Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #147

woundwarrior

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Seems there is an appreciable amount of work going behind the scenes. Just a few days ago there was a 55 year old male from Toledo, Ohio arrested after speaking with an undercover posing as an underage female. He attempted to make arrangements to meet, spoke of relocating to another state with her, and sent intimate photos of himself. He is a known sex offender. He is currently in Howard County custody. Thank you Kokomo for getting this off the streets and off the internet. Check Howardcountyin.gov
 

UnapologeticallyAspie

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So frustrating that there is video, audio and DNA evidence and still no arrest. Was there cell phone data done on phones connected to towers close by? Why can’t family tree DNA matches be done? How much do LE know that they haven’t disclosed? When were the girls phones analysed? Did they find anything about a meet up? I can’t imagine how awful the wait for justice is for the family.
RBBM for focus.

IMO, it’s either a lot or barely anything, but nothing in between. MOO.

(Always MOO. IMHO. IMHAspieO. YMMV. JMVHO.)
 

raja

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It appears we're looking for a word or phrase of 15 or 16 letters. It takes the space of 16 letters on the line below it. However, the typographic width varies depending upon the letter so it's not certain.
It maybe that the redacted portion is more than one word I.e. right pink sneaker or something else similar.
 

UnapologeticallyAspie

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Have LE indicated why they've only released, like, one second of the visual and four words of the audio? There's just so very little to go on from that, but my understanding is the full video is something like 40-ish seconds. Surely a larger "sample" might help recognition bells go off for someone.
I’ve been wondering for quite some time if the FBI has strongly suggested that the local and/or state LE keep their evidence (or lack there of…¯\_(ツ)_/¯ ) close to the vest, OR if it’s the local and/or state LE preference to keep everything under wraps?!??

(Always MOO. IMHO. IMHAspieO. YMMV. JMVHO.)
 

UnapologeticallyAspie

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Do you really think the killer murdered them in the outhouse and then carried them both down across the creek to the crime scene in broad daylight? To me, that sounds like a stretch. It seems more likely to me that he assaulted them “down the hill” aka under the bridge, and perhaps one or both tried to make a run for it.
IMO, it doesn’t seem like a stretch to me if there was an accessory after the fact. And who’s to say that this possibility isn’t possible?

And if in fact there was another person there, honestly and seriously how would we even know if this was the case since LE has been so hush-hush, not to mention that they lied to A&L’s families and to the public for almost 5 years?!!? And this doesn’t even include some (if not all??) of the POIs who have yet to be cleared.

(Always MOO. IMHO. IMHAspieO. YMMV. JMVHO.)
 

Ravenmoon

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Please correct me if I’m wrong, the affidavit was from 2017?

Because IMHO if that is the case then there’s the possibility that the missing thing has since been recovered since.

(Always MOO. IMHO. YMMV. JMVHO.)

Yes, it was.
The affidavit was also made almost a month after the murders.
I suppose it's possible that item was located, but seems that the search of the crime scene almost definitely was completed prior to that.

MOO
 

sandy_80

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Yes, it was.
The affidavit was also made almost a month after the murders.
I suppose it's possible that item was located, but seems that the search of the crime scene almost definitely was completed prior to that.

MOO
if there was a retrive of evidence after that.. we or the media would have known
everybody was watching the area like a hawk
also the staging of crime scenes seems to be constant with a killer who would take a trophy
 

UnapologeticallyAspie

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(I went to respond to somebody’s post and started googling and went to the media thread and this particular podcast that was transcribed by cujenn81 caught my eye and I wanted to share it with y’all, especially to you who may have not read it or have forgotten what was said, etc… My own comments/opinions are written in parentheses. Some words or phrases will be folded by me personally for reference.)

