree on what sort of hat BG is wearing, if any, or shoes or limp or fanny pack and can't even agree on the breed of puppy or baby goat he has under his jacket, making a positive identification of an individual seems VERY farfetched IMO.

We also should consider that RL was obviously not a warm-n-fuzzy sweetiepie of a person and some people, consciously or unconsciously, may have used a personal dislike for RL to influence their claim that RL was the person in the BG video. Maybe we could do a poll here on Websleuths--how many people think the RL we see in the Feb 2017 TV news segments is the same person as in the bG video? I definitely don't think RL is the man in the video, MHO, and I suspect most of us don't.

Links:

Myth: Eyewitness Testimony is the Best Kind of Evidence

Activities in this unit reveal how eyewitness testimony is subject to unconscious memory distortions and biases even among the most confident of witnesses.

www.psychologicalscience.org

Mandela effect: What Is It, how It works, and more

The Mandela effect is one popular but heavily debated type of false memory. Learn more about it here, including potential causes and some famous examples.

www.medicalnewstoday.com

https://www.egattorneys.com/mistaken-eyewitness-identification

Just MHO but having a bunch of people say they think RL was the man in the video is definitely not "damning" proof of it.

 

[shonyakay]

I only watched a few minutes but two things stood out to me

1. Several times AW says BG said “HEY guys…dth”. Interesting but probably nothing

2. When was this posted? It seems she’s not aware of any of the a-s info so might be a few years old.

The video is dated September 30, 2000.

I noticed that as well that she seems completely unaware of the AS' account(s).

I suppose LE held it close to the vest for that long? I do remember very early on when someone from LE made the comment that parents should know what their children are up to.

 

[TL4S]

(respectfully snipped for focus)
MOO but I would ask that you rethink how "damning" those identifications actually are. Eyewitness identification is very frequently inaccurate, see the links below. A brief web search will show you how often and how badly witness misidentification often is.

Look up if you like, Jean Hill, who was standing closer than 20 yards to President Kennedy when he was killed. She testified that JFK and Jackie were holding a small white dog in the limo. There was no dog. She testified that, after the shots, she ran up the Grassy Knoll chasing a supposed assassin; photos show she dropped to the ground and sat after the shots. She apparently believed both points even though photos prove they are untrue. "Mandela Effect" is incredibly powerful.

And in this particular case, we aren't even dealing with witnesses at the scene, it is people who say they believed RL to be the man in the video--they didn't actually identify him at the scene. Considering that viewers of the BG video can't agree on what sort of hat BG is wearing, if any, or shoes or limp or fanny pack and can't even agree on the breed of puppy or baby goat he has under his jacket, making a positive identification of an individual seems VERY farfetched IMO.

We also should consider that RL was obviously not a warm-n-fuzzy sweetiepie of a person and some people, consciously or unconsciously, may have used a personal dislike for RL to influence their claim that RL was the person in the BG video. Maybe we could do a poll here on Websleuths--how many people think the RL we see in the Feb 2017 TV news segments is the same person as in the bG video? I definitely don't think RL is the man in the video, MHO, and I suspect most of us don't.

Links:

Myth: Eyewitness Testimony is the Best Kind of Evidence

Activities in this unit reveal how eyewitness testimony is subject to unconscious memory distortions and biases even among the most confident of witnesses.

www.psychologicalscience.org

Mandela effect: What Is It, how It works, and more

The Mandela effect is one popular but heavily debated type of false memory. Learn more about it here, including potential causes and some famous examples.

www.medicalnewstoday.com

https://www.egattorneys.com/mistaken-eyewitness-identification

Just MHO but having a bunch of people say they think RL was the man in the video is definitely not "damning" proof of it.

That's a good point. I wonder if many tips would have been called in on him had the girls not been found on his property.

 

[JnRyan]

(respectfully snipped for focus)
MOO but I would ask that you rethink how "damning" those identifications actually are. Eyewitness identification is very frequently inaccurate, see the links below. A brief web search will show you how often and how badly witness misidentification often is.

