Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #148

[TheProblemWeAllLiveWith]

Not everyone has a 9-5, M-F job. A lot of people work weekends and night shifts, especially in an area with a lot of manufacturing.

As for the possible suspects (that we know about) matching the video... the descriptions based on the video are very vague at best. The FBI has already scrubbed all the descriptors. Basically the descriptor is a white guy who is not at either extremes of height and is very average.

Agree, such a good point about shift work! But there’s something that nags at me. And this is a load of speculation of course.
What if BG did have a regular 9-5 job, but that day was a school calendar day off, like the girls had?
Doug Carter said, among other things, you may work here, what will those closest to you think… it implies to me that the suspect has a reputation in good standing, someone who should be trustworthy.
The statement coincides with the ‘Guys’ audio release. Does it sound like someone speaking from a position of familiarity and authority?
Was this someone known to the girls? A parent of a friend, a coach, someone in the school system, a friend of the family, someone they would have encountered on a somewhat regular basis enough to recognize?
One problem here is the alleged reference by Abby to ‘the creepy guy and of course his voice should have been identified if he was a familiar person by now.
Also I don’t know how much significance to give to Doug Carter’s words from several years ago. I feel like we’re stuck spinning our wheels and it’s frustrating but I agree with the poster who said it’s an ‘us’ problem.

 

[Prime8]

Agree, such a good point about shift work! But there’s something that nags at me. And this is a load of speculation of course.
What if BG did have a regular 9-5 job, but that day was a school calendar day off, like the girls had?
Doug Carter said, among other things, you may work here, what will those closest to you think… it implies to me that the suspect has a reputation in good standing, someone who should be trustworthy.
The statement coincides with the ‘Guys’ audio release. Does it sound like someone speaking from a position of familiarity and authority?
Was this someone known to the girls? A parent of a friend, a coach, someone in the school system, a friend of the family, someone they would have encountered on a somewhat regular basis enough to recognize?
One problem here is the alleged reference by Abby to ‘the creepy guy and of course his voice should have been identified if he was a familiar person by now.
Also I don’t know how much significance to give to Doug Carter’s words from several years ago. I feel like we’re stuck spinning our wheels and it’s frustrating but I agree with the poster who said it’s an ‘us’ problem.

He could have had the day off due to school closing, we just don't know. "Guys" is such a ubiquitous term in the midwest (and other places, I'm sure), i'm not sure much can be read into that. Yes, the way he said it was authoritative, but that could very easily/likely be due to the intent (to get the girls to listen to him) and not his position in life. I used to spend a lot of time thinking about what his words mean, but I've come to the conclusion that all his words likely mean is that he approached the girls with a plan.

I've thought about it a lot, and I think Carter's reference to the killer being someone of people would be surprised about could just be a way to get people to think outside the box and maybe call something in that they've been sitting on. It's easy to call in a tip about a neighbor who creeps you out and flashes women at the park. It's hard to call in a tip about a guy from work that's always is nice to you and seems to be hardworking and has a lot of friends. People tend to gravitate to the idea that murderers are drifter serial killers who don't interact with society when a lot of them are just your friend's dad or the old guy down the street.

 

[somequestions]

Not everyone has a 9-5, M-F job. A lot of people work weekends and night shifts, especially in an area with a lot of manufacturing.

As for the possible suspects (that we know about) matching the video... the descriptions based on the video are very vague at best. The FBI has already scrubbed all the descriptors. Basically the descriptor is a white guy who is not at either extremes of height and is very average.

That is true, but when you look at the timing of this case, Monday, February 13th, 2017 at a little after 2 pm you have to wonder. The timestamp of the last picture of Abigail Williams is what is interesting.

From my experience most first shifts are 6-2pm while second shift is 3-11pm. When you factor in the time of the crime, I would wonder whether this person had a regular job. There is still 3rd shift work which cannot be ruled out. But I think unless a 3rd shift person went directly home to bed, even that would seem a little strange to me they are walking around the Monon High Bridge trail at the time it is thought this person was there and not at home asleep.