IN - Abigail Williams & Liberty German, Delphi, Media, Maps, Timelines NO DISCUSSION

I went to the media thread to review some things and I have copied and pasted only some of the things said at the

Transcribed by cujenn81, post #906 on 2/17/21
_____________________________________________________




BEST CASE WORST CASE SCENARIO: THE DELPHI MURDERS (Episode 123)

PART 1 – Released April 25, 2019

Best Case Worst Case is a podcast hosted by former federal prosecutor Francey Hakes and Retired FBI Supervisory Special Agent & Profiler Jim Clemente. For this particular discussion, they invited two additional retired FBI Special Agents to join them, Maureen O’Connell and Bobby Chacon.

Hakes

Jim, I want to ask you first of all, a question we always get on social media. You’ve got someone who has obviously killed and you don’t know if they were sexually assaulted. What’s the motivation for the murder? Uh, because the police have not released it. But some person has taken the life of two teenage girls. What motivates someone like that? How can anyone kill teenage girls like that?



Clemente

Well, unfortunately, if you’re looking at the motivations for these, the vast majority of them are sexual in nature. And, unfortunately, that’s, you know, a sad reality. That’s probably the most likely.
The other motivations in child abduction homicides are greed, somebody getting in the way of, uh, a relationship, and, um –


Chacon

Like Chris Watts when he killed those – his two daughters.



Clemente

Yes.



Chacon

If – I believe that’s right. That was – that was getting in the way of his relationship.

(After reading this tweenthis convo between Clemente & Chacon, I’m now left wondering if someone that pertains to this specific case of Abby and Libby, perhaps related to somebody else got jealous and or possessive, thinking that the other may have been getting in the way of their relationship with Libby…just a thought)


Clemente

But the fact that Libby took the pictures tells me that she was fairly certain that something bad was happening.

….

(So does this mean that there are pictures in addition to the video and audio??)….



O’Connell

She knew for sure. And then they did an audio, as well. And going back, uh, to piggyback on what you said. We saw an initial grainy photograph back in 2017 when these girls were abducted and murdered. And in that photography, I remember thinking that this guy was a very heavyset person. (Could this wording be a possible tell/slip, like O’Connell was referring to KAK, because they knew in 2017 that KAK was a potential suspect, but at that time or rather at the time of this podcast that info had not been released to us, the general public) But the significance of the video they put out yesterday, shows a person – if you look at his legs and the movement – his legs look rather thin. (Again this could be a possible reference/L that they knew about KAK, and in my humble opinion of course some of them if not all of them would have privy to LE knowledge/evidence, especially Jim Clemente!) That there is a lot of stuff shoved into his jacket and he also has a fanny pack on. Um, and you can see the gape caused by this, um –



Clemente

Bulk.

O’Connell

Bulk, exactly. Between the, uh, between the buttons. So, uh, he could have had what could be described as like a kill kit or something of that nature in there. Or a gun or something.



Clemente

Yeah, it could be. You know, the fact is that he was clearly kind of trying to disguise himself – hide his identity and probably hide whatever he used to threaten them. And it was very effective.



Chacon

And Libby’s grandfather is quite sure that she took those pictures and that audio – or that video and that audio – (again is that a slip? Because what I am reading thus far is that not only is there a video and audio which we already know about, there are also pictures that we don’t know about yet) because she thought there was something wrong with him. I think he even said like, “I think she was probably gonna come back home and tell me – Look, I saw this strange man hanging out at the park.”
….(Hakes, Chacon & Clemente go on to talk about the video that Libby took. The why’s & more. After a little back-and-forth between the three, Clemente goes on to say, see below. And for reference you can click the link to go read the entire thing yourself.)

Clemente

Situational awareness is obviously something that Libby exhibited here. She clearly understood that this guy was not there for good reasons. That he had nefarious intent. And, thankfully, because of that (video, audio, etc.) we have some leads in this case. Otherwise, we’d have almost nothing.

…..Hakes (goes on to say): “when police originally released some of the video, some of the audio, and the sketch two years ago, they said – “There was MORE evidence relating to the suspect on the phone, but we’re not going to release it in order to avoid compromising a future trial.”