Look up if you like, Jean Hill, who was standing closer than 20 yards to President Kennedy when he was killed. She testified that JFK and Jackie were holding a small white dog in the limo. There was no dog. She testified that, after the shots, she ran up the Grassy Knoll chasing a supposed assassin; photos show she dropped to the ground and sat after the shots. She apparently believed both points even though photos prove they are untrue. "Mandela Effect" is incredibly powerful.

And in this particular case, we aren't even dealing with witnesses at the scene, it is people who say they believed RL to be the man in the video--they didn't actually identify him at the scene. Considering that viewers of the BG video can't agree on what sort of hat BG is wearing, if any, or shoes or limp or fanny pack and can't even agree on the breed of puppy or baby goat he has under his jacket, making a positive identification of an individual seems VERY farfetched IMO.

We also should consider that RL was obviously not a warm-n-fuzzy sweetiepie of a person and some people, consciously or unconsciously, may have used a personal dislike for RL to influence their claim that RL was the person in the BG video. Maybe we could do a poll here on Websleuths--how many people think the RL we see in the Feb 2017 TV news segments is the same person as in the bG video? I definitely don't think RL is the man in the video, MHO, and I suspect most of us don't.

Links:

Myth: Eyewitness Testimony is the Best Kind of Evidence

Activities in this unit reveal how eyewitness testimony is subject to unconscious memory distortions and biases even among the most confident of witnesses.

www.psychologicalscience.org

Mandela effect: What Is It, how It works, and more

The Mandela effect is one popular but heavily debated type of false memory. Learn more about it here, including potential causes and some famous examples.

www.medicalnewstoday.com

https://www.egattorneys.com/mistaken-eyewitness-identification

Just MHO but having a bunch of people say they think RL was the man in the video is definitely not "damning" proof of it.

As far as powers of observation go I've always loved this video taken from a PSA. See if you can count the number of passes.

 

[FrostedGlass]

As far as powers of observation go I've always loved this video taken from a PSA. See if you can count the number of passes.

Deleted my response.

 

[Arkay]

I used to use the video posted by @JnRyan as a teaching tool, helping my students to pay attention to detail. But please @FrostedGlass remove the reference in your response which gives the answer; it renders the video as useless.

I used to use this other video too, as a demonstration of how little we actually observe correctly.

I apologize as it's a murder mystery format which is not amusing due to the actual murders here, but it does reflect IMO how frequently eyewitness testimony fails.

 

[Seenit]

As far as powers of observation go I've always loved this video taken from a PSA. See if you can count the number of passes.

That is really interesting!

 

[sandy_80]

as I think about it
the souvenir thing seems doubtful >>since its clothes and not something more specific
its very possible these missing items were later found ..or fell in the water like the undergarments possibility

 

[Ravenmoon]

as I think about it
the souvenir thing seems doubtful >>since its clothes and not something more specific
its very possible these missing items were later found ..or fell in the water like the undergarments possibility

Well- considering the other things that have come to light through the release of these affidavits, I personally believe that it is more likely than not that some form of souvenir was taken.

And THAT leads me to the object that the judge signed off on within the RL search warrant- the cutting instrument. Whatever this is alluding to, it could have been used to remove hair , jewelry , etc.

About the clothing- keep in mind that this was done a month after the girls bodies were found. It is apparent, that at that point, some type of clothing had yet to be recovered.

JMO

 

[TheVisual]

as I think about it
the souvenir thing seems doubtful >>since its clothes and not something more specific
its very possible these missing items were later found ..or fell in the water like the undergarments possibility

Could be jewelry, hair tie, or a snip of hair which has been mention.

 

[Peppery]

Something I’ve tried to keep in mind as we re-discuss RL is that back in February and March 2017, many, many, MANY of us WSers suspected him. We didn’t know as much then as we know now, and the fact that LE was focusing on him really made him a reasonable suspect. When that March 16, 2017 (I think that’s the date) search of his property happened, along with the towing of his white truck happened, I though “yes, they got him!” In fact I remember exactly where I was and what I was doing, it struck me that hard. He was plenty fit enough to walk to crime scene, he had a past record, was reasonable for him to be on his own property, we knew he wasn’t truthful about his whereabouts of that day. Now we find out LE had even more reasons to investigate him… He was a very reasonable POI at the time. LE was also receiving thousands of tips a day, we don’t know how much info they’d gotten off LGs phone yes, we don’t know if all the possible DNA had been collected and tested yet, and on and on. This was a completely different case than it is today.