Even a planned meeting would be strange. If, for example, a person took a day off work to meet up with Abby and Libby, I would think they would want to make sure and have already confirmed with Abby and Libby through social media communication that they would meet up. It would certainly be strange to take a day off work without first confirming the girls planned to be there at the Monon High Bridge on Monday, February 13th. This is if you think it is someone the girls met over social media who took the time to travel there.

This crime happened on Monday, February 13th, 2017. The last picture of Abigail Williams on the bridge was taken by Liberty German a little after 2 pm. Many times managers and HR do not work on the weekend so this person would have to let people know by Friday or at the absolute latest, Saturday(if managers and HR are working on a Saturday), that they would be missing work on Monday or leaving work early(to go to the Monon High Bridge). Normally that little notice for missing work is not welcome by most businesses.

After the crime happened this person would have to hope that no one recognizes them from Liberty German's phone video as well as hope no one remembers they took off that particular day. All this taken into consideration, the small town and the job shift, and it makes me wonder if this person lived anywhere near Delphi, Indiana when this crime happened or had any type of shift job. But maybe it was just a vacation day? That is possible. It could have been a last minute vacation day request, even if the business was not happy with it.

I know this stuff is probably not as interesting to others as it is to me. If a person works for a union, though, shift work tends to be common. I know I am basing all this on a timestamp from a picture and a day of the week, but if this is all the information I had then this is how I would look at it. In my opinion, Liberty German's video is important not just for what it shows, but for when it shows it.

 

[TL4S]

That is true, but when you look at the timing of this case, Monday, February 13th, 2017 at a little after 2 pm you have to wonder. The timestamp of the last picture of Abigail Williams is what is interesting.

From my experience most first shifts are 6-2pm while second shift is 3-11pm. When you factor in the time of the crime, I would wonder whether this person had a regular job. There is still 3rd shift work which cannot be ruled out. But I think unless a 3rd shift person went directly home to bed, even that would seem a little strange to me they are walking around the Monon High Bridge trail at the time it is thought this person was there and not at home asleep.

Even a planned meeting would be strange. If, for example, a person took a day off work to meet up with Abby and Libby, I would think they would want to make sure and have already confirmed with Abby and Libby through social media communication that they would meet up. It would certainly be strange to take a day off work without first confirming the girls planned to be there at the Monon High Bridge on Monday, February 13th. This is if you think it is someone the girls met over social media who took the time to travel there.

This crime happened on Monday, February 13th, 2017. The last picture of Abigail Williams on the bridge was taken by Liberty German a little after 2 pm. Many times managers and HR do not work on the weekend so this person would have to let people know by Friday or at the absolute latest, Saturday(if managers and HR are working on a Saturday), that they would be missing work on Monday or leaving work early(to go to the Monon High Bridge). Normally that little notice for missing work is not welcome by most businesses.

After the crime happened this person would have to hope that no one recognizes them from Liberty German's phone video as well as hope no one remembers they took off that particular day. All this taken into consideration, the small town and the job shift, and it makes me wonder if this person lived anywhere near Delphi, Indiana when this crime happened or had any type of shift job. But maybe it was just a vacation day? That is possible. It could have been a last minute vacation day request, even if the business was not happy with it.

I know this stuff is probably not as interesting to others as it is to me. If a person works for a union, though, shift work tends to be common. I know I am basing all this on a timestamp from a picture and a day of the week, but if this is all the information I had then this is how I would look at it. In my opinion, Liberty German's video is important not just for what it shows, but for when it shows it.

I agree, the timestamp is an important piece of evidence, no doubt, and so is the timing of the video/audio. Iirc, LE said the encounter happened around 2:13 pm (I can't find a source, so moo from memory). And Monday afternoon is significant, for all the reasons you listed.