Chacon

Sure. My default position was always don’t release anything in my investigation unless it aids the investigation. I have no obligation to anyone outside the investigation. My obligation is to track down the perpetrator of the crime in a way that’s going to allow someone like yourself to prosecute the person successfully.
There IS a certain obligation to the family. We have special victim witness people that handle that stuff. But as far as the evidence in the case, I even have to always be careful what you tell the family. Sometimes that comes off as looking insensitive. …. If they’re withholding information, it has everything to do with the validity of this investigation, and protecting the – the investigation and capturing the perpetrator. It has nothing to do with wanting to withhold from the family. (I am completely guilty and judgments or rather judging LE about keeping their evidence private and/or not telling us the full truth however I don’t like partial truths or even lies but hey that’s just me, a big fat nobody)



Clemente

The family doesn’t WANT to know information that will end up hurting the prosecution down the road. So, they typically understand.
Of course, if the investigation goes on unsolved for years and decades, the family can get very frustrated. But still, if in the end their goal is to actually get a suspect arrested, and have a successful prosecution, and get justice for their family member or their loved one, well then in the end, the sacrifice they have to make in not knowing the details, that’s a very worthy sacrifice.



O’Connell

Although – although we don’t want to admit it, oftentimes the big leaks from investigations DO come from the family members because they ARE so emotional. And, rightfully so.
So, we don’t tell them everything because we don’t want them sharing that information with other people.

….

Clemente

Right. And here’s the thing, Francey. You know, to answer people who think “why now – why are they releasing this now?” Because it may have been the arrest of that one guy who fit that description very well a couple days ago. That may have been them finally ruling him out as the killer. And so, now they have more confidence and it is the perfect time to release this other sketch of this other person that has now become the primary suspect in this case. And from what the cops said, they probably have some other reasons to suspect him as well.

….

O’Connell

We would, I – I just have the feeling – and this is just a feeling based on the information that we’ve received so far from the police and that in the presser yesterday – that, um, they may have been posed or staged. And I – I think, Bobby, you were in LA when we worked that case with that beautiful young victim, Samantha Runyon. And she too was posed. And, that was one time, um, Francey, where I saw a hardened seasoned homicide detective cry.
So, it’s that type of thing. It’s the victimization on top of the victimization, the piling on that these people do for their own personal gratification. So, in a situation like that there’s going to be a lot of evidence. And there’s going to be a lot of evidence that has to be very, very, very carefully collected and then maintained.

….


Clemente

I think he set up his trap and they fell into it. But he needed to get them to a particular place so he could have privacy to do what he wanted to do.


O’Connell

Or, you know, following along on that part of his, um, sexual gratification could be taking them to another place and building a lair where he can do what he’s doing. But you’re right... he — he, in moving them, it does say a lot about this person. And everything he did, every move he made, is another signature and these signatures add up.


Hakes

Jim, what does the actual location itself tell you about, uh, you know, sort of the offender and where he might be from? What sort of geographic information can you glean knowing that it’s kind of a local area and that there may have been movement of the bodies and there may be a lair?



Clemente

Well, I think there’s more details to it.
But I think that a number of these, you know, sort of intricacies and nuances tell me that he’s probably from around there. That he spends a significant amount of time there. Whether he grew up there or he landed there from somewhere else, I don’t know. But he’s certainly spent enough time to know that this was a place where little girls who fit his fantasy could come by, you know.
I think he’s the kind of guy who fantasized a great deal about doing this. That this is not something impulsive; this is something that he planned for. He played it out in his mind over and over again. It didn’t go exactly as he planned but he thought about this. He was compulsive. He played this fantasy in his mind repeatedly, and then, you know, took steps to carry it out. And that whatever that was, in terms of, you know, him preparing a place, uh, preparing a way to threaten and control his intended victim, um, preparing a place where he could, you know, sort of be unseen until the victim came into view – sort of laying his trap or throwing out his net.
I think he showed some level of criminal sophistication that only comes from having done, committed, precursor crimes. I think he would’ve exhibited peeping behavior. He might have broken into residences to basically be there for, you know, when somebody wasn’t home, and go thru you know underwear drawers and things like that.