Looking at him now, RL doesn’t seem to fit BG profile at all but I’ll admit I really thought it was him five years ago.

 

[Peppery]

as I think about it
the souvenir thing seems doubtful >>since its clothes and not something more specific
its very possible these missing items were later found ..or fell in the water like the undergarments possibility

But we have no idea what the souvenir is. Like a previous poster said, could be a piece of jewelry, lock of hair, a torn or cut piece of their clothing, an entire item of clothing. If they were planning to meet a_s, did they bring something for him that hasn’t been found, like a small gift, a photo, a craft they made for him, a bracelet, a flower, etc.? It really could be anything and I think it’s pretty likely LE suspects he did take something with him. Moo

 

[M. Kay]

Looking at him now, RL doesn’t seem to fit BG profile at all but I’ll admit I really thought it was him five years ago.

No one recently has mentioned calls RL made to LE after the crime when someone was in his out buildings. (I regret not having a link for this but someone will remember.) Wasn't he fearful, uneasy?
I don't think RL was any part of the murder plan, yet rough characters had worked and socialized on his property, e.g. GK who is in prison for murder. "Birds of a feather"?
Was RL fearful he would be drawn in from bad associations and his own record? When I first saw BG and RL, I thought similar; now do not...as much as I would like to conclude this murder mystery!

 

[Diddian]

No one recently has mentioned calls RL made to LE after the crime when someone was in his out buildings. (I regret not having a link for this but someone will remember.) Wasn't he fearful, uneasy?
I don't think RL was any part of the murder plan, yet rough characters had worked and socialized on his property, e.g. GK who is in prison for murder. "Birds of a feather"?
Was RL fearful he would be drawn in from bad associations and his own record? When I first saw BG and RL, I thought similar; now do not...as much as I would like to conclude this murder mystery!

I have recently mentioned the two calls RL made to police about someone in his outbuilding (and another time in his house). Both of those calls were made in 2014 (March 31 and April 26).

Police Calls - Carroll County Comet

Police reports are gathered from available records on file at local police departments. This information is a matter of public record and does not imply quilt or innocence. Information for fire reports is also gathered from reports on file with local fire departments. Sheriff’s Dept. April 23...

www.carrollcountycomet.com

Police Calls - Carroll County Comet

Police reports are gathered from available records on file at local police departments. This information is a matter of public record and does not imply quilt or innocence. Information for fire reports is also gathered from reports on file with local fire departments. Sheriff’s Dept. March 28...

www.carrollcountycomet.com

 

[Ekliptika]

Could be jewelry, hair tie, or a snip of hair which has been mention.

Or shoes

 

[JnRyan]

Something I’ve tried to keep in mind as we re-discuss RL is that back in February and March 2017, many, many, MANY of us WSers suspected him. We didn’t know as much then as we know now, and the fact that LE was focusing on him really made him a reasonable suspect. When that March 16, 2017 (I think that’s the date) search of his property happened, along with the towing of his white truck happened, I though “yes, they got him!” In fact I remember exactly where I was and what I was doing, it struck me that hard. He was plenty fit enough to walk to crime scene, he had a past record, was reasonable for him to be on his own property, we knew he wasn’t truthful about his whereabouts of that day. Now we find out LE had even more reasons to investigate him… He was a very reasonable POI at the time. LE was also receiving thousands of tips a day, we don’t know how much info they’d gotten off LGs phone yes, we don’t know if all the possible DNA had been collected and tested yet, and on and on. This was a completely different case than it is today.

Looking at him now, RL doesn’t seem to fit BG profile at all but I’ll admit I really thought it was him five years ago.

Back then when LE stated that RL was arrested and that he wasn't connected to the crime. (I believe that was ISP Sgt Kim Riley talking to the media as they were towing away RL's vehicle.) There was also a comment by either Riley or CC Sheriff Leazenby stating that they can't ignore ANY criminal activity that they come across during the investigation.