In the case of KAK, who we know LE talked to in regards to Delphi, he didn't have a steady job. His father did, but he worked third shift and had Mondays off. Whether or not they are involved is another story, but they serve as a reminder that there are plenty of men who didn't have to miss work to have been available, planned or unplanned, on a Monday afternoon, especially if they were local.

In addition, for those inclined to believe it, there's also the ski mask incident, which again happened on a Monday afternoon, around the same time, exactly one week after the murders. If these two events were related, it would seem, imo, that the perpetrator had Monday afternoons free or otherwise wouldn't stand out as missing from anywhere on a Monday afternoon. That is, most definitely, interesting. Jmo.

Add to that, the April 22, 2019 New Direction PC and the Dec. 6, 2021 a_shots release, among other statements by LE, have all taken place on Mondays, as well. Is that strategic on LE's part, maybe? I'm certainly curious.

 

[TheVisual]

Agree, such a good point about shift work! But there’s something that nags at me. And this is a load of speculation of course.
What if BG did have a regular 9-5 job, but that day was a school calendar day off, like the girls had?
Doug Carter said, among other things, you may work here, what will those closest to you think… it implies to me that the suspect has a reputation in good standing, someone who should be trustworthy.
The statement coincides with the ‘Guys’ audio release. Does it sound like someone speaking from a position of familiarity and authority?
Was this someone known to the girls? A parent of a friend, a coach, someone in the school system, a friend of the family, someone they would have encountered on a somewhat regular basis enough to recognize?
One problem here is the alleged reference by Abby to ‘the creepy guy and of course his voice should have been identified if he was a familiar person by now.
Also I don’t know how much significance to give to Doug Carter’s words from several years ago. I feel like we’re stuck spinning our wheels and it’s frustrating but I agree with the poster who said it’s an ‘us’ problem.

It appears that the girls had already encountered BG before the end of the bridge or Abby wouldn't have mentioned a "creepy guy"(Becky or Anna's words) in the video. He might have greeted them when they came onto the trail trying to make them feel at ease. "Guys" sounds like a greeting (different tone than "down the hill"). Maybe he was trying to sound like a nice cordial guy. Maybe they ignored him or giggled at him and he didn't like that. Set him off rage-wise. He could be another Israel Keyes.

 

[scapa]

Agree, such a good point about shift work! But there’s something that nags at me. And this is a load of speculation of course.
What if BG did have a regular 9-5 job, but that day was a school calendar day off, like the girls had?
Doug Carter said, among other things, you may work here, what will those closest to you think… it implies to me that the suspect has a reputation in good standing, someone who should be trustworthy.
The statement coincides with the ‘Guys’ audio release. Does it sound like someone speaking from a position of familiarity and authority?
Was this someone known to the girls? A parent of a friend, a coach, someone in the school system, a friend of the family, someone they would have encountered on a somewhat regular basis enough to recognize?
One problem here is the alleged reference by Abby to ‘the creepy guy and of course his voice should have been identified if he was a familiar person by now.
Also I don’t know how much significance to give to Doug Carter’s words from several years ago. I feel like we’re stuck spinning our wheels and it’s frustrating but I agree with the poster who said it’s an ‘us’ problem.

This is an interesting discussion -- and an interestingly meta-level one -- with plenty of good points raised.

I'd only add that it's an "us problem" to the extent that LE correctly expects to realize no investigative benefits by sharing info with an engaged public. We've seen plenty of cases in which the public are "invited in" to an investigation (with obvious limitations) and end up helping. We've also examples of investigations that become overwhelmed by public interest, of course.

17 Unsolved Murders That Could Use Help From Citizen Detectives

From teen victims Liberty German and Abigail Williams to Alonzo Brooks to the 'Jennings 8' and more, we look at some murder cases that investigators could use the public's help in solving.

www.aetv.com

Reddit tip leads to arrest of suspect in hit-and-run that killed Eatonville cyclist

EATONVILLE, Wash. - A 37-year-old man has been arrested in connection of a deadly hit-and-run crash that killed a bicyclist last Thursday.Susan Rainwater was riding her bike on SR-7 nearing 320th Street East when a pickup truck approaching behind her veere

komonews.com

Etc.