Hakes

Your voyeur kind of crimes.



Clemente

Yes
. Well, the peeping is that voyeur side but the other side is more like the excitement, the thrill of being in a place that you’re not supposed to be and looking at people’s intimate things. And he probably did those kinds of things and they are called nuisance crimes. And it might have been misdemeanors, but I believe he probably has a record like that. He almost certainly DID it. I don’t know if he got caught at it before.
But the guy has also some level of forensics investigation because he didn’t apparently leave a lot of forensic evidence behind of himself, at least that they’ve reported. So, that tells me that he wasn’t, you know, uneducated on forensics. So, he has some experience. And that may come from his experience as a criminal. That may come from having been arrested before on certain things, so now he knows how to avoid those things.



Hakes

Could it also be because he maybe has not ever been arrested by law enforcement and is secure in the knowledge that his DNA exists nowhere but inside himself?



Clemente


Well, I don’t know. I don’t know that – because he wouldn’t know about investigative genealogy – but that wouldn’t protect him anymore. But at that point, you know, I don’t think people who protect themselves by not leaving evidence are doing it because they don’t think they can be caught if they leave evidence. It’s that they think they can get caught if they do leave evidence.



(There is more to this podcast that is fully transcribed and the link is above for anyone who is interested in reading the entire thing. I strongly urge you to go back and read not only this article in its entirety but the thread for media in general. Because in my opinion if you read all of this and think about what we know now versus of what we knew then, there was a lot of clues in these podcasts. Perhaps we just didn’t recognize them as clues until now or rather until a few months ago. And/or there may be some of us, like myself, who did not start following this case until 2019, and I haven’t read all of the 100 & something threads, nor all of the media threads as well. Anyway I still suggest that anyone who has not taken a peek at the transcribed info/media that cujenn81 has kindly transcribed for us (thank you so sooooo much cujenn81, this is a wonderful blessing for us or rather at least it is for me. And I really appreciate you taking the time to do this!!). Also note that if you do go back and read it talks about the podcast talks about genealogy more than once. Off to dinner I go. See y’all later. OK so I didn’t post this before I ate dinner. And now that I have eaten dinner I’m extremely exhausted and I’m laying in my bed, but I’m going to read the second of the third episode of this podcast series. TTFN)
 

sunshineray

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would they be looking for something already recovered ? isnt that why its listed in the warrant ?
If the word in warrant is " undergarments" plural, even with the "was" not a "were", a girl in that age group of the girls would probably be wearing two undergarments. That would then be one possibly recovered and the other one still missing?
 

Yemelyan

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Clemente

Right. And here’s the thing, Francey. You know, to answer people who think “why now – why are they releasing this now?” Because it may have been the arrest of that one guy who fit that description very well a couple days ago. That may have been them finally ruling him out as the killer. And so, now they have more confidence and it is the perfect time to release this other sketch of this other person that has now become the primary suspect in this case. And from what the cops said, they probably have some other reasons to suspect him as well.

….

I snipped and bolded this part of your post because some people who are newer to the case may not know who the podcasters are referring to here when they talk about "the arrest of that one guy who fit that description very well" - it's likely Charles Eldredge:
Alleged Child Molester Draws FBI's Attention For Resemblance To Delphi Snapchat Killer

He would have been the "flavor of the month" suspect in the public/social media realms just prior to the 2019 press conference and the release of this podcast episode based on his arrest date. I would point out that LE in the Delphi case never officially went on record ruling him out. He was convicted in December of 2019 of various sex crimes against a 13 year old and was sentenced to 25 years (5 years suspended).
 

minazoe

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one impression I got from KAK's FB is that he is meticulous...his photography and editing is clean and has a kind of professional polish.. I don't know if this is reflected in his lifestyle, but it does go to someone who would be very much in
control of his crime scene..that said you would think that if a lot of planning and fantasy went in to these murders that he would have been well aware of the lifespan of DNA in an outdoor environment which supposedly he was searching for
info on this in the days following the murder.