So I took LE at their word and thought RL was simply in the wrong place at the wrong time and if this murder had not occurred on his property he would likely have gotten away with driving when he wasn't supposed to drive.

So now I was surprised when the affidavit surfaced. Of course, during the first 3-4 weeks when I saw the photo and heard the voice of the suspect I thought these murders would be solved within the next month or so. So I was surprised when the summer came along and there were no arrests, no suspects and no POI's.

 

[Cryptic]

I'd have assumed that there would be a digital record of some sort or another when it comes to popular SM platforms, one which could be easily searchable by LE in a case, but apparently that's not always an option.

JMO

I think your supposition is correct.

For example....

Following the San Bernardino terror attack, federal law enforcement really wanted to access the perpetrators I phone- with out triggering the auto erasure of the information.

The case was a national level terror case and the FBI, CIA, NSC etc. have enormous resources in regards to data re-construction etc.

But...not even they were confident that they could reconstruct the erased data on the phone. So, they took Apple through a long court battle to unlock the phones w/o erasure. Eventually, the FBI withdrew the Court request because a third party helped them out regarding the erasure.

Anyways, using the erased I phone data fear of the FBI, one could extrapolate that once some social media exchanges erase- they truly erase to the extent that not even national level resources can readily reconstruct them.

Apple Fights Court Order to Unlock San Bernardino Shooter's iPhone - Nouvelles de sécurité - Trend Micro FR

The US federal court has ordered Apple to comply with an FBI request to unlock the iPhone of one of the San Bernardino shooters. Here’s why Apple said "no," and why it matters.

www.trendmicro.com

 

[NeverPersonal]

<rsbm>

Maybe I'm missing something, but RL was at the transfer station in the morning, and at the fish store around 5:00ish. Why was his false alibi only for the timeframe in which the girls were believed to have been killed instead of coinciding with the times he actually went to the transfer station earlier in the day and the fish store later in the day?

This is a very good point and something I didn't previously consider, thanks for saying it.

 

[Falling Down]

No one recently has mentioned calls RL made to LE after the crime when someone was in his out buildings. (I regret not having a link for this but someone will remember.) Wasn't he fearful, uneasy?
I don't think RL was any part of the murder plan, yet rough characters had worked and socialized on his property, e.g. GK who is in prison for murder. "Birds of a feather"?
Was RL fearful he would be drawn in from bad associations and his own record? When I first saw BG and RL, I thought similar; now do not...as much as I would like to conclude this murder mystery!

One thing that stuck out at me early on about RL is how well known he was in that area at the time of the murders. He raised and boardered horses on his property. The private trails on his and others' properties along the creek were used by horse riders on occasion.

On my end, it stands to reason that he would have crossed paths with many people of various backgrounds while living on that property since the 1960's.

JMO

 

[Falling Down]

I think your supposition is correct.

For example....

Following the San Bernardino terror attack, federal law enforcement really wanted to access the perpetrators I phone- with out triggering the auto erasure of the information.

The case was a national level terror case and the FBI, CIA, NSC etc. have enormous resources in regards to data re-construction etc.

But...not even they were confident that they could reconstruct the erased data on the phone. So, they took Apple through a long court battle to unlock the phones w/o erasure. Eventually, the FBI withdrew the Court request because a third party helped them out regarding the erasure.

Anyways, using the erased I phone data fear of the FBI, one could extrapolate that once some social media exchanges erase- they truly erase to the extent that not even national level resources can readily reconstruct them.

Apple Fights Court Order to Unlock San Bernardino Shooter's iPhone - Nouvelles de sécurité - Trend Micro FR

The US federal court has ordered Apple to comply with an FBI request to unlock the iPhone of one of the San Bernardino shooters. Here’s why Apple said "no," and why it matters.

www.trendmicro.com

I agree with all of that. Plus it came up early on here in this case that it can be difficult for LE to get warrants to gain information from various social media platforms. Virtually impossible sometimes if the platform is not based in the country the agency seeking a warrant is based in.

Apparently this issue has come up in other cases in recent years.