I think one issue in this case is the feeling that there may have been real and important benefits to recruiting that public early on, and that the relative silence surrounding the case from LE has to do not only with investigative security (absolutely important) but with sensitivity to criticism and an ongoing distrust of the public they ostensibly serve.

Who knows, and time will tell, when (hopefully not if) the Delphi murders are solved. But I tend to think that the Carter and the ISP are not immune to the "us problem."

 

[TL4S]

I think one issue in this case is the feeling that there may have been real and important benefits to recruiting that public early on, and that the relative silence surrounding the case from LE has to do not only with investigative security (absolutely important) but with sensitivity to criticism and an ongoing distrust of the public they ostensibly serve.

RSBM.
This makes a lot of sense, imo. I would add that if one or both of the girls, who were minors at the time, were involved in anything of a CSAM nature online, and/or images exist somewhere out there, it might have been not only important to the larger CSAM case to keep details out of the public forum, but also to protect the reputation and privacy of the girls and their families.

We can only speculate on what caused the April 2019 New Direction to come about, but I would assume all investigations evolve over time. For example, what if LE suddenly discovered an image of the CS, and that is what caused the shift? That might explain why DC seemed unusually upset at the PC, talking about how the killer had left them, and why such a drastic change in strategy. That's just one idea.

Perhaps a lot of the details the public craves would actually be appalling and of no help to the investigation. I wouldn't want that out there.

 

[IQuestion]

I believe this refers to "The Murder Sheet" 23 August episode, "The FBI and the Lost Tape".

Murder Sheet

The Murder Sheet is a weekly true crime podcast hosted by journalist Áine Cain and attorney Kevin Greenlee. We take a journalistic approach to covefing true crime. We have broken national news on major cases, like the Delphi murders and the Burger Chef murders. We also cover plenty of other...

art19.com

JmRyan, High jacking your link to Murdersheet, Aug. 23rd episode. @ towards the end of the podcast (about 25 minutes into)
.."the FBI is directly responsible for making a huge blunder in the case." OUCH!!!
"Kegan Kline had searched for the location of the Marathon Gas Station in Delphi on the day of the murders."
If investigators know this, then wouldn't they know exactly what time that search took place and even more interesting specifically stating KAK made the search. Was it right after the girls announced/posted they would be going to MHB? Wonder how they know it was KAK, not just from his house or hi-jacked wifi but, specifically KAK. Hmmm, search made on his password protected cell phone???
This also points back to "bs answer" story KAK gave to BarMacD when he said he wouldn't even know how to get to Delphi. (Well, his lips were moving, huh?)
"edited" because no matter how hard I try to get it right, I always miss something.

 

[JnRyan]

JmRyan, High jacking your link to Murdersheet, Aug. 23rd episode. @ towards the end of the podcast (about 25 minutes into)
.."the FBI is directly responsible for making a huge blunder in the case." OUCH!!!
"Kegan Kline had searched for the location of the Marathon Gas Station in Delphi on the day of the murders."
If investigators know this, then wouldn't they know exactly what time that search took place and even more interesting specifically stating KAK made the search. Was it right after the girls announced/posted they would be going to MHB? Wonder how they know it was KAK, not just from his house or hi-jacked wifi but, specifically KAK. Hmmm, search made on his password protected cell phone???
This also points back to "bs answer" story KAK gave to BarMacD when he said he wouldn't even know how to get to Delphi. (Well, his lips were moving, huh?)
"edited" because no matter how hard I try to get it right, I always miss something.

Even without the gas station search, it sounds bs. I grew up in a much smaller community than I do now. There are still communities with an hour and a half of that area that I had never been to. Some of them smaller than Delphi. But if I had heard of them I had a general idea of how to get there and I didn't have Google.