I mean knowing where your DNA could turn up is like Murder 101.

I get a lot of vibes off him and he is definitely a talented under achiever...for sure a psychopath and a easy liar...for sure a no good sick pedophile..I still think the murders were done in order to make money on the video that I am convinced was
made by the killer/killers..I wonder if they found any thing in his home like drawings or writings that follow elements of the staging..it was definitely more than a murderous tantrum by a bully...it was staged for shock , done during the day when there would be plenty of natural light for the camera. I really don't think there was concern for who's property it was on etc..just enough out of sight to go unnoticed. If this was a money scheme..they may have gone to Las Vegas to sell the video or seek out a buyer..it may have been too hot and they couldn't risk showing it and had to lay low.

I think if KAK wasn't involved he would rat out his own grandma...so ...

mOO
 

UnapologeticallyAspie

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I snipped and bolded this part of your post because some people who are newer to the case may not know who the podcasters are referring to here when they talk about "the arrest of that one guy who fit that description very well" - it's likely Charles Eldredge:
Alleged Child Molester Draws FBI's Attention For Resemblance To Delphi Snapchat Killer

He would have been the "flavor of the month" suspect in the public/social media realms just prior to the 2019 press conference and the release of this podcast episode based on his arrest date. I would point out that LE in the Delphi case never officially went on record ruling him out. He was convicted in December of 2019 of various sex crimes against a 13 year old and was sentenced to 25 years (5 years suspended).
Oh my gosh I’m so glad that you responded! I thought that you would which is why I’m glad that you did. While editing what I wanted to say on my post, I specifically thought of you! I was originally going to say ‘for you people that don’t have a photographic/eidetic memory’ perhaps you should read this/these media posts, as they are very helpful and quite informative’. And the reason that I thought of you was because in my humblest opinion you, Yem, possess a photographic/eidetic memory. e.g. your response to my post above. I could give you many more examples but IYKYK, and you most certainly know. ;)

Also thank you so much for bringing this fact into the present discussion, because not all of us (raising my hand here, waving hello) have been here since the beginning and/or some of us may not have listen to every podcast by every podcaster, read all of the threads in the media section, read all of the 146 main threads, read all of the MSM article or otherwise, etc.

I know I can always count on you to share with us the absolute truth regarding any and all references to this case. You truly are a gem!

(Always, MOO. IMHO. IMHAspieO. YMMV. JMVHO.)

ETA: the word ‘waving’
 
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Jbootneil

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So how were these poor girls killed?

Yes he had a gun but imo that would be too loud. I’d say strangulation but I heard crime scene was messy so that sorta confuses me
 

Detective Willy

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Been musing over this problem. The document is not riddled with typos and grammar errors. It is written in crisp, Hemingway-esque, grammatically correct LEO English. I found one instance of bad punctuation, a sentence incorrectly broken into two. ("The video from the transfer station appears to be off by 26 minutes. Putting LOGAN at the transfer station from approximately 11:53 AM and 11:58 AM.") That's all I found in a rather cursory scan.

The sentence with the trophy redacted reads as follows: "It was discovered that the __________ of one of the victim's was missing from the crime scene while the rest of their clothing was recovered."

"WAS missing." We are invited to believe that the subject of that verb is singular. "Undergarments" is plural. "Undergarments WAS missing" is wrong. "Panties and sock" is plural. "Panties and sock WAS missing" is also wrong. One might also more readily expect "panties and A sock."

Maybe the redacted word/phrase is something else. Or maybe the document contains at least two grammar mistakes. Hard to say.
Maybe the missing item(s) have never been found and hence this is why LE believe that BG took a trophy?
 

Charlot123

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It appears we're looking for a word or phrase of 15 or 16 letters. It takes the space of 16 letters on the line below it. However, the typographic width varies depending upon the letter so it's not certain.

It could be Libby’s shoe. For example, “the right shoe”, or “the left sneaker”. Something like it.
 