 

[IQuestion]

Even without the gas station search, it sounds bs. I grew up in a much smaller community than I do now. There are still communities with an hour and a half of that area that I had never been to. Some of them smaller than Delphi. But if I had heard of them I had a general idea of how to get there and I didn't have Google.

Great point JnR!! He grew up in the area and at least would know the names of high schools that competed against each other in sports, and if he ever watched local news, they would constantly be mentioning events/people/crime/weather of neighboring communities etc for the last 20 years. (but then again, his lips were moving, huh?)

 

[sandy_80]

I had an epiphany in 2003 which caused me to realize, as you said @AC4RD, that there is so much known only to LE.

For me it was when LE raided Michael Jackson's Neverland Ranch. That hit the news, and I was wondering why in the world the police would be tearing up the ranch of good old Michael Jackson? When they found what they found in the secret rooms, I realized that police keep things under wraps until the public has a right to know. They can't compromise an investigation where the public will intrude with theories that are not factually based, and where the public takes immediate sides about guilt or innocence.

Do police mess up at times? I'm sure. But overall they know A LOT that we, the chattering inquiring minds, don't know.

Nearly two years after 9/11, I asked my cousin if he thought I'd be safe to go see the Macy's Fourth of July fireworks. He's a Federal detective who at the time was on a NYC terrorist task force. He said I would be, but he absolutely would not tell me why or how he knew or anything specific at all. It's privileged information and even though it's not as though I'd blab classified info all around Manhattan, he is trained to keep info within the LE ranks where it belongs.

Personally I vacillate all the time between which person or persons I suspect, and sometimes I think it was a drifter passing through who is now gone with the wind.

But I don't know anything that has not been revealed by those who hold the evidence, and that is LE.

Of course I hope this case is solved any second now, but I agree that it's we, the public, who is constantly inserting our conjecture, speculation and theories into this case.

JMO

do you mean this tunnel vision ( kak and his dad ) theory is a public and media invention and isnt the responsibility of LE ? cause then everyone would be rebutting this by referring me to ( they asked about this account right )

 

[sandy_80]

this info about the funds for indiana police might mean somthing or not

More than $3.3 million awarded to Indiana law enforcement agencies to prevent crime

they have until the end of year to use the funds or lose it.. is it linked to this mysterious search that is unprecedented in length ? IDK

 

[IQuestion]

While we have a "news lull" since KAK's field trip to the river, thought I would bring up something I speculated about months ago...his searches on the OJ Simpson case. I figured he was looking for crime scenes photos (and yes they existed and they were gruesome). I had another one of those "what types of things would interest KAK?"...(Not jumping the shark. I've been accused of that before, so no shame here.) If a killer brought a change of clothing to hide the blood on their clothes, you know the one thing they ALWAYS forget? They always forget to change their socks. Anybody want to guess how many days of court discussion pertained to "blood/DNA evidence" on OJ's socks? Did KAK save a pair of his socks as a souvenir? Maybe that is the one item from the crime scene that wasn't destroyed, IDK, but worth noting, IMO....moving rest of discussion to a 2nd post.

 

[TL4S]

While we have a "news lull" since KAK's field trip to the river, thought I would bring up something I speculated about months ago...his searches on the OJ Simpson case. I figured he was looking for crime scenes photos (and yes they existed and they were gruesome). I had another one of those "what types of things would interest KAK?"...(Not jumping the shark. I've been accused of that before, so no shame here.) If a killer brought a change of clothing to hide the blood on their clothes, you know the one thing they ALWAYS forget? They always forget to change their socks. Anybody want to guess how many days of court discussion pertained to "blood/DNA evidence" on OJ's socks? Did KAK save a pair of his socks as a souvenir? Maybe that is the one item from the crime scene that wasn't destroyed, IDK, but worth noting, IMO....moving rest of discussion to a 2nd post.

I never considered that OJ and JBR were searched for to look at photos. That sort of goes along with the Sandy Hook bodies. The searches could have been for other reasons, but still a disturbing thought.

 

[Frankeeeh]

Just watch the BG video frame by frame, and i always thought he was wearing some sort of leather fanny pack... but i changed my mind that's definitely a hand and a watch... But what is that thing at the end of his coat ? it almost look like a fox tale or something... reminds me of objects people attach to there zippers.

 

[Frankeeeh]

Let me correct my self.... isn't that a Sheriff badge ?

 

[Ravenmoon]

Just watch the BG video frame by frame, and i always thought he was wearing some sort of leather fanny pack... but i changed my mind that's definitely a hand and a watch... But what is that thing at the end of his coat ? it almost look like a fox tale or something... reminds me of objects people attach to there zippers.

If that is a watch, it would be on his right arm.
Wouldn't that suggest that this guy is left handed?
Anyone know if father or son happen to be left handed?


JMO

 

[minazoe]

I think it might be something we don't wish to see. mOO

 

[acutename]

That is true, but when you look at the timing of this case, Monday, February 13th, 2017 at a little after 2 pm you have to wonder. The timestamp of the last picture of Abigail Williams is what is interesting.

From my experience most first shifts are 6-2pm while second shift is 3-11pm. When you factor in the time of the crime, I would wonder whether this person had a regular job. There is still 3rd shift work which cannot be ruled out. But I think unless a 3rd shift person went directly home to bed, even that would seem a little strange to me they are walking around the Monon High Bridge trail at the time it is thought this person was there and not at home asleep.

Even a planned meeting would be strange. If, for example, a person took a day off work to meet up with Abby and Libby, I would think they would want to make sure and have already confirmed with Abby and Libby through social media communication that they would meet up. It would certainly be strange to take a day off work without first confirming the girls planned to be there at the Monon High Bridge on Monday, February 13th. This is if you think it is someone the girls met over social media who took the time to travel there.

This crime happened on Monday, February 13th, 2017. The last picture of Abigail Williams on the bridge was taken by Liberty German a little after 2 pm. Many times managers and HR do not work on the weekend so this person would have to let people know by Friday or at the absolute latest, Saturday(if managers and HR are working on a Saturday), that they would be missing work on Monday or leaving work early(to go to the Monon High Bridge). Normally that little notice for missing work is not welcome by most businesses.

After the crime happened this person would have to hope that no one recognizes them from Liberty German's phone video as well as hope no one remembers they took off that particular day. All this taken into consideration, the small town and the job shift, and it makes me wonder if this person lived anywhere near Delphi, Indiana when this crime happened or had any type of shift job. But maybe it was just a vacation day? That is possible. It could have been a last minute vacation day request, even if the business was not happy with it.

I know this stuff is probably not as interesting to others as it is to me. If a person works for a union, though, shift work tends to be common. I know I am basing all this on a timestamp from a picture and a day of the week, but if this is all the information I had then this is how I would look at it. In my opinion, Liberty German's video is important not just for what it shows, but for when it shows it.

this was discussed a long time ago- many restaurants are closed on Mondays- people who work on commissions in sales or real estate or as a business such as plumbing or electrical or other home repair, for example, make their own appointments- people who might work on a weekend in sales or auto repair or in healthcare or in a supermarket could have Mondays off since they had weekend hours. There are a lot of possibilities. Libraries have weekend hours so some of the employees probably have Monday off- Some IT people work nights or weekends to do backups when ordinary business is not ongoing.

 

[acutename]

Even without the gas station search, it sounds bs. I grew up in a much smaller community than I do now. There are still communities with an hour and a half of that area that I had never been to. Some of them smaller than Delphi. But if I had heard of them I had a general idea of how to get there and I didn't have Google.

If you recall, KK has also said that he cannot drive
(not that he does not drive, just that he cannot)

[and it just occurs to me that if KK was supposed to meet LG and
she "did not show up" as he said- how was he going to meet her if neither
he nor she could drive?] I got tired trying to pay attention to his narratives in the
police interview but every time I think a bit, there are new inconsistancies, IMO