Kell1

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Good early morning from SoCal. It should be a Federal crime to text me before 6:30 am on the one day I was supposed to sleep in! KELL1, I did pick up on the "moving around a lot" in terms of a particular type of offender. I believe the term the detective used was "things are stacking up." (I'll bring your post forward, later, ok?)
Somehow in the twilight thoughts between dreaming and awakening, I had one of those big "what if" moments. TK cut off ties to his son a couple of weeks after KAK's arrest and DNA test, right? "He is not talking to me or putting money in my commissary account, blah, blah, blah." And suddenly had a Maury Povich moment.....and it goes something like this:
"We just got the results back and TK, You-Are-Not-The-Father!" Wouldn't that be something? I had 3 clients this year alone who after years of paying child support, found out they were not the biological donor after all. In each case, they lived with the female, assumed it was their child and didn't want to "rock the boat" because everyone was so happy and in love, then. Sometimes a man doesn't even have to take a DNA test to prove they are not the donor. Many blood types are impossible combinations or a medical condition led to sterility.
Its not uncommon that those around a suspect sever ties with them , especially if they know something .

You have to remember, that this individual "may" be completely innocent of these 2 murders, but the CSM case against him alone could be enough for those around him to want to distance themselves, if I recall LE said its the largest in state history.

Not really a "That's my boy" moment .

And people cutting ties is not at all uncommon for the introverted type offender, (note introverted, refers to the psychological typology, not to the lifestyle of the individual), they may actually do it themselves, as all the sudden they have to get out of town, remember they are frequently moving around and in different living arrangements, throughout their life.

They offend they get caught, they move, the re-offend, they get caught they move.
 

Schatz

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Its not uncommon that those around a suspect sever ties with them , especially if they know something .

You have to remember, that this individual "may" be completely innocent of these 2 murders, but the CSM case against him alone could be enough for those around him to want to distance themselves, if I recall LE said its the largest in state history.

Not really a "That's my boy" moment .

And people cutting ties is not at all uncommon for the introverted type offender, (note introverted, refers to the psychological typology, not to the lifestyle of the individual), they may actually do it themselves, as all the sudden they have to get out of town, remember they are frequently moving around and in different living arrangements, throughout their life.

They offend they get caught, they move, the re-offend, they get caught they move.

Could you expound upon the difference between the introverted psychological typology vs the social introvert?
 

Schatz

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one impression I got from KAK's FB is that he is meticulous...his photography and editing is clean and has a kind of professional polish.. I don't know if this is reflected in his lifestyle, but it does go to someone who would be very much in
control of his crime scene..that said you would think that if a lot of planning and fantasy went in to these murders that he would have been well aware of the lifespan of DNA in an outdoor environment which supposedly he was searching for
info on this in the days following the murder.

I mean knowing where your DNA could turn up is like Murder 101.

I get a lot of vibes off him and he is definitely a talented under achiever...for sure a psychopath and a easy liar...for sure a no good sick pedophile..I still think the murders were done in order to make money on the video that I am convinced was
made by the killer/killers..I wonder if they found any thing in his home like drawings or writings that follow elements of the staging..it was definitely more than a murderous tantrum by a bully...it was staged for shock , done during the day when there would be plenty of natural light for the camera. I really don't think there was concern for who's property it was on etc..just enough out of sight to go unnoticed. If this was a money scheme..they may have gone to Las Vegas to sell the video or seek out a buyer..it may have been too hot and they couldn't risk showing it and had to lay low.

I think if KAK wasn't involved he would rat out his own grandma...so ...

mOO

But if KAK is so meticulous in these ways, wouldn’t he have researched how long DNA stays on a thing *before* this specific crime?
 

minazoe

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But if KAK is so meticulous in these ways, wouldn’t he have researched how long DNA stays on a thing *before* this specific crime?
thats what Im saying...why would he be searching that info ? ( unless it was to show someone else) ...these people make me sick by the way... or it was someone ese using his phone.
 
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